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SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet => Prophet Rev2 => Topic started by: cornguy on August 23, 2020, 08:48:59 AM

Title: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: cornguy on August 23, 2020, 08:48:59 AM

I am really new to synthesizers.  I currently have a Korg Prologue, which I do really like.  Now I am considering switching over to a Rev2.  I have been learning some about synthesizers but I am a bit of a newbie.  I enjoy analog synthesizers sound, and from what I have learned part of that may be because of the infinite nature of analog instead of using steps like digital.  I am just wanting to make sure that the DCO's still maintain that quality.  I don't know if the digital controlling aspect of things will in any way interfere with that, or how that works. I really like the possibilities of this synth I just want to make sure about this one issue.  Thanks :)





























Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on August 23, 2020, 10:15:58 AM
The DCOs on the Prophet '08 and Rev2 sound excellent.  There are countless YouTube videos that demonstrate their warmth and richness.  Yet, you may want something that sounds even better.  In that case, have you considered the bonafide VCOs of the Prophet-6?  But in the case of the P-6, you'd be sacrificing many capabilities to a sound difference that may be minimal. 

It does depend on your specific needs and the complexity of your patches.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: creativespiral on August 23, 2020, 10:17:24 AM
Hey @cornguy -

DCOs are digitally controlled, analog oscillators.   They really should be referred to as DCAOs to clear up confusion.

The waveshaping for DCO circuits is analog, so you get the character and peculiarities of analog harmonics and no aliasing.  The part of the circuit that is digital is the frequency control.   With DCOs, you can expect that every key you strike will be perfectly in tune.   With VCO synths, you will find that as you move up or down the keybed, the oscillators will not be perfectly in tune...  at upper or lower octaves, the oscillators may out of tune by 3-6 cents or more.   Some VCO synths have significant issues with tuning over large octave ranges... others not so much. 

For some sound design, it is advantageous to have perfectly tracked oscillators up and down the keybed.   For other sound design, having the "sloppiness" of VCO tuning is preferable.   I have written up a bunch of info on this topic.  (articles below) 

With the Rev2, you can get the best of both worlds, by having the natural, perfect osc tuning in its default state, and by modeling in frequency offsets (Voice Modeling) when you want tuning variance from voice to voice and oscillator to oscillator.   

I highly recommend the Rev2 to just about everyone.   It's really the most versatile flagship poly synth on the market, minus the Moog One which costs four times as much.   Compared with the Prologue, you'll find the Rev2 has way more sound design possibilities due to its large mod matrix, flexible sequencer, and more LFOs/Envelopes.

Here's some info and articles that may be of interest to you:

https://www.VoiceComponentModeling.com

https://www.presetpatch.com/articles/Demystifying-Classic-Synth-Character

https://www.presetpatch.com/articles/VCO-vs-DCO-Oscillators-Objective-Differences

https://www.presetpatch.com/articles/Prophet-Rev-2-vs-Behringer-Deepmind-vs-Korg-Prologue

Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: LPF83 on August 23, 2020, 11:39:13 AM

I am really new to synthesizers.  I currently have a Korg Prologue, which I do really like.  Now I am considering switching over to a Rev2.  I have been learning some about synthesizers but I am a bit of a newbie.  I enjoy analog synthesizers sound, and from what I have learned part of that may be because of the infinite nature of analog instead of using steps like digital.  I am just wanting to make sure that the DCO's still maintain that quality.  I don't know if the digital controlling aspect of things will in any way interfere with that, or how that works. I really like the possibilities of this synth I just want to make sure about this one issue.  Thanks :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Prologue has multi-engine, is that correct?  Assuming it's similar to my Minilogue XD module in that regard, then in many patches you're hearing the VCOs plus a purely digital oscillator.

Overall I much prefer the Rev2 DCO sound to Korg VCOs, but assuming the Prologue has 3 simultaneous effects like the Minilogue XD, you might miss that feature on the Rev2 because you only get a single FX choice per layer.

I guess my overall advice would be to get the Rev2 and hold onto the Prologue long enough to determine if you really want to let it go.  If you do decide the get rid of the Prologue, but later decide you miss that Korg sound, the custom oscillators and killer FX you could always add a Minilogue XD module for under $600!  And it has a game changing sequencer that the Prologue doesn't have.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: LPF83 on August 23, 2020, 11:41:19 AM

I am really new to synthesizers.  I currently have a Korg Prologue, which I do really like.  Now I am considering switching over to a Rev2.  I have been learning some about synthesizers but I am a bit of a newbie.  I enjoy analog synthesizers sound, and from what I have learned part of that may be because of the infinite nature of analog instead of using steps like digital.  I am just wanting to make sure that the DCO's still maintain that quality.  I don't know if the digital controlling aspect of things will in any way interfere with that, or how that works. I really like the possibilities of this synth I just want to make sure about this one issue.  Thanks :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Prologue has multi-engine, is that correct?  Assuming it's similar to my Minilogue XD module in that regard, then in many patches you're hearing the VCOs plus a purely digital oscillator.

Overall I much prefer the Rev2 DCO sound to Korg VCOs, but assuming the Prologue has 3 simultaneous effects like the Minilogue XD, you might miss that feature on the Rev2 because you only get a single FX choice per layer.

I guess my overall advice would be to get the Rev2 and hold onto the Prologue long enough to determine if you really want to let it go.  If you do decide the get rid of the Prologue, but later decide you miss that Korg sound, the custom oscillators and killer FX you could always add a Minilogue XD module for under $600!  And it has a game changing sequencer that the Prologue doesn't have. 
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: Tugdual on August 23, 2020, 12:53:41 PM
While I donít think DCOs will ruin the analog nature of the sound, there is another aspect to consider.
All programs being stored, buttons are somehow discretized into digital values and these values being conform with MIDI standards you have 7bits only. With NRPN you will often have MSB and LSB making 14 bits figures. I always wondered how this limit could possibly affect the analog nature of the machine. For example do we actually have a continuous filter button or is it discretized on 14bits?
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: maxter on August 23, 2020, 03:58:26 PM
While I donít think DCOs will ruin the analog nature of the sound, there is another aspect to consider.
All programs being stored, buttons are somehow discretized into digital values and these values being conform with MIDI standards you have 7bits only. With NRPN you will often have MSB and LSB making 14 bits figures. I always wondered how this limit could possibly affect the analog nature of the machine. For example do we actually have a continuous filter button or is it discretized on 14bits?

I don't know the answer, but I have a vague memory of a mention of the Rev2 using it's own internal resolution by Razmo, I can't recall exactly what it was, 11 bits or something? This was in a discussion about the quantizing to a number of steps when storing patches... If so, then that's good enough to not audibly hear a difference between the steps, but there may be a slight difference in sound after just having programmed a patch - compared to saving it and then recalling it, as it gets quantized then. Probably small enough that not many would notice a difference though.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: cornguy on August 23, 2020, 09:22:13 PM
Thanks for the advice everyone.  I have read some of the resources posted and learned a bit.  I think I am going to get a Rev2 regardless but still curious.  If the dco controls the pitch, would that mean if I have an lfo moving the pitch of a dco, would the dco's changing pitch be moving differently that a vco would? So would it be moving fully seamlessly or would it have digity step type things in there.  Again I'm still pretty simple with all of this but I think hopefully you get what I'm wondering about :) thanks
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: creativespiral on August 23, 2020, 10:20:31 PM
The LFO -> Osc Frequency routing works great for achieving tremolo, pitch warble like Numan's Cars / Vox Humana, square pitch intervals, or other effects in the LFO frequency range.   The LFO can go into the low audio rate range... I forget what the maximum rate on the LFO is... maybe somewhere around 150hz?... its pretty high.   I basically never use LFOs at full rate.   

The Rev2 doesn't have direct osc to osc cross-modulation (x-mod / polymod), for more extreme FM effects and interval locked FM at high frequencies -- but as mentioned, the LFO does work well for most frequency modulation needs, and you've got four polyphonic LFOs to use for that.   

The Rev2 does have Filter Audio Mod, which is interesting and unique... it routes osc frequency to the filter cutoff point, which, when used with higher resonance, can create some really interesting tones.   I have found it works really good for modeling transient sounds of wind/brass tones... if you use an envelope to shape the transient.   

Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: cornguy on August 24, 2020, 05:41:34 AM
Thanks for the help spiral :).  I am still on the fence after being up all night watching videos lol.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: MPM on August 24, 2020, 07:15:29 AM
Thanks for the help spiral :).  I am still on the fence after being up all night watching videos lol.

It's good to experience a few synths if you're starting out, and your Korg is a great place to start. Honestly, the Rev2 will mostly give you an experience of the difference in filter character. They both have a good presence, and definitely sound noticeably deeper than the analog modelling synths like the Nords and Rolands. Just don't get overly impressed by the YouTube heroes preaching about VCO voltage supremacy. It's all BS. Yeh, my Prophet~6 and OB-6 growl and purr in ways my Rev2 can't, but they can't do a lot of the more modern sounds or strings that the Rev2 can. Neither sounds better. Neither sound more analog or whatever. And remember that those YouTube vids are not all recorded the same way. Some are EQ'd and or driven thru character amps, before being squashed by YouTube algorithms. If you want to hang onto your Korg you should grab a DSI/Pioneer Toraiz AS-1 and experience what a mono Prophet~6 sounds like for a few$100, and you'll be in a better position to decide if the full voltage voodoo path is any better (for you) than the DCO synths. In fact, check out a comparison of the AS-1 and the ancient Pro-One on your YouTube binge. I wouldn't mind the Prologue myself, it's a deep and characterful synth, but in the end as a tool it's very much like my Rev2.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: Jason on August 24, 2020, 10:37:32 AM
Thanks for the help spiral :).  I am still on the fence after being up all night watching videos lol.

You've probably already seen this series. It's the best I've seen on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP0Z_YWvU7E
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: cornguy on August 24, 2020, 11:45:39 AM
Thanks for the help everyone :)  After a lot of reading and videos today I ordered the Rev 2.  Now I just have to wait for it to get here!

And yes I saw at least 1 of those videos but I"ll check out the rest :)
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: creativespiral on August 24, 2020, 02:14:01 PM
Thanks for the help everyone :)  After a lot of reading and videos today I ordered the Rev 2.  Now I just have to wait for it to get here!

Congrats!   It's an amazing synth!  Super versatile and very deep if you dig in...  plus it's been out for a few years, so there's a lot of resources out there... patch design tutorials, 3rd party soundsets, free patches, etc.

I uploaded some Rev2 patches here:   
(Including some Voice Modeling VCM patches and templates, if you wanna give them a whirl once you get it)

https://www.PresetPatch.com/user/CreativeSpiral   



Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: LPF83 on August 24, 2020, 02:38:34 PM
You've probably already seen this series. It's the best I've seen on the subject:

I hadn't watched this one before (although I had seen many of Starsky's other vids including the Rev2/Prophet 6 comparison).

What struck me right away was how different the init patch oscillators sound on the Prophet '08 versus the Prophet 6 right out of the gate.  Rev2 and P6 oscillators sound pretty much the same on init patch, even when playing a fifth for example.  I would have expected Prophet '08 default osc sound to be identical to Rev2.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on August 24, 2020, 09:04:50 PM
Some of the simple folk do still claim to be able to tell the sonic difference between a DCO and a VCO.

https://youtu.be/b9UxnbGszaY?t=56
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: LPF83 on August 25, 2020, 04:09:29 AM
Some of the simple folk do still claim to be able to tell the sonic difference between a DCO and a VCO.

https://youtu.be/b9UxnbGszaY?t=56

I feel that I can tell the difference between a DCO and a VCO at a certain early stage during sound sculpting, but not so much from the pure output produced by the oscillator waveform.  Just listening to a raw saw tooth for example from the OB6, P6, or Rev2, if I asked 1000 participants in an Internet survey to pick out which one was a DCO, I bet the random guesses would be evenly distributed.

However, take those OSCs and do something with them... like set them all to square and modulate the shape slightly for a little PWM, and very quickly you can start picking up the sound profile of each synth, and start identifying which is the Prophet 6 vs the OB-6 vs the Rev2.  I'm still not sure that would indicate which is VCO or DCO if one was not familiar with subtle characteristics of how each synth sounds. 

Vintage Roland Junos were DCO based synths, yet still considered some of the warmest sounding analogs of their time.  Yet, this is not to say all VCOs or DCOs are created equal, or that DCOs and a purely digital oscillator necessarily have the same characteristics. 
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: cornguy on August 25, 2020, 05:15:36 AM
Thanks for the help everyone :)  After a lot of reading and videos today I ordered the Rev 2.  Now I just have to wait for it to get here!

Congrats!   It's an amazing synth!  Super versatile and very deep if you dig in...  plus it's been out for a few years, so there's a lot of resources out there... patch design tutorials, 3rd party soundsets, free patches, etc.

I uploaded some Rev2 patches here:   
(Including some Voice Modeling VCM patches and templates, if you wanna give them a whirl once you get it)

https://www.PresetPatch.com/user/CreativeSpiral

Nice thank you :) I'll check it out once I get going!
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: creativespiral on August 25, 2020, 10:35:02 AM
Some of the simple folk do still claim to be able to tell the sonic difference between a DCO and a VCO.
https://youtu.be/b9UxnbGszaY?t=56

I feel that I can tell the difference between a DCO and a VCO at a certain early stage during sound sculpting, but not so much from the pure output produced by the oscillator waveform.  Just listening to a raw saw tooth for example from the OB6, P6, or Rev2, if I asked 1000 participants in an Internet survey to pick out which one was a DCO, I bet the random guesses would be evenly distributed.

However, take those OSCs and do something with them... like set them all to square and modulate the shape slightly for a little PWM, and very quickly you can start picking up the sound profile of each synth, and start identifying which is the Prophet 6 vs the OB-6 vs the Rev2.  I'm still not sure that would indicate which is VCO or DCO if one was not familiar with subtle characteristics of how each synth sounds. 

Vintage Roland Junos were DCO based synths, yet still considered some of the warmest sounding analogs of their time.  Yet, this is not to say all VCOs or DCOs are created equal, or that DCOs and a purely digital oscillator necessarily have the same characteristics.

Yeah, in an A/B test of a raw DCO vs VCO, you can't tell the difference.   There is a very minor effect of harmonic jitter that all VCOs exhibit, but it's extremely subtle.   I made a video about it a while back:

https://www.presetpatch.com/articles/VCO-Harmonic-Jitter

As I've mentioned, the big difference with DCOs vs VCOs is not the raw analog character of them, but the juxtaposed combination of multiple VCOs that are not tuned to their nominal target.   VCO synth oscillators are in tune in a "sweet spot" on the keybed, but progressively get sharper or flatter as you go up and down the keybed.   Some modern VCO synths are very well tamed, and this difference in tuning may just be a couple cents over five octaves or so, but classic VCO synths will often have 5-10 cents difference in tuning over that octave range... and some (looking at you MemoryMoog), may exhibit upward of 20+ cents variance over a five octave range. 

When you play two or three oscillators per voice, and play multiple voices at one, you're combining potentially dozens of oscillators, each playing slightly out of tune.   This juxtaposition of non-nominal tuning results in natural phasing / detuning motion - that is what people think of when they refer to "the VCO character".   

So, yeah, that's the objective/scientific difference between DCOs and VCOs that I studied.   I wrote up my findings in the Voice Component Modeling (VCM) website: 

http://www.voicecomponentmodeling.com/

Some key points that should be re-emphasised:

1. From a raw oscillator standpoint, there is virtually no difference in sonic character between a single DCO and VCO oscillator.   There is a little bit of harmonic jitter as mentioned above, but its extremely subtle.   You can actually model this harmonic jitter in the Rev2 if you really want, and I will occasionally do this on Mono Lead and Bass patches, but it has diminishing returns, and in comparison with the large effect of Voice Modeling, its pretty much not needed.

2. The big difference is the juxtaposition of detuned oscillators, per voice.   This detuning of each oscillator is RELATIVELY STABLE... ie:  It doesn't wildly swing back and forth over time.   Once the synth has warmed up, and you hit a certain voice/oscillator, if you hold it, it will have a tuning offset, but that offset will be stable (minus the harmonic jitter described above)   This is the reason why Osc Slop / Osc Drift circuitry delivers a somewhat unrealistic / unnatural sound.   These Slop circuits use the motion of multiple LFOs to swing the frequency back and forth of oscillators.   For quick stab sounds this works okay, as you don't notice the artificial motion.   But for strings, pads, brass and other acoustic ensembles with longer decay/release times, its much better to model the offsets per voice (Individual Voice Modeling / VCM).   The analogy I make is that if you have a section of string players in an orchestra, you wouldn't want each player in the orchestra to have another person next to them who is constantly turning the tuning pegs on each players instrument as they play.   That would produce an unnatural sound.   But having each players instrument and the strings on each instrument have small tuning offsets (a couple cents) adds this natural phasing motion of sound when combined with many others.   

With the Rev2, you get the best of both worlds in my opinion...  In its natural state, you have accurate tuning per osc / per voice up and down the keybed, and you can pull off more technical precise sound design.    But then with a couple minutes of alterations to the gated sequencer and mod matrix, you can model in per voice / per oscillator character , and even get specific voice counts modeled (ie: 6 voice OBX, 8 voice CS80).   And not only can you model in voice modeling, but you have surgical control over how loose each oscillator and each voice is.   You can model a MemoryMoog on a good day with beautiful phasing/detuning, or you can model a MemoryMoog at a hot summer festival where a voice or two are significantly out of tune, creating weird semi dissonant phasing in certain patterns.    (Note: usually you won't want to model the hot summer festival behavior of classic VCOs, but you can if you want) 

https://youtu.be/jB9HG3k3vvQ?t=349
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: LPF83 on August 25, 2020, 01:59:51 PM
Some of the simple folk do still claim to be able to tell the sonic difference between a DCO and a VCO.
https://youtu.be/b9UxnbGszaY?t=56

I feel that I can tell the difference between a DCO and a VCO at a certain early stage during sound sculpting, but not so much from the pure output produced by the oscillator waveform.  Just listening to a raw saw tooth for example from the OB6, P6, or Rev2, if I asked 1000 participants in an Internet survey to pick out which one was a DCO, I bet the random guesses would be evenly distributed.

However, take those OSCs and do something with them... like set them all to square and modulate the shape slightly for a little PWM, and very quickly you can start picking up the sound profile of each synth, and start identifying which is the Prophet 6 vs the OB-6 vs the Rev2.  I'm still not sure that would indicate which is VCO or DCO if one was not familiar with subtle characteristics of how each synth sounds. 

Vintage Roland Junos were DCO based synths, yet still considered some of the warmest sounding analogs of their time.  Yet, this is not to say all VCOs or DCOs are created equal, or that DCOs and a purely digital oscillator necessarily have the same characteristics.

Yeah, in an A/B test of a raw DCO vs VCO, you can't tell the difference.   There is a very minor effect of harmonic jitter that all VCOs exhibit, but it's extremely subtle.   I made a video about it a while back:

https://www.presetpatch.com/articles/VCO-Harmonic-Jitter

As I've mentioned, the big difference with DCOs vs VCOs is not the raw analog character of them, but the juxtaposed combination of multiple VCOs that are not tuned to their nominal target.   VCO synth oscillators are in tune in a "sweet spot" on the keybed, but progressively get sharper or flatter as you go up and down the keybed.   Some modern VCO synths are very well tamed, and this difference in tuning may just be a couple cents over five octaves or so, but classic VCO synths will often have 5-10 cents difference in tuning over that octave range... and some (looking at you MemoryMoog), may exhibit upward of 20+ cents variance over a five octave range. 

When you play two or three oscillators per voice, and play multiple voices at one, you're combining potentially dozens of oscillators, each playing slightly out of tune.   This juxtaposition of non-nominal tuning results in natural phasing / detuning motion - that is what people think of when they refer to "the VCO character".   

So, yeah, that's the objective/scientific difference between DCOs and VCOs that I studied.   I wrote up my findings in the Voice Component Modeling (VCM) website: 

http://www.voicecomponentmodeling.com/

Some key points that should be re-emphasised:

1. From a raw oscillator standpoint, there is virtually no difference in sonic character between a single DCO and VCO oscillator.   There is a little bit of harmonic jitter as mentioned above, but its extremely subtle.   You can actually model this harmonic jitter in the Rev2 if you really want, and I will occasionally do this on Mono Lead and Bass patches, but it has diminishing returns, and in comparison with the large effect of Voice Modeling, its pretty much not needed.

2. The big difference is the juxtaposition of detuned oscillators, per voice.   This detuning of each oscillator is RELATIVELY STABLE... ie:  It doesn't wildly swing back and forth over time.   Once the synth has warmed up, and you hit a certain voice/oscillator, if you hold it, it will have a tuning offset, but that offset will be stable (minus the harmonic jitter described above)   This is the reason why Osc Slop / Osc Drift circuitry delivers a somewhat unrealistic / unnatural sound.   These Slop circuits use the motion of multiple LFOs to swing the frequency back and forth of oscillators.   For quick stab sounds this works okay, as you don't notice the artificial motion.   But for strings, pads, brass and other acoustic ensembles with longer decay/release times, its much better to model the offsets per voice (Individual Voice Modeling / VCM).   The analogy I make is that if you have a section of string players in an orchestra, you wouldn't want each player in the orchestra to have another person next to them who is constantly turning the tuning pegs on each players instrument as they play.   That would produce an unnatural sound.   But having each players instrument and the strings on each instrument have small tuning offsets (a couple cents) adds this natural phasing motion of sound when combined with many others.   

With the Rev2, you get the best of both worlds in my opinion...  In its natural state, you have accurate tuning per osc / per voice up and down the keybed, and you can pull off more technical precise sound design.    But then with a couple minutes of alterations to the gated sequencer and mod matrix, you can model in per voice / per oscillator character , and even get specific voice counts modeled (ie: 6 voice OBX, 8 voice CS80).   And not only can you model in voice modeling, but you have surgical control over how loose each oscillator and each voice is.   You can model a MemoryMoog on a good day with beautiful phasing/detuning, or you can model a MemoryMoog at a hot summer festival where a voice or two are significantly out of tune, creating weird semi dissonant phasing in certain patterns.    (Note: usually you won't want to model the hot summer festival behavior of classic VCOs, but you can if you want) 

https://youtu.be/jB9HG3k3vvQ?t=349

Thank you for the post, I checked out your work on VCM some time back and was impressed, also felt I learned many things from it and did a bit of experimenting with the technique on the Rev2.  I haven't made the technique it a staple "yet" only because my other VCO synths sort of cover that base, and I like the "well-behaved" tuning I get from the Rev2, it complements the other synths nicely.  But that's not to say I won't revisit it... Rev2 is a tweaker's heaven and I've only begun to explore it.

Believe it or not, it doesn't take a hot festival to introduce noticeable drift!  My studio is a small spare bedroom that can get hot in the summer, and both the OB-6 and P6 cases can get pretty warm to the touch.  Sometimes on a hot day the OB-6 wants to wanter a little bit and I have to give it a subtle correction or calibration.  All part of its character :)   Its Prophet siblings don't seem to do that.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on August 25, 2020, 03:08:23 PM
Some of the simple folk do still claim to be able to tell the sonic difference between a DCO and a VCO.

https://youtu.be/b9UxnbGszaY?t=56

I feel that I can tell the difference between a DCO and a VCO at a certain early stage during sound sculpting, but not so much from the pure output produced by the oscillator waveform.  Just listening to a raw saw tooth for example from the OB6, P6, or Rev2, if I asked 1000 participants in an Internet survey to pick out which one was a DCO, I bet the random guesses would be evenly distributed.

However, take those OSCs and do something with them... like set them all to square and modulate the shape slightly for a little PWM, and very quickly you can start picking up the sound profile of each synth, and start identifying which is the Prophet 6 vs the OB-6 vs the Rev2.  I'm still not sure that would indicate which is VCO or DCO if one was not familiar with subtle characteristics of how each synth sounds. 

Vintage Roland Junos were DCO based synths, yet still considered some of the warmest sounding analogs of their time.  Yet, this is not to say all VCOs or DCOs are created equal, or that DCOs and a purely digital oscillator necessarily have the same characteristics.

In referring to "simple folk," I was being sarcastic.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: LPF83 on August 25, 2020, 03:18:39 PM
In referring to "simple folk," I was being sarcastic.

.. I realized that when I saw Nick Batts was hiding behind that URL :)
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: cornguy on August 26, 2020, 06:24:35 AM
Ok it should arrive today and I'm currently watching your video about using the gated sequencer to make it sound a bit more not perfectly in tuned between voices.  Didn't realize how much you could do with that, very excited!
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: maxter on August 26, 2020, 12:17:05 PM
Ok it should arrive today and I'm currently watching your video about using the gated sequencer to make it sound a bit more not perfectly in tuned between voices.  Didn't realize how much you could do with that, very excited!

Yep, this actually may beat having just ONE vco-polysynth... because you can mimic different behaviours of various vco-synths, and you're not stuck with one characteristic. You're not bound to a particular one all the time, and if you need perfectly tuned oscillators, you've got that too. Let's just hope that Sequential implement osc finetune as a mod destination, so we don't have to sacrifice unnecessarily many mod slots in the mod matrix to achieve this, if so we can have some more slots left to do more complex sound design at the same time... It would probably beat the crap out of those vco purists  ;D
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: creativespiral on August 26, 2020, 10:31:45 PM
Ok it should arrive today and I'm currently watching your video about using the gated sequencer to make it sound a bit more not perfectly in tuned between voices.  Didn't realize how much you could do with that, very excited!

Cool - Happy New Synth Day to you!   Lemme know if you have any questions when experimenting with voice modeling.  Also, make sure to check out these free presets I uploaded here:

https://www.presetpatch.com/user/CreativeSpiral

Two template patches:
These are basically just Init patches, but with all the voice modeling wired up... you can use them to build your own sounds, or study to see how they're hooked up:
VCM_6V2O_MMChr_FFJG.syx  (6 voice emulation)
VCM_8V2O_(IIJG)_INIT_Template.syx  (8 voice emulation, intonation based tuning offsets)


And a bunch of more polished VCM patch examples:
STR_Subdiv_OBX_VCM.syx  - Rush Subdivisions
STR_DynStrings_VCM.syx - Dynamic String Ensemble
BRS_Vangel_VCM.syx - Vangelis Blade Runner
KEY_Everything2_VCM.syx - Radiohead Everything in its Right Place
STR_MegaPWM_2_VCM.syx - Big PWM String Patch
BRS_Ceremony_VCM.syx - Big Brass Patch
STR_Live_Orchestra_VCM.syx - Acoustic Ensemble String Section
KEY_ResoPluck_VCM.syx - Polyphonic Resonant Analog Pluck

Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: cornguy on August 27, 2020, 10:45:12 AM
Ok, one of the first things I did was use your method with the gated sequencer to make it like a synth with some voice differences.  It sounds way better and organic.  I then made a bunch of copies of it so now most of my stuff will be based around that foundaition.  With most of my virtual voices I made, they just vary a bit randomly near 62, I didnt really to match each one up.  IE I didnt try to make osc 1 and 2 both vary in sort of the same way for each voice, I just did them all randomly in that area.  Also I used all 16 steps but on the 16th step of one I added a reset, that way the voices keep getting paired up differently for more variety(I think it works like that?).  Really awesome synth :).  I had more trouble noticing a difference in the added attack and decay in the mod matrix, but I'm sure its part of the subtle difference.  Thanks for the resources and help everyone :)
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: maxter on August 27, 2020, 02:07:43 PM
Good creative thinking there, with a reset on 16, making for one line of 15 and the other 16, for a pseudo-random effect. It will take 240 consecutive notes until a repetition that way. That kind of thinking really suits the Rev2, imo, and I'm sure you'll come up with ways to cross-modulate the modulation sources with eachother for some interresting results. The mod matrix has lots of potential for this. And the LFOs and Env3 each have an extra mod destination each... Your imagination is the limit (and the few bugs still present of course, which hopefully get sorted with a new OS).
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: creativespiral on August 27, 2020, 02:24:06 PM
Ok, one of the first things I did was use your method with the gated sequencer to make it like a synth with some voice differences.  It sounds way better and organic.  I then made a bunch of copies of it so now most of my stuff will be based around that foundaition.  With most of my virtual voices I made, they just vary a bit randomly near 62, I didnt really to match each one up.  IE I didnt try to make osc 1 and 2 both vary in sort of the same way for each voice, I just did them all randomly in that area.  Also I used all 16 steps but on the 16th step of one I added a reset, that way the voices keep getting paired up differently for more variety(I think it works like that?).  Really awesome synth :).  I had more trouble noticing a difference in the added attack and decay in the mod matrix, but I'm sure its part of the subtle difference.  Thanks for the resources and help everyone :)

Yup, definitely works well with using all sixteen "virtual voices", or a mix of 15/16 if you want a different (but stable phasing) VCO character on every key strike.   

The whole virtual voice count setup with specific amounts (4v,5v,6v,8v) is meant to replicate the patterns that occur in classic synths with round-robin voice allocation.   So, if you're modeling an OBX or MemoryMoog, every 8 voices, or every 6 voices, you get returned back to that specific tuning offset for a specific voice.    It's another subtle thing, but when you play a sequence of chords, there are these minor patterns of detuning/phasing that repeat depending on how many notes are held for the chords, and what the total voice count of the synth is.  Its most noticeable if modeling a synth with one bad voice / one voice further out of tune than the others.   

In the big picture, just getting the stable tuning offsets per voice/osc will be good enough for most to capture that VCO character, but if you really want an extra level of modeling for specific classic synths, that's why I uploaded specific voice count models.... since everyone seems to want their Rev2 to sound like specific classics. 

I'm all for moving forward though, and I do use all sixteen virtual VCM voices often for my new sound designs.   It's one of the INIT templates I've got ready to go at all times.  :)

Glad you're enjoying it!  Look forward to hearing what you come up with.

Cheers, Jason
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: cornguy on August 28, 2020, 06:35:14 AM
Thanks Maxter, Spiral, and everyone else for the help.  This seems to be a very nice community.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: Jason on August 28, 2020, 01:14:52 PM
What struck me right away was how different the init patch oscillators sound on the Prophet '08 versus the Prophet 6 right out of the gate.  Rev2 and P6 oscillators sound pretty much the same on init patch, even when playing a fifth for example.  I would have expected Prophet '08 default osc sound to be identical to Rev2.

Yes, the settings of the initial basic patch of the Rev2 and '08 are different... as is the basic patch on a Tetra (which includes some panning). But they all sound the same if you get all the settings the matched up.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: ryankm on September 15, 2020, 04:47:34 PM
IDK what y'all are galking about, but VCO's and DCO's have huge differences.  I have been doing Analog synths for only about 7 years now, but they are easy to tell apart.  Now I did just get a Prophet rev2 and I will say as far as DCO's go theybare the best sounding DCO's I have ever heard, but Ill probably get the Prolouge also for it's 16 voice dual VCO synth nature to play uinison.  To me they are made for each other.   The rev2 has a deeper synth engine, but the prolouge will back it up and make the soind fuller and richer with it's VCO's.  VCO's are thicker than DCO's and put out more sound of pure electricity is the only way I can thinknto explain.
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: creativespiral on September 15, 2020, 09:18:22 PM
IDK what y'all are galking about, but VCO's and DCO's have huge differences.  I have been doing Analog synths for only about 7 years now, but they are easy to tell apart.  Now I did just get a Prophet rev2 and I will say as far as DCO's go theybare the best sounding DCO's I have ever heard, but Ill probably get the Prolouge also for it's 16 voice dual VCO synth nature to play uinison.  To me they are made for each other.   The rev2 has a deeper synth engine, but the prolouge will back it up and make the soind fuller and richer with it's VCO's.  VCO's are thicker than DCO's and put out more sound of pure electricity is the only way I can thinknto explain.

This is the dogma... you will notice that people tend to use only subjective terms when describing differences between VCOs and DCOs... it's widespread across the synth community, and has been for many years.  That's what actually led me on my journey to try and document the differences - I wanted to understand objectively / scientifically what the differences between DCOs and VCOs were.   I recorded hundreds of samples from dozens of synths - many classics like Yamaha CS-80, Roland Jupiter 4, Jupiter 8, Oberheim OBX, OBXa, Prophet 5, Prophet 10, Korg Polysix, Memory Moog and several other classics, as well as a variety of modern VCO and DCO synths.   There are two objective differences that can be measured: 

First, all VCOs do exhibit a small amount of frequency jitter / harmonic jitter... In a practical setting with multiple voices/oscillators playing together, it's almost impossible to distinguish between DCO and VCO.   In a situation with isolated, single, stable oscillators playing, there is a small difference though.   More info on Harmonic Freq Jitter here:  https://www.presetpatch.com/articles/VCO-Harmonic-Jitter

Second - the big difference - VCOs have inherently "bad tuning performance" over large octave ranges  (aka: Lots of Character).   If you measure even the most modern VCO implementations across a five octave range, you are almost certain to have at least 5-6 cents variance from nominal, up and down the keybed, and per oscillator, per voice.  This tuning performance is usually "intonation based".   Classic VCO synths often have 10-20 cents variance over a five octave range, sometimes even more.   They also are prone to variance with heat and humidity.   
https://www.presetpatch.com/articles/VCO-vs-DCO-Oscillators-Objective-Differences

On the other hand, DCOs are perfectly accurate up and down the keybed when it comes to nominal tuning frequency, for all voices and all oscillators.    This was what I found in my measurements that led to the Voice Component Modeling paper/article.   The "sound of VCOs" is really the sound of natural phasing of slightly detuned (but relatively stable) oscillators per voice.   On a poly synth with six voices and three oscillators, that's a total of 18 oscillators that each will have their own tuning profile across multiple octaves.   The differences between nominal target frequency and actual frequency may be small (ie: <5 cents), but when you add that up across multiple voices being played and multiple oscillators per voice, it creates this "beautiful/warm/organic/thicker *insert_your_subjective_term* "  sound.   

More info on all this here: http://www.VoiceComponentModeling.com
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: maxter on September 16, 2020, 05:40:19 AM
IDK what y'all are galking about, but VCO's and DCO's have huge differences.  I have been doing Analog synths for only about 7 years now, but they are easy to tell apart.  Now I did just get a Prophet rev2 and I will say as far as DCO's go theybare the best sounding DCO's I have ever heard, but Ill probably get the Prolouge also for it's 16 voice dual VCO synth nature to play uinison.  To me they are made for each other.   The rev2 has a deeper synth engine, but the prolouge will back it up and make the soind fuller and richer with it's VCO's.  VCO's are thicker than DCO's and put out more sound of pure electricity is the only way I can thinknto explain.

Please see creativespirals articles on this. The short summary and conclusion is that the Rev2 can faithfully emulate the different characteristics of VCOs by using LFOs and Gated Sequencers in Key Step mode. The cost is a couple of Mod slots, and then the Rev2 can actually act as different VCO synths (different filters aside, of course)
Title: Re: Might buy a Rev2, have one question first
Post by: ryankm on September 16, 2020, 06:15:31 AM
https://youtu.be/uIyK0CwmV8c (https://youtu.be/uIyK0CwmV8c)

Here is a Chroma Polaris behind a Prophet Rev2. The Polaris went noticable out of tune once and I was able to get it back in tune by playing it out near the end.  There is also a tuning slider right on the front panel.  Half way through the rev2 volume cuts out and I was able to play it back in w/o to many issues.

  I almost didn't get this one bevause the youtube videos made it sound weak, but was pleasently surprised at how thick it was. 

But in essence what the above poster posted above about VCO's and DCO's are true and that is why VCO's sound so good because they will fill up a filter and resonate; make it sing! 

The VCO's from the 36 year old synth tune up fine and add a lot of sonic character and bottom end meatiness to the Prohet rev2.