The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet-5/Prophet-10 => Topic started by: fairway on November 09, 2020, 11:27:03 AM
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Hello,
I am thinking on getting the Prophet-10 but for vintage reasons I would also like to be able to play it with 5 voices to get this "voice cut" when playing chords. Would I be able to play the Prophet-10 like a Prophet-5?
Kind regards
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Hello,
I am thinking on getting the Prophet-10 but for vintage reasons I would also like to be able to play it with 5 voices to get this "voice cut" when playing chords. Would I be able to play the Prophet-10 like a Prophet-5?
Kind regards
I am in the same boat, and I've heard many others elsewhere wondering same...last I heard, it was being considered. I'm probably going to hold off on my purchase for a while until the decision materializes.
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Hello,
I am thinking on getting the Prophet-10 but for vintage reasons I would also like to be able to play it with 5 voices to get this "voice cut" when playing chords. Would I be able to play the Prophet-10 like a Prophet-5?
Kind regards
You could remove the 2nd voice board...
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Hello,
I am thinking on getting the Prophet-10 but for vintage reasons I would also like to be able to play it with 5 voices to get this "voice cut" when playing chords. Would I be able to play the Prophet-10 like a Prophet-5?
Kind regards
You could remove the 2nd voice board...
I think ease of toggling back and forth between 5 and 10 (or even better being able to set it to a value in between to imitate voice stealing on 6 and 8 note vintage synths) is probably a key wish list item for a lot of folks.
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It's not for me. If you want a new Prophet 5, buy one. I think more voices is better. 10's all the fingers I have, so it's a good number. 16 and 32 were dreamed up by programmers.
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It's not for me. If you want a new Prophet 5, buy one. I think more voices is better. 10's all the fingers I have, so it's a good number. 16 and 32 were dreamed up by programmers.
Sometimes additional voices are good and sometimes they get in the way.. some folks would like to capture the sound of the voice stealing on the P5 for faithful vintage recreations, but also have access to the entire 10 voices on the unit. To me limiting the voice count seems like a very reasonable feature request for a $4300 synth.
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... 16 and 32 were dreamed up by programmers.
Play a two bass notes and and a four note chord on the right hand. Then two different bass notes and another four notes on the right. This would need 12 voices if the release is not longer than the tempo you change the chords.
And if you use a sustain pedal (in hold mode), you may even use more voices.
The actual needed voice number depends on playing style and the result you would like to get. If you like chords blend from one to another, you may even need more than 10 voices.
And if you got split and layer function, you might even need more voices easily. So the numbers are not dreamed up by programmers.
I got a Prophet 10 Rev4. And the number of voices is OK most of the times. But I did had some voice stealing happening. But these were in rather extreme situations. Not everyday use.
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... 16 and 32 were dreamed up by programmers.
Play a two bass notes and and a four note chord on the right hand. Then two different bass notes and another four notes on the right. This would need 12 voices if the release is not longer than the tempo you change the chords.
And if you use a sustain pedal (in hold mode), you may even use more voices.
The actual needed voice number depends on playing style and the result you would like to get. If you like chords blend from one to another, you may even need more than 10 voices.
And if you got split and layer function, you might even need more voices easily. So the numbers are not dreamed up by programmers.
I got a Prophet 10 Rev4. And the number of voices is OK most of the times. But I did had some voice stealing happening. But these were in rather extreme situations. Not everyday use.
Another factor is the nature of the sound being used.. a voice count that works with a patch with piano-like properties may have a different requirement than a fat poly pad sound.
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I admit, with my interest in the Prophet 10, I have ZERO interest in recreating any vintage songs/tracks that used voice stealing to 'good effect'. I'm not a fan of voice stealing in general and can think of only ONE of my own songs where it WAS used to good effect (on an ratty old MS2000 VA with 4 voice poly where it may not have sounded the same with 8.. or 10 voices). In fact I have zero interest in re-creating ANY famous P5 patches/songs/covers...I want a P10 for NEW sounds for my OWN music, and there I do not want poly limits killing things.
However, the case of using something due to limitations and making the best of it (P5 in the past) still applies to P10, it's a different thing with the luxury of NOT having to have voices stolen so obviously and that is more desirable for me by a long shot. Also 6 voices are minimum for me really, the MS2000 and previous JD-XA (4 voices) drove me mad as I'm a 'player'. 6 voice synths have never been a problem even with voice stealing but still not ideal, 5 is a bridge too far imo.
Having sold all my other sequentials (Prophet 6, OB-6 and '08 Rev 2) I'm gonna grab a Prophet 10 to go with my Prologue 16 and have gotten used to having the polyphony there when I need it, esp as someone who plays 4,5 note chords a lot and would like to go from one to the next without an immediate and ugly voice cut off (sure it has its places but few and far between vs the more natural high poly). 10 voices is an ideal number for me, love that they made the 10 and it feels like the 'real' upgrade to this 2020 model/rev 4 is the voice count in a P5 format with reliability. Obviously the 2 filter choices are also a massive bonus. But a 10 voice prophet 5 with extras that looks and feels pretty much the same as the legend is a dream come true for many of us!
Part of me originally wished for a voice cut switch to mimic the legendary P5, but in all honesty, once I was over that novelty i'd prob never use it again and stick to 10 voices which just feels natural, playable and musical.
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I'm a P10 owner. I would like the ability to toggle to P5 voice limitation mode. I'm not sure some of the 10 owners here fully understand what voice stealing actually sounds like. "In the Air Tonight" is using the limitations of of the P5 to good effect. There's a D octave pair being held in the left hand and cycling 3-note chords (Dm, C, A#) are being played with the right. When the right hand chords change, the previous 3-note chord is cut off in favor of the new chord.
You can play this on a P10 and tinker with the amp sustain and releasee to get it close, and it will sound like the song, but the abrupt chordal note cutoff as the new chord hits won't be there. The transitions will be different.
The list of classic songs with that voice limitation effect is long and is heard on "Everything in it's Right Place" by Radiohead and many others you know well.
If Sequential went as far as including SSM/SSI to CEM capabilities and a vintage knob on the Prophet for historical accuracy, then 5-note mode on the 10 should be an easy decision.
...Sequential is probably is just pondering a way to make it clear to the user that they are IN that mode so they aren't fielding "broken voice card" support queries constantly. :)
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I understand what you're saying and it would be a nice extra retro feature. I hope they consider it if it's possible.
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Covered in a previous thread: https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,4708.0.html
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Covered in a previous thread: https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,4708.0.html
Thanks extempo - as a new owner didn't see the original thread. Hopefully the input from my post can help to bolster the idea of 5v mode down the line.
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Covered in a previous thread: https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,4708.0.html
Thanks extempo - as a new owner didn't see the original thread. Hopefully the input from my post can help to bolster the idea of 5v mode down the line.
I think it's useful to have a thread on this topic that's not locked, to help gauge the level of customer interest in this feature. Videos are starting to emerge on topics such as poly glide that are more musically useful when limited to 5 voices, so for Sequential to have a way to gauge interest in this feature I think is as important as other topics (such as vintage knob for P6/OB6 etc) that get discussed here. Personally still holding off on a purchase until I see where this lands.
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I first ordered the P5 to immediatly switch to a P10 after thinking over. After getting my synth I'm glad to have the 10 voices. Plus I can just pull the voice board if I ever need the 5 voice stealing. But that will probably never happen. ;-)
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Hello,
I am thinking on getting the Prophet-10 but for vintage reasons I would also like to be able to play it with 5 voices to get this "voice cut" when playing chords. Would I be able to play the Prophet-10 like a Prophet-5?
Kind regards
You could remove the 2nd voice board...
And then give it to me . :)
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According to this thread (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/815140-quot-classic-quot-prophet-5-bass-songs-4.html) the original P5 and P10 had voice deactivation.
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According to this thread (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/815140-quot-classic-quot-prophet-5-bass-songs-4.html) the original P5 and P10 had voice deactivation.
I can't seem to modify my earlier post, but wanted to post an update. Confirmed in original manual (see "voice defeat"):
https://yo41t1y5gos9jw8f3lptw0xo-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Prophet-10-Users-Guide-1.2.pdf
Although it wasn't intended for the same use that us P10 owners would like it for (to properly emulate voice stealing on the P5)... it goes to show that some voice defeat mechanism added would indeed make the Rev 4 true to its pedigree.
I would be fine if with me if the feature reset to maximum voices on power down, FWIW. Aside from the useful musical purpose, it would also be useful for troubleshooting purposes.
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Hi everyone, I'm new here. Just wanted to say hi and add my voice to these requests for a voice defeat option, in whatever way it can be best implemented, for the Prophet 10.
Thank you for your awesome customer support, and this truly amazing inspiring synth!
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Apologies, I posted the wrong link above to the original owners manual citing the source for voice defeat option. Wish I could modify messages more than a couple of mins after posting.
http://www.synthfool.com/docs/SequentialCircuits/Prophet_Series/Sequential%20Circuits%20Prophet%205%20Owners%20Manual.pdf
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Interesting on the voice defeat information. I’m honestly about to pull the daughter card out of my prophet 10 to make a p5. While I like that I ordered a 10 for some situation when I’m layering VCO’s, I like the way the 5 acts. I really hope they implement this in firmware… Maybe somehow tie it into holding down the unison button and another button while selecting the number of voices you would like to have active.
The Moog Matriarch has around 40 user settings and controls like this which are implemented via keyboard notes (keys). Not sure I like that for this application but it’s an option.
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Interesting on the voice defeat information. I’m honestly about to pull the daughter card out of my prophet 10 to make a p5. While I like that I ordered a 10 for some situation when I’m layering VCO’s, I like the way the 5 acts. I really hope they implement this in firmware… Maybe somehow tie it into holding down the unison button and another button while selecting the number of voices you would like to have active.
The Moog Matriarch has around 40 user settings and controls like this which are implemented via keyboard notes (keys). Not sure I like that for this application but it’s an option.
The "vintage knob" functionality on the P6 and OB6 gives a third page of globals by pressing Bank + Global, so there are many possibilities in terms of the user interface for adding the feature. On the original, you just hold down a key, and press Program Select 1 and 8 at same time to defeat that voice (but it is reset on power cycle). Ideally, I'd like to see the number of voices settable in globals or per patch, but wouldn't complain if it reset on power cycle like the original.
It seems that one advantage of the way it is on the original is that by allowing you to disable a specific voice, in theory, if one doesn't like the way a particular voice is behaving due to variation introduced by the vintage knob, they could disable just that voice. Some very interesting possibilities there.
I too am very hopeful this will be implemented. The 5 voice limit is an important feature of some of the tunes created with the original P5.
I know some might say "if you want 5 voices get the 5".... but the argument that says "a reissue should honor the features of the original" (voice defeat in this case) is a far stronger argument.
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I too am very hopeful this will be implemented. The 5 voice limit is an important feature of some of the tunes created with the original P5.
I know some might say "if you want 5 voices get the 5".... but the argument that says "a reissue should honor the features of the original" (voice defeat in this case) is a far stronger argument.
Ok, this is great and I'm actually optimistic that a voice defeat is coming based on your post above. As I said I'm glad I have a 10 for those times when I want 20 VCO's catching up with one another. BUT there are times when I wan't to play octaves in the bass and triads in the treble and have voices cancelling each other out.
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I did it. Last night I removed my daughter card and closed everything back up. I carefully wrapped that voice card in an anti-static bag and stored it.
It really feels now like a historical prophet five.. it’s still good to have the option to put it back in later when I want to tinker with 20 VCO’s but I’m gonna keep it as a prophet five for now.
I did update to 1.2.0 before I pulled the card because I wasn’t sure if the firmware was writing anything to the secondary card although I do doubt it. The nvram/prom is probably on the mainboard only.
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I did it. Last night I removed my daughter card and closed everything back up. I carefully wrapped that voice card in an anti-static bag and stored it.
It really feels now like a historical prophet five.. it’s still good to have the option to put it back in later when I want to tinker with 20 VCO’s but I’m gonna keep it as a prophet five for now.
I did update to 1.2.0 before I pulled the card because I wasn’t sure if the firmware was writing anything to the secondary card although I do doubt it. The nvram/prom is probably on the mainboard only.
I'm glad to hear you're happy with the results, but if being honest I liked it better when you were on my team lobbying for a software defeat :).
I'd like the ability to toggle between 5 and 10 voices rapidly. Even better, being able to set it to 6 or 8 voices would be a dream come true for those looking to specifically replicate voice behavior on some 6 or 8 voice vintage synths.
I also believe it may lead to higher support or replacement board costs to Sequential if folks are regularly removing hardware components to do something that could be solved with a simple software solution.
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I'm glad to hear you're happy with the results, but if being honest I liked it better when you were on my team lobbying for a software defeat :).
I'd like the ability to toggle between 5 and 10 voices rapidly. Even better, being able to set it to 6 or 8 voices would be a dream come true for those looking to specifically replicate voice behavior on some 6 or 8 voice vintage synths.
I also believe it may lead to higher support or replacement board costs to Sequential if folks are regularly removing hardware components to do something that could be solved with a simple software solution.
Oh I'm still on your team lobbying for a voice defeat option. And I will put my card back in WHEN that is released because we all love those big 20 VCO UNISON patches.
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Just found out, that the OB-6 has a voice defeat feature, too. Carson is saying that in the video below.
https://youtu.be/s_XR7ruZEq8?t=1253
He didn't mention if the feature is activated by software with some key presses, or automatically when removing such a voice card. Does anyone know that?
If it's done per software, perhaps there's really hope, that they will implement it for the P5/10, too.
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Just found out, that the OB-6 has a voice defeat feature, too. Carson is saying that in the video below.
https://youtu.be/s_XR7ruZEq8?t=1253
He didn't mention if the feature is activated by software with some key presses, or automatically when removing such a voice card. Does anyone know that?
If it's done per software, perhaps there's really hope, that they will implement it for the P5/10, too.
Great find jok3r!
After seeing the thread below, I confirmed that holding down a key, then pressing Portamento + Hold on the OB6 does defeat that voice. Same works for Prophet 6 (substitute Glide button for Portamento). The Prophet 5/10 has only a knob for glide, so most likely the defeat option is there under another combination, this morning I don't have time to experiment but may do so this evening or over the weekend. Maybe someone at Sequential could chime in and let us know what it is?
And assuming it's there, it's a great troubleshooting tool and something that has some very useful musical possibilities!
But, it's also not quite what I'm hoping for -- I still would like to be able to specify the number of voices, and adjust that value without powering down the synth. It is okay with me if it resets to the default 10 voices on powering back up, I just don't want to have to power down to go from say 5 to 10 and back again.
(OB6 voice defeat thread): https://forum.sequential.com/index.php?topic=2640.0#:~:text=Voice%20Defeat%3A,gets%20ignored%20until%20power%20off.
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Wow, the Glide-Hold shortcut works on the Rev2 as well!! Succesfully turned my Rev2-16 into a Rev2-2 to test it. So I would guess it seems to be one of Sequential team's default debugging tools and chances are high they implemented it in the P5, too.
Now I have to send a new feature request in the Rev2 sub forum 8)
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Wow, the Glide-Hold shortcut works on the Rev2 as well!! Succesfully turned my Rev2-16 into a Rev2-2 to test it. So I would guess it seems to be one of Sequential team's default debugging tools and chances are high they implemented it in the P5, too.
Now I have to send a new feature request in the Rev2 sub forum 8)
I wouldn't mind to have it on my Rev2 as well, but it's far lower priority there than the P10, because I can easily use Rev2 as an 8 voice synth already by simply using multi-mode and ignoring one layer.
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Yes, but having 8 voices is some times still too much, especially when using polyphonic glide. I like 5-6 voices for that, because the glides are more predictable and for my taste more musically. Now I know this, I can easily do that at home in my studio, but on stage this is quite difficult to do.
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Yes, but having 8 voices is some times still too much, especially when using polyphonic glide. I like 5-6 voices for that, because the glides are more predictable and for my taste more musically. Now I know this, I can easily do that at home in my studio, but on stage this is quite difficult to do.
I agree. But 8 voices are great when stack two sounds as in some Oberheims. The 5 voices of the P5 suite me perfectly. Its easy to forget how much fix and tricks it was earlier to achieve what we take for granted with instruments today. Unlimited stacking is no problem today with unlimited tracks with modern DAWs as well as computer based tools beyond imagination when the Prophet 5 first was invented. After all the P5/10 is a time machine back to the 70s/80s and can be used in our modern time of computer power.
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Voice limit mode now available: https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,4873.0.html
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This is awesome news!!! Thank you so much Sequential!
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WOW! Fantastic news indeed.... I love this company :)
Can't wait to try all three of these (5 voice limit, voice allocation mode choice and poly unison)
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Well, I guess now I am definitely in on a P10 at the end of the year... If I can basically turn it in a P5 now for some special use cases, I better save up some more bucks and get the whole package...
Now I just have to figure out where to get one of the original Prophet~5 batches for the front panel ;-) It just looks cooler ;-) Nobody needs to know that it has 10 voices ;D
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A big THANK YOU Sequential for this 1.5 update.
Now all my wishes for functionality are fulfilled.
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A big THANK YOU Sequential for this 1.5 update.
Now all my wishes for functionality are fulfilled.
I agree completely. BUT now the nerds need a velcro nameplate ::)
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Fantastic. Thanks guys. I'll be putting my daughter card back in the P10 tonight!
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And all was good in the lands.
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And all was good in the lands.
It seems to work great, and the usefulness of this feature is greatly underrated. Less voices may seem like a limitation at times, but (and particularly for recapturing the characteristics of music made with vintage P5 back in the day), the musical impact this can have on playing is substantial.
Since I had already gotten accustomed to using the synth with 10 voices, the note stealing is immediately felt when in 5 voice mode, so I feel blessed to have the option for both... I will use both modes regularly.
Very nicely done Sequential!
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It's great to now have the option, but am still glad I got the 10 and will use it in 10 voice mode mainly. I don't like note stealing and can't even play my 2 low note + 4 note chords on a P5 :/
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It's great to now have the option, but am still glad I got the 10 and will use it in 10 voice mode mainly. I don't like note stealing and can't even play my 2 low note + 4 note chords on a P5 :/
I too am glad I got the 10 - especially for poly unison mode! If you don't like the musical characteristic the note stealing brings when playing 5 notes at a time, it may not be your thing, but to me it is the stand-out feature of the P10.
To my ears, there are times when five notes just sounds so authentically vintage!
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How does the poly-unison mode compare to the 5-voice mode compare soundwise? Is this effect always really heavy, or could you use it as a "per patch 5 voice mode"?
For example I have only one song my whole set list, that would benefit from only having 5 voices... and I don't want to change any globals during the show (because it happens too often that I forget to revert the changes before the next song... so all my programming is usually done in a way that I press only one knob to get to the setup of the next song on all my synth simultaneously without having to remember any special configurations). The song needs a very simple pad sound that is based on two slightly detuned saw waves. So could I do this by using only one oscillator in poly unison mode and turning up the unison detune instead of detuning two oscillators like I would do it usually? Or are the configurable amounts of unison detune to heavy to achieve such a result? Is the lowest level of unison detune "no detune at all"? In this case a little bit of vintage knob could do the trick for me also...
I don't have any hands on experience yet and it will take some more time until I saved up for the P10. So perhaps some of you lucky owners could tell me something about the behaviour. This will not change my decision to buy a P10 at all... I just can't wait to try this myself. ;D
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How does the poly-unison mode compare to the 5-voice mode compare soundwise? Is this effect always really heavy, or could you use it as a "per patch 5 voice mode"?
You could do that. The poly unison mode is 2 voices so detuning unison on a single oscillator in this mode is a similar in effect to using two oscillators and detuning, but because unison detune settings is 1-8 you're going to have a lot more flexibility in the tuning amount by using 2 oscillators only.
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How does the poly-unison mode compare to the 5-voice mode compare soundwise? Is this effect always really heavy, or could you use it as a "per patch 5 voice mode"?
You could do that. The poly unison mode is 2 voices so detuning unison on a single oscillator in this mode is a similar in effect to using two oscillators and detuning, but because unison detune settings is 1-8 you're going to have a lot more flexibility in the tuning amount by using 2 oscillators only.
Well, yes. That's basically the question: how subtle or heavy are the 8 steps of unison detune? Is '1' no detuning at all? Is '2' still subtle or already more than say 3-5 cents (or your definition of a small amount of detune)?
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How does the poly-unison mode compare to the 5-voice mode compare soundwise? Is this effect always really heavy, or could you use it as a "per patch 5 voice mode"?
You could do that. The poly unison mode is 2 voices so detuning unison on a single oscillator in this mode is a similar in effect to using two oscillators and detuning, but because unison detune settings is 1-8 you're going to have a lot more flexibility in the tuning amount by using 2 oscillators only.
Well, yes. That's basically the question: how subtle or heavy are the 8 steps of unison detune? Is '1' no detuning at all? Is '2' still subtle or already more than say 3-5 cents (or your definition of a small amount of detune)?
It's more than my definition of a small amount of detune. Non-scientifically, think of a typical detuning knob where the possible values have been simplified down to only 8, where 8=100%. It's going to get messy fast after about 3-4 if playing many notes, its not a subtle effect like the vintage knob.
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Ok. Thanks for your opinion on that. There's only one question left: is preset button '1' no detuning at all? Or is poly unison always a little detuned?
Just to be clear... the manual says "With the unison switch held down, use the programselectswitches to set the amount of detuning. A setting of 0 is minimum detuning. A setting of 8 is maximum detuning."
a) there is no '0' button, so I guess '1' is what they were meaning.
b) minimal == none?
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Ok. Thanks for your opinion on that. There's only one question left: is preset button '1' no detuning at all? Or is poly unison always a little detuned?
Just to be clear... the manual says "With the unison switch held down, use the programselectswitches to set the amount of detuning. A setting of 0 is minimum detuning. A setting of 8 is maximum detuning."
a) there is no '0' button, so I guess '1' is what they were meaning.
b) minimal == none?
1 is no detune, its the default. Basically on an init patch and engaging poly unison and playing 1 note is the same as using regular unison and setting it to use 2 voices.
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FWIW I pretty much stick to either '1' or '2' on my unison patches, I like SOME detune but I don't like a LOT of detune on unison as it ends up sounding like a god-awful supersaw JP-8000 trance thing which I DETEST (makes me vomit).
That is on any synth, not specific to the new rev 4s.
To answer more about POLY UNISON, on my P10 if I leave it at '1' you can use the vintage knob to bring in some thickness between the 4 oscs/2 layers which is a little more subtle (and there's nothing wrong with the modern '4' either if that's what you want). Sometimes, depending on how detuned the poly patch already is (or not) I may hit '2' for amount of detune and this generally sounds about right for most things, mono or poly unison, I doubt I'd use 3+ but that's just me.
Either way if you're trying to just play like a P5 for some songs so turn PU2 on, I'd advise backing off the osc 2 fine tune to have a little less beating, reduce the 'vintage' knob (rather increase the number towards 4) so your basic patch is a little less wild, then hit PU2 with detune of 1 - so you have as close now to an non unsion sounding 5 voice patch that just sounds thicker and beefier without sounding wild. The PU2 on the Prophet 10 sounds great though so I wouldn't over think it, for many sounds just hitting PU2 and not adjusting anything (even with a detune of 2) is going to rock and just sound 'better' esp live if you're wanting it to cut through?
I don't use PU2 yet SO often, as I really do love 10 voice poly more than 4 osc poly.. so organic and flowing, I personaly do NOT like note stealing unless it's for a specific sequence (chords) for a specific effect, which is rare, but when playing properly I hate note stealing so it stays in Round robin 10 voice 90% of the time here, the other 10% in poly unsion (5 voice), never in plain old 5 voice non unison which is not my bag.