The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Other Hardware/Software => Topic started by: Sacred Synthesis on September 30, 2015, 07:52:06 PM
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It's hard to imagine the synthesizer world without the Moog Voyager, and yet, production of it is coming to an end. I must admit that, still, when I think of the synthesizer in a general way, the first image that comes to my mind is my old Minimoog Model D. The Voyager has been for almost fifteen years the next best thing. When I got back into synthesizer six or seven years ago, the first thing I did was buy a Voyager and then a Prophet '08. It was a gorgeous piece of musical furniture - a pleasure to play as well as to admire - although I eventually sold it and bought a second Prophet '08, as I slowly learned I had more of an ear for the DSI sound.
I suppose this will be a boost for the Pro 2, and possibly for the forthcoming Vermona 14 as well. But it also begs an obvious question: What's up Moog's sleeve? There is now an immense gap between the Moog Sub 37 and the Moog modulars. Surely something new is soon going to fill this gap. Any information? Any educated guesses?
The Mother 32 will certainly be an interesting instrument to watch (I don't know if this image is authentic.):
http://i.imgur.com/y2MYsGb.jpg
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From reading the unofficial DSI forum my impression is that the OS and the voice boards of Moog Voyager could benefit from an update both on the analog electronics and digital control sides of things. So my guess is that Moog are working on a new flagship instrument that will be more expressive and possibly even cheaper. I mean look at how much more front panel controls Sub37 got compared to L*ttl* Ph*tt*. There are certainly room for improvements. And one could even imagine some of the analog electronics design ideas progressing from the Voyager into the new instrument. But it will be different and it will sound different.
Regarding Pro2 I honestly think it needs some external VCO module assistance. Finally someone made such a demo (via unofficial forum):
https://youtu.be/5L0MTS8w_WA
Looking forward to the next demo version with three VCOs, four DCOs with super waves and using the delays for chorus. That could sound lovely. And lets not forget that given Moogs entry into eurorack world there is a chance they could make VCO and VCF modules that can integrate well with Pro2. But that may end up costing more than a Voyager.
PS: It was a Voyager Old School that you had, right?
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My prediction is that the Voyager will be replaced with something Voyager-like in form factor, in the same way that the Little Phatty was replaced by something Phatty-like. My further prediction is that it will be a continuation of the Minimoog line. It'll be called "Minimoog Some Word."
The Moog Eurorack rumors are interesting, but I hope they don't give up on wood cabinets.
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PS: It was a Voyager Old School that you had, right?
Yes, it was a Voyager Old School. I never liked the touch surface of the other editions and wanted to polish my programming abilities without the crutch of memory. But I was disappointed in general with the tone of the sawtooth waveform and frustrated that, in order to have simultaneous vibrato and PWM, you had to sacrifice the third oscillator. I did buy a Moog CP-251, and that helped, but it was a hefty price to pay for one LFO.
The Sub 37, although having too small a keyboard and lacking the ability to delay vibrato by controlling modulation depth with an envelope (as far as I know), is much more to my liking and sounds much nicer. I've come very close several times to buying one, but every time, the small size makes me change my mind. I'm a big synthesizer guy.
I hope Moog expands on the Sub 37 idea and builds a larger monophonic instrument. I expect they will, since mono is their heritage.
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My prediction is that the Voyager will be replaced with something Voyager-like in form factor, in the same way that the Little Phatty was replaced by something Phatty-like. My further prediction is that it will be a continuation of the Minimoog line. It'll be called "Minimoog Some Word."
No, the "Minimoog Some Word" would be an awful name. It's too vague. ;D
But yes, It's difficult to imagine Moog without a Minimoog, without something that looks like a Minimoog. I, too, expect it will be revived, perhaps with all-new circuitry and a different sound. After being away from synthesis for so many years, I was amazed how unstable the oscillators still were at this late date in synthesizer development. Even though Moog removed the A-440 tuning tone from the new Minimoog design, the instrument still needed to be repeatedly retuned after warm-up. I started to wish the tone was still there for retuning by head phones. (For those who never experienced it many years ago, that's what you'd have to do in the middle of a set/performance - put on your head phones and retune the Model D to that tone.) It's probably what made me appreciate the DCO, even though digital control violated my analog purity ideal. All things considered, I slowly shifted in my tastes from Moog to DSI, regarding both sound and voice architecture. Now I would find it difficult to work without the standard 4 oscillator/4-and 2-pole filter/4 LFO/3 envelope DSI design.
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This was my set up about six years ago in our old crowded apartment, and then the set up now:
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Your new studio certainly looks more Smithy these days. ;-)
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It sure does, and it works much better for me now. But I still have an inherent respect for things Moog, especially the Minimoog.
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Me too! Look forward to see you get your first discrete electronics machine with tuning stabilized VCO's and a better sounding filter. Had any chance to pet a Prophet-6 or a Pro2 yet?
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More info, linked to from the Moog Music Facebook page, so presumably accurate:
http://thecreatorsproject.vice.com/blog/moogs-new-synth
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PS: It was a Voyager Old School that you had, right?
Yes, it was a Voyager Old School. I never liked the touch surface of the other editions and wanted to polish my programming abilities without the crutch of memory. But I was disappointed in general with the tone of the sawtooth waveform and frustrated that, in order to have simultaneous vibrato and PWM, you had to sacrifice the third oscillator. I did buy a Moog CP-251, and that helped, but it was a hefty price to pay for one LFO.
The Sub 37, although having too small a keyboard and lacking the ability to delay vibrato by controlling modulation depth with an envelope (as far as I know), is much more to my liking and sounds much nicer. I've come very close several times to buying one, but every time, the small size makes me change my mind. I'm a big synthesizer guy.
I hope Moog expands on the Sub 37 idea and builds a larger monophonic instrument. I expect they will, since mono is their heritage.
It is the triangle for me that kills it, really nasty I don't know what they were thinking about.
I still really like my Voyager though, it is basically a "One trick pony" of a synth, but something about it appeals to me. I guess because as long as you stick to what it is good at it sounds pretty good. And of course it's visually apealing. The knobs are really nice as well.
I tend to keep mine in "Panel Mode". where it acts like the XL. I use a VX-251 and MP-201 with it doing multiple roles with my modular, I think it's a sad day that they are getting rid of it.
The new Mother-32 looks interesting, been looking for somewhere in the UK to order it from but no luck yet...
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Official intro video for Moog Mother- 32: https://youtu.be/GCJacEzcU7A
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Sacred Synthesis: As somebody who has long been a critic of modern synth names, what do you think of the name "Mother?" I'll be ever waiting for the other shoe to drop with the introduction of the MotherFooger.
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Honestly I hope to see a HooterFooger first! ;-) . o O ( run for cover )
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Only one oscillator :(
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I still really like my Voyager though, it is basically a "One trick pony" of a synth, but something about it appeals to me. I guess because as long as you stick to what it is good at it sounds pretty good. And of course it's visually appealing. The knobs are really nice as well.
I found the Voyager to have tremendous visual appeal - all that gorgeous wood. It was so hard to sell it. And I've always thought the adjustable control panel was a superb design, especially if the Minimoog was sitting on the top of several keyboards. Sound-wise, again, the sawtooth disappointed me, but the pulse width modulation was as smooth and rich as Kerrygold butter.
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Sacred Synthesis: As somebody who has long been a critic of modern synth names, what do you think of the name "Mother?" I'll be ever waiting for the other shoe to drop with the introduction of the MotherFooger.
You know me too well, Chysn! Yes, the thought occurred to me, but in my naivety I'm trying to give Moog the benefit of the doubt. If such a name is given to it, then that will be one more synthesizer I'll never own.
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Only one oscillator :(
But there's fun to be had in putting together an original synthesizer system. Imagine a DSI Pro 2 controlling a couple of Moog 32s.
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As for the Mother-32 only having one oscillator it still seems to be able to produce both waveforms at the same time. So think about it a bit in the same way as the oscillator section of Doepfer Dark Energy. And there is an external input so that more oscillators can be added.
What I am wondering is if or more likely when Moog releases an analog oscillator eurorack module. Would love to see a great sounding module with variable waveforms like Voyager oscillators and hopefully two or three VCO's in one module including a mixer.
Speaking of multiple VCOs: Would a synth with four VCOs actually work well and be of practical use? I am in my usual voice architecture reflections dreaming of a DSI synth with four VCOs and four digital oscillators (shall we call them PCOs?).
As for the product name discussion I would be a bit worried about the visual appearance of the MoonerFooger, assume that the MuterFooger will have no internal connections while finding the MooterFooger somewhat debatable. So in the end I'll stick with the HooterFooger for its great visual appearance and focused feature set. ;)
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Only one oscillator :(
Sort of par for the course for semi-modulars in this price range (see, for example, Pittsburgh Modular System 10 and Dark Energy). Ultimately, the intention is for it to be part of a bigger modular system. The three-Mother rack costs almost nothing ($80), and they really seem to be encouraging multi-Mother systems.
So the single-oscillator doesn't bother me. No, the thing that gives me pause is the pared-down envelope generator. This falls short of the classic Minimoog ADS. Again, you're supposed to add stuff to it, but I'd have preferred a decent EG to start with.
The Mother-32 is tempting, but I don't see one in my own personal future. I'm more likely to get another Minitaur, which has two oscillators already and two five-stage EGs. If I ever dive into modular, it will be more likely with a Pittsburgh Modular system, and start down the road of slowly building a huge Frankenstein.
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After finally getting a chance to look at the links you guys posted here, I was excited about the Mother 32. But, like Chysn, I find the bare-bones envelope a killer. With all the time and care that goes into designing even an ostensibly simple sound, to have so little control over the shape of it is unacceptable. It seems as if this happens a lot now with synthesizers, the compromising in this department. It must be a type of electronic music using rapid sequences that cares so little for the shape of the envelope. I consider three four-stage envelopes to be required sound design resources. I suppose two could be manageable, but anything less is absurd. Then striking a note is too much like turning a light on and then turning it off, with little more happening before, during, or after the note strike.
Then again, after listening to more Mother 32 recordings, I'd say this is a module designed for live tweaking. In other words, the scarcity of refined envelope control is compensated for by hands-on turning of the filter. Which is to say that it's not ideal to play this with a keyboard, but rather, with the sequencer while turning parameters. I get it, but it isn't for me.
The Mother 32 is no substitute for the Voyager. So, I wonder what will be?
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So, I wonder what will be?
Hype compatible candy for the eurowreck crowd! ;)
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I hadn't noticed the envelope, you would have though at a minimum they would have had a release switch using the decay setting.
So one osc and a limited envelope. Still it looks appealing so I think I'm going to order one.
I will let you know how it goes...
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@BobTheDog: Do you have an eurorack system already?
If I remember correctly you have a Pro2. So there could be options for great Pro2/Mother-32 demos. Any plans to shot videos of that combo?
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Yeah, I have a small frankenstein setup consisting of:
A Doepfer P9 suitcase filled with bits and bobs, A wonderful tinysizer ( http://www.anyware-instruments.de/tinysizer/ ), voyager with VX-351, Doepfer Dark Energy, Cirklon with CV box and underneath the P9 is a motu interface with 8 CV ins and out via ES SilentWay on the computer. All can be connected in many ways I don't understand but it can be fun to mess around.
I have included a picture, nothing is patched up as we had some visitors and I had to make the music room "respectable".
Me and videos don't go together, so it would be unlikely.
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I'm with Sacred Synthesis here. I got a bit sentimental over the announcement. I mean, it was obvious that this day had to come at some point, but it's kind of weird to imagine a synth world without the Voyager as it has been such an iconic instrument. On the other hand I'm curious what Moog will come up with in terms of a new flagship product. The Mother-32 might already suggest that they might go back to their modular roots while pairing that side with a couple of features that are in high demand these days. The Mother-32 looks and sounds quite tasty and if money wouldn't be an issue, I could see myself pre-ordering at least two. From what I've heard, the oscillator sounds different from the Sub 37. That plus linear FM and the modular side in general wouldn't make this a redundant addition.
I agree with dslsynth that the Mother-32 could also serve as a powerful addition to the Pro 2. I can clearly see some nasty options for modulation routings between those two although I'm not of the opinion that the Pro 2 lacks analog oscillators.
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Sweet picture, BobTheDog! 8)
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Btw, a great selection of samples of just one Mother-32: https://soundcloud.com/moogmusicinc/sets/mother-32-sound-samples
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Wow BobTheDog, thats a cute little modular setup and quite a synth collection. Plenty of gear envy from here! ;)
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I read somewhere that the XL will still be continued and if that is the case the Voyager lives on. In any event, I would expect the next big thing to be something based on the Sub 37 whatever they decide to name it. At least that's what I'm hoping for. Something along the lines of a modernized Voyager.
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Only one oscillator :(
Not if you chain them up ;) ... I'm probably going to get one of these as my first entry into semi-modular... Price is right, and I know the sound will be too.
I was also thinking about getting a Voyager Rack, but I still find it a bit too expensive for what it does, so I'll wait until I see a used one for the right price.
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Only one oscillator :(
Not if you chain them up ;) ... I'm probably going to get one of these as my first entry into semi-modular... Price is right, and I know the sound will be too.
I was also thinking about getting a Voyager Rack, but I still find it a bit too expensive for what it does, so I'll wait until I see a used one for the right price.
You can't really poly-chain them, though. That would require a MIDI Out port. Nevertheless, the sound seems to be quite full when more than one Mother-32 is used.
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You can't really poly-chain them, though. That would require a MIDI Out port.
Or simply a question of creative computer programming! ;)
Still it would way cooler if DSI made an eurorack preset manager module with support for paraphonic and polyphonic operation together with plenty of digital modulations (lfo, envelope, sequencer, ...) in a nice module with OLED display and plenty of CV outs and of cause MIDI In/Out and USB MIDI.
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Imagine if DSI went all-out in the modular direction, with VCO, DCO, and DO modules. Finally, we could have the DSI synthesizer of our dreams. I'd build a massive mono synth.
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I think that DSI are already heading in that direction. I think they promised a new eurorack module later this year. What is missing however is a digital glue module allowing presets and providing plenty of digital modulations at the same time. Which will actually allow for the user to save a lot of support modules from their setup. Think about how a DSI synthesizer looks on the inside: Oscillator/Filter/Amp happening in analog electronics and the rest is happening inside code on PICs and/or DSPs. Eurorack world could benefit from the same tools and DSI are the perfect company to make it happen.
Regarding an successor to the Voyager I think like someone else said that it will be based on Sub37 technology and hopefully have more features. So how about a four oscillator four lfo new Moog synth? On the visual front I really hope they make a back lighted panel similar to Voyager Electric Blue version as its so cool looking. And possibly a much more compact module than the Voyager RME?
Next NAMM are going to be interesting and Modal Electronics are on their way with their next new highly priced instrument! ;D
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I think that DSI are already heading in that direction. I think they promised a new eurorack module later this year. What is missing however is a digital glue module allowing presets and providing plenty of digital modulations at the same time. Which will actually allow for the user to save a lot of support modules from their setup. Think about how a DSI synthesizer looks on the inside: Oscillator/Filter/Amp happening in analog electronics and the rest is happening inside code on PICs and/or DSPs. Eurorack world could benefit from the same tools and DSI are the perfect company to make it happen.
Regarding an successor to the Voyager I think like someone else said that it will be based on Sub37 technology and hopefully have more features. So how about a four oscillator four lfo new Moog synth? On the visual front I really hope they make a back lighted panel similar to Voyager Electric Blue version as its so cool looking. And possibly a much more compact module than the Voyager RME?
Next NAMM are going to be interesting and Modal Electronics are on their way with their next new highly priced instrument! ;D
I've been thinking about such a preset module myself... even creating one myself with electronics, but you run into too many problems with it when modules are not fully voltage controllable... if just one switch does not have a volotage control input, then that module will have "parameters" that cannot be automaticaly stored and recalled... so if this was to work, DSI would have to create every single module so that it is compatible.
But it's still a rather fun thought... I'd certainly like such a thing... you'd have a hard time sharing your presets though, unless others have the exact same setup as you do :)
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Don't overlook the obvious: The Pro 2 is already there and in itself an instrument I'd call modular. Okay, it might not have as many physical patch points as a whole modular wall, but it already combines a lot of the features that are being asked for in one package, except for VCOs. Everybody's free, however, to add as many analog oscillators to the Pro 2 as one likes.
I guess it's likely though that we're going to see more DSI modules in the future - derivatives of components you'll find in the Pro 2 and the Prophet-12, and maybe even a standalone version of the Prophet-6's oscillators, which would be quite attractive.
As for the next Moog flagship: I think the only aspect that is clear is that they're going to move entirely to surface mount devices, which will eventually help to keep the costs down a bit.
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I would be happy to see DSI produce enough different modules so that one could build an all-DSI modular instrument. That would be one way to satisfy the very specific needs and wants of fickle customers: let us assemble our own instruments. And I've always thought the Prophet '08 would make an excellent keyboard controller. I'd like to expand its monophonic capabilities, though, with modules, such as an Oberheim SEM. Building a DSI/Sequential modular cabinet would be an even better idea.
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Don't overlook the obvious: The Pro 2 is already there and in itself an instrument I'd call modular. Okay, it might not have as many physical patch points as a whole modular wall, but it already combines a lot of the features that are being asked for in one package, except for VCOs. Everybody's free, however, to add as many analog oscillators to the Pro 2 as one likes.
I guess it's likely though that we're going to see more DSI modules in the future - derivatives of components you'll find in the Pro 2 and the Prophet-12, and maybe even a standalone version of the Prophet-6's oscillators, which would be quite attractive.
As for the next Moog flagship: I think the only aspect that is clear is that they're going to move entirely to surface mount devices, which will eventually help to keep the costs down a bit.
Sure... but unfortunately, the Pro 2 does not come as a rack/module version, so it's hard to make a small compact setup for desktop use.
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Sure... but unfortunately, the Pro 2 does not come as a rack/module version, so it's hard to make a small compact setup for desktop use.
Fair enough. I assume that there are going to be more DSI modules anyway. And maybe we'll even see a new desktop synth at some point. I doesn't necessarily have to be a Pro 2 desktop version as long as it's a truly flexible unit with modular capabilities and physical connections.
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I read somewhere that the XL will still be continued and if that is the case the Voyager lives on. In any event, I would expect the next big thing to be something based on the Sub 37 whatever they decide to name it. At least that's what I'm hoping for. Something along the lines of a modernized Voyager.
Good point: the Voyager XL presumably will continue in production. But still, there's quite a gap between the Sub 37 and the XL, which the Voyager standard editions nicely filled. I hope Moog comes up with another comparably-sized multi-oscillator mono synth. In this day and age, I wouldn't be surprised if an authentic Model D appeared. After all, who would have thought even a year ago that Moog would revive the large modulars? A limited edition Model D would sell like candy, as long as it truly had "that sound".
And here's a little music to accompany that thought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9SdqIqgskI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JN2dOM47F4
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Haven't there been rumors about Moog patenting the name "Model D" a couple of months ago? - That would make sense if you consider that they went all the way back to reproduce the modular systems as a limited run. One suspicious word in the description of the Mother-32 might be another hint: They speak of "a distinctively vintage-voiced analog performance and production synthesizer."
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Haven't there been rumors about Moog patenting the name "Model D" a couple of months ago? One suspicious word in the description of the Mother-32 might be another hint: They speak of "a distinctively vintage-voiced analog performance and production synthesizer."
That's exciting. I missed those rumors. With the Odyssey, MS-20, Oberheim Two-Voice, and even the Prophet 6 back in fashion, the most obvious missing instrument is the original Minimoog.
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Here's the link: https://trademarks.justia.com/863/92/minimoog-model-86392929.html (https://trademarks.justia.com/863/92/minimoog-model-86392929.html)
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Good research, Paul. I don't know what else we could conclude. It certainly looks hopeful. This would explain why Moog has been clearing the deck of so many smaller items, and now even the Voyager.
Presumably, we wouldn't have to worry that this one would have mini-keys!
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Presumably, we wouldn't have to worry that this one would have mini-keys!
A Model D reissue with mini keys would be like the mother of all insults.
When the Moog modular reissues were announced, I wrote this on another forum:
If you want to figure out what makes something tick--for example, to learn why it sounds good--the best way is to take it apart and build another one. Moog isn't going to get by on four million dollars in sales, which is what these instruments will bring it at their retail prices. If they're smart, they have engineers who learned a lot from this crazy project, and can apply the knowledge to the smaller instruments, where the real money is.
If modular reissues were a way to prepare Moog's engineering team for a perfect re-creation of the Minimoog Model D, they'll be rolling in money indeed.
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@chysn: My thoughts. I've also heard that Moog hired a couple of new people, so that might be an indicator for some new developments as well. But that's all highly speculative at this point.
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A Model D reissue with mini keys would be like the mother of all insults.
That's right. And the Moog clientele would storm the factory: "Hey, hey! Hoe, hoe! The mini-keys have got to go! Hey, hey! Hoe, hoe!"
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I don't think you got the trick about the mini keys! You see, if the manufacturer includes mini keys in the product then all the complaints will focus on those instead of the other qualities or lack thereof in the product. So whenever you see mini keys be sure to look even more closely at the sound quality and build quality.
. o O ( monday advice )
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I don't think you got the trick about the mini keys! You see, if the manufacturer includes mini keys in the product then all the complaints will focus on those instead of the other qualities or lack thereof in the product. So whenever you see mini keys be sure to look even more closely at the sound quality and build quality.
. o O ( monday advice )
Paraphrases (with slightly hysteric voice): "They are so tiny, I couldn't believe they would sound that big!"
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I would be happy to see DSI produce enough different modules so that one could build an all-DSI modular instrument.
Honestly my old friend I would like to broaden your views a little here. The eurorack scene is so large with so many options that its not a question of one manufacturer doing one perfect set of modules but rather a question of picking the best sounding oscillators, filters and amps together with relevant support modules if one is in traditional mood. Or something entirely different if one is in that mood. Read this great Mutable Instrument owner interview by KMI for additional inspiration:
http://www.keithmcmillen.com/blog/interview-with-olivier-gillet-mutable-instruments/
What a well designed preset manager module with enough features could enable is a design-it-yourself voice architecture. Or simply be the hardware side of a setup enabling generative sound design techniques being employed without having to reach into the cable-and-knob-salad all the time. Different approaches, different dreams!
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Paraphrases (with slightly hysteric voice): "They are so tiny, I couldn't believe they would sound that big!"
Interesting approach to up the perceived sound quality of an instrument. ;D :o ;)
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Paraphrases (with slightly hysteric voice): "They are so tiny, I couldn't believe they would sound that big!"
Interesting approach to up the perceived sound quality of an instrument. ;D :o ;)
Yeah, it's called "to reface."
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if just one switch does not have a volotage control input, then that module will have "parameters" that cannot be automaticaly stored and recalled...
Sure, but it would still be a major step forward over the cable-and-knob-salad jungle that so many eurorack users seem to love. Plus it would save space and possibly money in a modular setup and it would enable better tools for some types of users.
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Yeah, it's called "to reface."
Did you mean "refarce"? ;D
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Yeah, it's called "to reface."
Did you mean "refarce"? ;D
Yes. And in case anyone is wondering: Yes, I've tried them all in a store and had a good laugh. (I guess I'm a grumpy old man now.)
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Yes. And in case anyone is wondering: Yes, I've tried them all in a store and had a good laugh. (I guess I'm a grumpy old man now.)
That comes with the age! :o :o :o
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I would be happy to see DSI produce enough different modules so that one could build an all-DSI modular instrument.
Honestly my old friend I would like to broaden your views a little here. The eurorack scene is so large with so many options that its not a question of one manufacturer doing one perfect set of modules but rather a question of picking the best sounding oscillators, filters and amps together with relevant support modules if one is in traditional mood. Or something entirely different if one is in that mood. Read this great Mutable Instrument owner interview by KMI for additional inspiration:
http://www.keithmcmillen.com/blog/interview-with-olivier-gillet-mutable-instruments/
What a well designed preset manager module with enough features could enable is a design-it-yourself voice architecture. Or simply be the hardware side of a setup enabling generative sound design techniques being employed without having to reach into the cable-and-knob-salad all the time. Different approaches, different dreams!
Oh, it's not at all that I want to limit myself only to DSI products. After all, I did start this thread about the Voyager because I'm genuinely interested in Moog synthesizers. But I would be happy to see DSI get into the module approach large-scale.
You've heard me say this before. My needs are very simple, but the thing I cannot find is the large yet relatively simple synthesizer with strong fundamentals, including multiple VCOs, multiple LFOs, complete envelopes, a full-sized keyboard, and so on. There are so many instruments nowadays that fall short of this ideal. The Sub 37 is one, for example. So close and yet so far; a fabulous sound and architecture, but just too small. The same with the Prophet 6. Honestly, I keep coming back to the old Prophet '08 as an ideal. It's very difficult to find that old school-ish synthesizer that doesn't compromise on the basics. So, the best solution seems to be to find a synthesizer that's generally satisfactory and has the right physical size, and then to supplement it with modules.
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Yes. And in case anyone is wondering: Yes, I've tried them all in a store and had a good laugh. (I guess I'm a grumpy old man now.)
I feel your pain. We can start a thread for grumpy old synthesists.
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(http://media0.giphy.com/media/8CqTBWFBFZIxa/giphy.gif)
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but the thing I cannot find is the large yet relatively simple synthesizer with strong fundamentals, including multiple VCOs, multiple LFOs, complete envelopes, a full-sized keyboard, and so on.
Do you want such a machine as a mono or would you like to have it as a poly? If so, how many voices? Could you accept to use modules and then buy full sizes keyboard controllers to connect them with?
Strong fundamentals and multiple oscillators sounds really tasty to my ears! Small voice count module, please!
Interesting that Moog now goes full vintage with a MODEL D reissue. Wonder how it would sound compared to the original version issued back in the day? I have not forgotten the comment by snowcrash about vintage instrument having dark noise on their pitch CV. Could be fun to try that concept in a modern voice architecture with audio rate CV calculations.
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A monophonic synthesizer. DSI has me happily covered in the polyphonic department. Between the three larger instruments - the Poly Evolver, Prophet '08, and perhaps one day the Prophet 12 - I'm all set.
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Yeah, it's called "to reface."
Did you mean "refarce"? ;D
Actualy some live users prefer the small keys, especialy in today's live electronic dance music scene, where they have myriads of small desktop units that they tweak away on... I can see the point of having small keyboards in that situation.
Personaly I'm not into small keys... not that I've got big fingers, but I prefer full-sized keys... but with that said, I'm very much interrested in the new Yamaha Reface DX... mainly because it's a modern FM synth without the noise and aliasing of the old ones, plus it has built in effects so that you can tailor FX to a preset... on top, it has some unique features that no other FM synth has... it has feedback on all four operators which is a great plus.
I might actualy get one, even if it has keys, simply because it is so small it will not clutter up my workspace that much... though I wish they had made tham with add-on keys like the new Roland Boutique synths.
Other than that, I'm still waiting for DSI's next module or rack synth... and also I'm waiting for a Sub37 rack... hope it'll be reality some day.
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Actualy some live users prefer the small keys, especialy in today's live electronic dance music scene, where they have myriads of small desktop units that they tweak away on... I can see the point of having small keyboards in that situation.
Personaly I'm not into small keys... not that I've got big fingers, but I prefer full-sized keys... but with that said, I'm very much interrested in the new Yamaha Reface DX... mainly because it's a modern FM synth without the noise and aliasing of the old ones, plus it has built in effects so that you can tailor FX to a preset... on top, it has some unique features that no other FM synth has... it has feedback on all four operators which is a great plus.
I might actualy get one, even if it has keys, simply because it is so small it will not clutter up my workspace that much... though I wish they had made tham with add-on keys like the new Roland Boutique synths.
Other than that, I'm still waiting for DSI's next module or rack synth... and also I'm waiting for a Sub37 rack... hope it'll be reality some day.
I think nobody's questioning the use of portable controllers - at least not me. And there are plenty of those out there that all make sense to me: be it something like the QuNexus, the Korg Nano series, the Push, or the Beat Step. That's all fine. In my view, the Reface series is just incredibly overpriced for what it is. Yes, they are well-built and sound good. But I would find them more useful as modules, esp. the CP and YC ones. But maybe it's just me not being able to imagine how it should feel any good to play organ or piano on these ones. For me, that goes hand in hand with a proper key experience.
Above that, I don't get the preset and polyphony limitation and find the iOS solution for saving presets rather ridiculous.
I'm with you in that I find the DX the most interesting synthesis-wise. But again, the expression via the keyboard is rather limited without aftertouch and those displayed sliders make the adjustment of values feel rather clumsy. Personally, I would at least wait until the next NAMM to see whether this series was just a prelude to what I would call more professional and/or exciting instruments that are preferably full-sized. Otherwise, I see no reason why I shouldn't get a FM4 for $6.99 instead that can be operated on an even more portable iPad. (Or use Dexed or FM8 on a laptop in conjunction with a portable controller that's capable of velocity and aftertouch.)
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Actualy some live users prefer the small keys, especialy in today's live electronic dance music scene, where they have myriads of small desktop units that they tweak away on... I can see the point of having small keyboards in that situation.
Personaly I'm not into small keys... not that I've got big fingers, but I prefer full-sized keys... but with that said, I'm very much interrested in the new Yamaha Reface DX... mainly because it's a modern FM synth without the noise and aliasing of the old ones, plus it has built in effects so that you can tailor FX to a preset... on top, it has some unique features that no other FM synth has... it has feedback on all four operators which is a great plus.
I might actualy get one, even if it has keys, simply because it is so small it will not clutter up my workspace that much... though I wish they had made tham with add-on keys like the new Roland Boutique synths.
Other than that, I'm still waiting for DSI's next module or rack synth... and also I'm waiting for a Sub37 rack... hope it'll be reality some day.
I think nobody's questioning the use of portable controllers - at least not me. And there are plenty of those out there that all make sense to me: be it something like the QuNexus, the Korg Nano series, the Push, or the Beat Step. That's all fine. In my view, the Reface series is just incredibly overpriced for what it is. Yes, they are well-built and sound good. But I would find them more useful as modules, esp. the CP and YC ones. But maybe it's just me not being able to imagine how it should feel any good to play organ or piano on these ones. For me, that goes hand in hand with a proper key experience.
Above that, I don't get the preset and polyphony limitation and find the iOS solution for saving presets rather ridiculous.
I'm with you in that I find the DX the most interesting synthesis-wise. But again, the expression via the keyboard is rather limited without aftertouch and those displayed sliders make the adjustment of values feel rather clumsy. Personally, I would at least wait until the next NAMM to see whether this series was just a prelude to what I would call more professional and/or exciting instruments that are preferably full-sized. Otherwise, I see no reason why I shouldn't get a FM4 for $6.99 instead that can be operated on an even more portable iPad.
I agree that the Refaces are not for everyone.... I'd have liked them in module versions too, but all the other issues you mention is not an issue for me... The editing will be done in SoundDiver, as I'll be creating an editor for it (I allready checked the specs... it's doable), so I don't need to touch the synth at all to use it... the bigger keys I have on my master controller keyboard, so the minikeys is not a problem with me either... I don't find the price too high either really... they are not more expensive than other minisynths available like Mininova, MicroKorg XL or even the new Roland Boutiques... and it's just as capable and pro sounding as those in my opinion... and the patch storage... yes it's crippled, but as I'll be using an editor with librarian funcions for it, that's not an issue either.
So I guess it all boils down to how you are to use the synth... I know my usage is probably a bit "apparte", as I'm a 100% studio-rat... and I can certainly see that as the Refaces are meant for live use, the patch storage is crap... but then again... many of these live musicians have an iPad as well...
...but as allways... you cannot please everyone... and still, I'm with you on the minikeys... I find that they have become just a tiny bit too common these days.... but who knows... maybe they were made for aliens with thin fingers ;)
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I agree that the Refaces are not for everyone.... I'd have liked them in module versions too, but all the other issues you mention is not an issue for me... The editing will be done in SoundDiver, as I'll be creating an editor for it (I allready checked the specs... it's doable), so I don't need to touch the synth at all to use it... the bigger keys I have on my master controller keyboard, so the minikeys is not a problem with me either... I don't find the price too high either really... they are not more expensive than other minisynths available like Mininova, MicroKorg XL or even the new Roland Boutiques... and it's just as capable and pro sounding as those in my opinion... and the patch storage... yes it's crippled, but as I'll be using an editor with librarian funcions for it, that's not an issue either.
So I guess it all boils down to how you are to use the synth... I know my usage is probably a bit "apparte", as I'm a 100% studio-rat... and I can certainly see that as the Refaces are meant for live use, the patch storage is crap... but then again... many of these live musicians have an iPad as well...
...but as allways... you cannot please everyone... and still, I'm with you on the minikeys... I find that they have become just a tiny bit too common these days.... but who knows... maybe they were made for aliens with thin fingers ;)
Your potential use of a DX, i.e. how you would embed it in your studio and program it via MIDI, is what I would call a rather sophisticated use - in a way even a bit alienated from the original intention if the marketing campaign is anything to go by. And yes, that way makes sense to me. But if I take a look at the Reface series as standalone instruments, I'm quite disappointed. The only thing I find more positive about the Roland Boutiques is that they leave it up to you to use them with a mini-keyboard or not. They're still ultra tiny though. So unless Yamaha and Roland don't convince health insurances to cover shrinking procedures, I will wait for a full-sized UFO to come. ;)
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A monophonic synthesizer. I do think DSI has me happily covered in the polyphonic department.
Makes sense to go for a modular setup then! However I look forward to see you use a future discrete electronics machine from DSI or another manufacturer with strong fundamentals and advanced modulations. That may very well change your look at your other instruments given their potential for more immense sound!
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I'll be very interested to see where both DSI/Sequential and Moog take us this winter NAMM. I'm hoping for some strong analog instruments. They idea of another Sequential product is tantalizing, since we just don't know in what direction this new line will go - large or small instruments, keyboards or modules?
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Not to worry! There will be more than one can afford! So lets hope that at least some of them got mini keys! :o ;D :-X
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So lets hope that at least some of them got mini keys! :o ;D :-X
What?! Why, you little....
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I am just trying to take care of your finances (and fiancés)... ;-)
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I'm hoping there will soon be something NAMM-ish to post here.
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Looks like Arturia filled that void.
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Ouch!
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Ouch!
Why?
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Arturia seems to have borrowed generously from the classic Minimoog frame, and even improved on it by extending the keyboard. Meanwhile, the Voyager is passing away. Of course, all of this could change if Moog comes out with, say, a re-issued Model D.
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Arturia seems to have borrowed generously from the classic Minimoog frame, and even improved on it by extending the keyboard. Meanwhile, the Voyager is passing away. Of course, all of this could change if Moog comes out with, say, a re-issued Model D.
Moog need to do a little more than that, especially since the Sub 37 is out. Feature-wise, the Model D isn't worth more than $500 these days.
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I'm just saying - regarding the general shape. I'm still interested to see what Moog has to offer, besides the Mother-32.
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Maybe not this NAMM. I've heard that they have a hard time keeping up with the demand for the Mother-32s. They also produced far far more Sub 37s than they planned - I think the latter is about to hit the 10,000 mark soon.
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I have a Sub 37 and absolutely love it and am looking at getting 3 Mother 32s and chaining them together for sequencing. I like recording in real time and the idea of not having to overdub different sounds is a big plus for me. Especially since I can connect a Midi Keyboard up to it and play it/create sequences easier/transpose on the fly easier.
Moog has always been hit or miss with me. The sound is incredible but I always look for the bang for the buck. I look at a lot of the Moog synths and I've tried them out and I look at the price tag and see what it actually does. Some of them are more than a Prophet 12 and their monophonic with barley any features. I went with the Sub 37 because the sound is there, it's duophonic and has a plethora of useful features. I just think it's mind boggling someone would pay $3-4k for a monophonic synth and in some cases like the Old School, have no features when there's more gear out there with more synthesis and cheaper.
If anything I think Moog should look into giving people the option in constructing their own modular. Sell individual sequencers, white noise generators etc. I've been looking into investing in a Synthesizers.com modular as the Moog modular systems are way out of most people's price range perhaps this might be a good option for Moog.
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If anything I think Moog should look into giving people the option in constructing their own modular. Sell individual sequencers, white noise generators etc. I've been looking into investing in a Synthesizers.com modular as the Moog modular systems are way out of most people's price range perhaps this might be a good option for Moog.
Moog just released a pair of eurorack cases that cost about $100 less than comparable cases by anyone else. I don't know whether this signals Moog's interest in eurorack but, damn, I hope so. The Mother-32 shows that they have engineers that are conversant in the format, and I'd love to see it explode.
I'd prefer to see more modules from DSI, as I think they can be a little more forward-thinking than Moog in a lot of ways. A simple 16-step sequencer from DSI would probably tip me onto the wild side of the eurorack fence.
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The moog racks don't seem to have a power supply that's why they are a bit cheaper, or is there something new?
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The moog racks don't seem to have a power supply that's why they are a bit cheaper, or is there something new?
That's right. Compare the Moog case to the Tip Top Happy Ending, which is a bare-bones unenclosed rack with power supply for $160; or to the Pittsburgh Modular Cell[48], which is enclosed with power supply for $250. The Moog case plus a uZeus power supply seems like a much more attractive option at about $170.
There's also the option of carpentering up your own case, and getting a cheap power distribution board, and adding your own Molex power supply. This can be built for maybe $45, assuming you've already got some wood laying around, with some wood glue, drill, etc. It might be fun to see how cheap I could build a eurorack system.
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If anything I think Moog should look into giving people the option in constructing their own modular. Sell individual sequencers, white noise generators etc. I've been looking into investing in a Synthesizers.com modular as the Moog modular systems are way out of most people's price range perhaps this might be a good option for Moog.
Moog just released a pair of eurorack cases that cost about $100 less than comparable cases by anyone else. I don't know whether this signals Moog's interest in eurorack but, damn, I hope so. The Mother-32 shows that they have engineers that are conversant in the format, and I'd love to see it explode.
I'd prefer to see more modules from DSI, as I think they can be a little more forward-thinking than Moog in a lot of ways. A simple 16-step sequencer from DSI would probably tip me onto the wild side of the eurorack fence.
I think in terms of sequencers the Mother 32 is really good as it allows users to ratchet steps without having to have an additional controller and manually do it and I believe you can save the sequence patterns themselves so it's a Tangerine Dream fan's well...dream. I think a three tier Mother 32 rack handling sequencing with a small midi keyboard controlling the transpositions and a Sub 37 beside it all handling the lead work is a much more affordable and practical option than a huge modular which, while it sounds amazing, isn't really practical if you need to recall sequences for live purposes. You'd have to save the sequence to a Midi file and then play back the sequence via Midi through the system or have to take pictures of the front panel and save them as a blueprint if you want to reconstruct it from scratch. I suppose unless you wanted to hook up a Doepfer MAQ16/3 (which is now discontinued) to it.
Speaking of sequencers any news on the SEM Mini Sequencer? Why in the world would Tom not put a Midi Clock In to such a great sequencer?
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Lights out for the XL: https://www.moogmusic.com/news/saying-goodbye-last-voyager-family-xl
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I'm amazed it lasted this long. It was the esoteric version of the Voyager, with a price that most of us would rather approach by stages. And considering that for the same price one could buy a Modal Electronics 008, it probably couldn't survive in the new analog synthesizer world.
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Financial speculators who normally focus on real estate and Bordeaux wine should have a close look at these last XLs rolling of the line at the moment. This was a special instrument.
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Beautiful instrument. Everything Voyager + CV extensions, ribbon controller, and 61 keys in one box. I was lucky enough to tinker around with one that had an armada of all Moogerfoogers installed above it when I visited the Moog factory. If I had been able to afford it, I would have ordered the black Tolex edition, which had the aesthetic vibe of the Model 15 and a Fender Rhodes piano.
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Not to worry. Behringer will soon be offering their version for $999. ::)
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This is a nice demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crq-sTW0bOc
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Not to worry. Behringer will soon be offering their version for $999. ::)
and it'll probably be retired a lot quicker too.
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Honestly, Moog should have been moving on from Monophonic instruments at this point. I'm really hoping they get a Four Voice Phatty out.