The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Pro 2 => Topic started by: binman_uk on April 08, 2016, 08:01:18 AM
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All,
I've just raised a support call with DSI because the jumpy encoders on the synth are driving me mental at times (and a couple of others I've spoken to in the DSI Pro-2 group on Facebook). I sent the following:
I can move the knobs quite a bit without the sound being affected in any way whatsoever - they're just not as responsive as I would expect.
As an example, let's say I start with an init patch and create a new sound.
Knobs are set to Absolute in the globals but the other options don't affect the issue in any way.
I'm sequencing the synth via external midi on a loop.
Cutoff is 26.
I can move the cutoff knob a mm or two before it actually affects the sound.
As soon as I move it more than that, it does affect the sound but the cutoff value has jumped to 32 by that point.
This make delicate tweaking of sounds whilst recording quite difficult.
Was just curious if anyone else experiences the same issue?
Cheers
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The only time my knobs jump is if I have a midi loop going on, can you check that?
Also if you use the stepped encoders above the screen does it do it?
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The only time my knobs jump is if I have a midi loop going on, can you check that?
Also if you use the stepped encoders above the screen does it do it?
No there's definitely no midi loop. I tested and it does the same with the internal sequencer and even when I play the keyboard with no incoming midi.
The stepped encoders work fine, which would be fine as a workaround for me but it's impossible to change both the filter cutoff and decay at the same time if I use those (for example).
Was making a track before and the cutoff and env knobs were jumping by up to 6 increments. There's a mm or so of wiggle room before the synth actually realises that I'm turning one of the knobs.
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I would get in contact with DSI support to ask them, I can adjust the knobs on mine with increments of 1.
Is it all your knobs or just a few?
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I would get in contact with DSI support to ask them, I can adjust the knobs on mine with increments of 1.
Is it all your knobs or just a few?just
I haven't gone round testing all of them but it's a fair few of them to be honest. This is why I was thinking it's a software issue. Turning them should just scroll smoothly through the values but they just don't do that. Recorded a video:
https://youtu.be/-4WAZO7R_aE
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I watched the video.
I just tested mine and there is a initial jump when you start moving the knob, on mine this is usually 2, sometimes 3. Once the knob is moving then it increments by 1. If I then wait and use the same knob again it increments by 1. If I use another knob and then return to the original knob I get the jump of 2 again.
I never noticed this before. It looks like there is some code there that is damping the knobs to stop jitter when the P2 thinks that a human might not be turning it, I guess to stop values oscillating between two adjacent values when the knob is in the middle of those values.
Yours is definitely acting differently to mine though, what version of the OS have you got installed.
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I'm on 1.1.15 at the moment but was going to try 1.2.0.2 later to see if it makes any difference.
I'm not 100% sure but it seems worse if I use a knob that uses a different parameter page and then try to move the original knob again. Had it jumping up to six increments in the past.
Thanks for looking at this so quickly though Bob.
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Update: i changed to OS to 1.2.0.2 and it's still the same.
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Hi,
I just checked to see if changing params on different pages had an effect here, doing this I also get the jump of 5 like you do.
So params on the same page I get 2, params on different pages I get 5.
Once the knobs are moving though I get no jumps, they are smooth.
Maybe someone from DSI can shed some light on this, I will contact them...
Edit:: Reading the thread again I see you have contacted DSI, did you hear anything?
Edit 2: I tried to PM Carson who is the support guy at DSI but it says that I am blocked from sending PMs to him. So I guess the best bet is to wait for your support request to be answered.
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No reply from support as of yet.
It's definitely a big issue for me. If I wanted to tweak the decay and cutoff at the same time throughout a track for example, it's just a nightmare to try and do it seamlessly. I'm sure there are reasons why it's doing from a coding perspective that may have made sense when they were doing it, such as preventing constant updating of the display when nothing is being touched, but I think they went a bit overboard with it :).
It seems like something that could be easily fixable though.. hopefully they recognise it as a fault.
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It does seem a bit wonky to me.
I'm not sure how I never noticed it before, I wonder if it was introduced with one of the updates.
Also I had the P12 module first so I tend to use the encoders around the screen quite a bit on the P2 as well. Or maybe thats why I use the encoders and I just can't remember. Always possible!
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Hi, I have also not seen this before.
About the same behaviour as BobTheDog.
Filter 1 Cutoff: 0 to 2, not possible to get a 1...
Filter 2 Cutoff: very difficult to get numbers between 160 and 164...
So there is most probably some responsiveness issue with the knobs.
Did you get a reply from DSI support?
Otherwise I look in Tech support site and post also something.
I also tested with the editor I'm busy to build and there it is OK. I have full precision when moving the mouse and the synth follows exactly the value.
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Did you get a reply from DSI support?
Otherwise I look in Tech support site and post also something.
Not yet, I'll report back when I hear anything. Thanks for testing.. it's good to at least know I'm not alone with this issue and it probably affects everyone.
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Filter 1 Cutoff: 0 to 2, not possible to get a 1...
Filter 2 Cutoff: very difficult to get numbers between 160 and 164...
So there is most probably some responsiveness issue with the knobs.
Same issue here for me
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Do you all get the even bigger jumps when you, for example...
Set the cutoff to 50
Wiggle a knob that uses a different parameter page so the screen changes
Turn the cutoff again
Mine jumps to 54-56 or so (or 44-46 if you turn it the other way)
Cheers.
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Do you all get the even bigger jumps when you, for example...
Set the cutoff to 50
Wiggle a knob that uses a different parameter page so the screen changes
Turn the cutoff again
Mine jumps to 54-56 or so (or 44-46 if you turn it the other way)
Cheers.
Just did the test and I confirm it is also like that on my Pro2
Filter1 cutoff on 50
Modify Filter2 Resonance
Slightly move Filter1 Cutoff and first figure shown is 45
So... Something for DSI to check.
I must also mention that indeed the upper knobs allows moving figures 1 by 1.
So using the main knobs for fast movements but then use the top ones for more precise ones.
This is probably the intended way of working...
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I must also mention that indeed the upper knobs allows moving figures 1 by 1.
So using the main knobs for fast movements but then use the top ones for more precise ones.
This is probably the intended way of working...
Thanks for checking. I can't imagine that is the intent to be honest though... you can't use the parameter page encoders if you need to tweak filter 1 and 2 simultaneously (for example). You're stuck using the jumpy pots :)
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Do you all get the even bigger jumps when you, for example...
Set the cutoff to 50
Wiggle a knob that uses a different parameter page so the screen changes
Turn the cutoff again
Mine jumps to 54-56 or so (or 44-46 if you turn it the other way)
Cheers.
Yep, same here again!
I haven't found it to be a huge issue tbh, but it's a little annoying. Also, the refresh rate of the screen is not smooth at all - whereas I read that it was in a previous OS. Maybe the current OS workload is too much for the CPU
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Is anyone still on the very first OS and could test it as well?
I'd be interested to know if this happens with the original firmware or if it's a bug introduced at a later date.
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I have 1.1.0
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I can adjust the knobs on mine with increments of 1.
All the knobs? I'm just asking, since this only works with the detented enconders in my case.
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Well the ones I tried, cutoff and res for the filters.
I get the initial jump (2 or 5) and then they increment by 1.
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Well the ones I tried, cutoff and res for the filters.
I get the initial jump (2 or 5) and then they increment by 1.
Gotcha. Yes that happens on mine as well. The jumps appear not only after using the pot for the first time though, but at any time at the extremes. On mine it's impossible to dial in "1" if I start from zero, it will always jump directly to "2" at least. Same for the opposite/maximum value. I can dial in "1" though from a higher value. If I want precise values, I always only use the detented encoders above the display. Conceptionally, the pots always seemed to me for dialing in approximate values.
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I must admit I tend to use the encoders as they are always in the "correct" place!
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Case details so far:
Hi Adam-
Thanks for contacting DSI/Sequential. I'm happy to answer your questions and offer you assistance with your Pro 2. What's the serial number for your synth, and when/where did you purchase it?
First, it's good to note that any time you are using your Pro 2 in a MIDI feedback loop with a DAW or other hardware MIDI devices, this can cause small amounts of latency which, even if it's only a few milliseconds, can possible affect performance. The degree to which this may or may not happen depends on many factors, including the number of devices in a MIDI chain, computer processor power and software resource intensity. Regarding the video example you linked to specifically, are you in a MIDI loop here, as well (with Local Off, I presume)? Does your Pro 2 seem to behave any differently when edited standalone, with no USB/MIDI cables attached?
There are a few other factors that I'll mention that can affect control performance in general, in applications in which an analog potentiometer is digitally scanned and read by a microprocessor, as in most synthesizer applications (the Prophet 5 in 1978 was the first!). The first is hysteresis, which is necessary to smooth out performance. This creates a small amount of "wiggle room" on either end when you turn the pots. The second is the acceleration algorithm that we employ, which is used to increment/decrement greater values when the pots are spun more quickly. Although these factors may or may not be at play in your specific MIDI feedback look scenario, I thought I'd mention them anyway.
Fortunately, thanks to the soft knob/soft button navigation system in conjunction with the OLED display, you can always use a detented rotary encoder to make single value adjustments quickly, if you're having difficult dialing in an exact value with a potentiometer in your particular setup.
I hope this helps. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.
Best,
Andy
Dave Smith Instruments
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April 11, 2016, 18:37
Adam Cummings
Hi Andy,
Thanks for the reply.
This occurs when no sound is playing and no midi/usb cables are attached. I actually created a forum post for it and it seems like quite a few people are having the same issue:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,442.0.html
I tried several different OS versions (1.1.15 and 1.2.0.2). The main issue for me here is that if I want to simultanously tweak a few parameters such as cutoff and decay for lets say a bassline, I can't do it without big jumps in the sound. In such cases I can't use the dented knobs either as most knobs are on different parameter pages. If using knobs that switch between parameter pages, the jumps are around 5-6 increments as well, which is pretty high in my opinion.
Is it possible to maybe increase the sensitivity? Or maybe provide a setting in the globals for people to adjust it?
Many thanks,
Adam
April 12, 2016, 01:37
Adam Cummings
I'll be in touch soon with the serial number - I'll have to check when I get home.
I bought it on 26th Nov 2015 from DV247.com here in the UK.
Thanks,
Adam
April 12, 2016, 01:39
Andy Lambert
Dave Smith Instruments
Hi Adam-
Thanks for your response. For clarification, the behavior depicted in the video you linked to is with your Pro 2 in a MIDI feedback loop with Local Off, correct? On the Pro 2 on my desk here, I'm not seeing jumps of 5 or 6 values on the display with small knob movements when the synth is operating standalone (not in a MIDI Feedback loop).
Also, I should note that with all of our instruments, audio is always prioritized over display update behavior, so that above all else, when you manipulate a control, you hear the effect in real time. While displays have become essential editing tools for many of us, myself included, your ears are always the ultimate test!
Thanks for linking to the thread you started on our official forum. We do read what gets posted there, though often other responsibilities make it difficult to do so right away. With technical support matters it's usually most effective for us to address users on an individual basis, as there are almost always individual factors at play when it comes to users experiencing a particular issue. Looking through the forum thread, it seems that what's being reported is explained either by potentiometer hysteresis or the display update priorities. If any user feels that this explanation doesn't account for what they are experiencing, I would encourage them to contact us directly here at technical support.
Regarding the example you give of editing multiple parameters that are on different pages simultaneously, you make a valid point in terms of not being able to use the soft encoders to dial in very small incremental changes in this context. However, from my personal experience using the Pro 2 in a live situation, as well as the more targeted experimentation I've done with the synth today preparing my response, I haven't encountered a scenario in which I get audible jumps when I'm tweaking controls. If you are encountering audible jumps when you're tweaking the front panel pots live, please let me know, along with steps for reproduction! We would definitely want to know if something like that were occurring.
I hope this helps. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.
Best,
Andy
Dave Smith Instruments
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April 12, 2016, 15:57
Adam Cummings
Hi Andy,
Thanks again for your detailed reply.
In the example I showed there's no cables plugged in other than the power cable, so definitely no midi loop.
It's set to local on but I'm not playing any notes.
It's not exactly an issue with display updates as I'm not too bothered about what the screen actually shows - I used that as an example to show that the jumps are happening. The "wiggle room" either side of the knobs produces no change in sound whatsoever and then the display finally jumps 4-5 increments, the audio jumps along with it (only by a bit as the 4-5 increments would suggest.. but it's definitely audible and makes live tweaking of knobs a quite difficult).
That's the main issue you see.. either side of the knobs there's like a "dead zone" where nothing happens to the audio.
I'll have a play tonight and figure out an exact process to recreate this for you. I'll start with a basic patch with no modifiers and I'll also upload a video.
Thanks,
Adam"
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Hi guys,
My tuppence worth. I think I have the same issue with some of my knobs. One thing I've noticed is that if I'm trying to "zero" a parameter that's say, set at +3, it can be easier if I move the value up and then try to move back to zero rather than trying to "nudge" it down from the initial +3. When I do that, it usually overshoots to a minus value and then the same when I try to correct.
Hope that makes sense. :)
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I think this knob behaviour has been present on all DSI synths since the Prophet 12. The values skipped depend on the range of values for a specific knob. If I recall, a 0-127 range knob has to move by +-3 to get focus and be accurately tracked. On a knob with a wider range - filter cutoff or, even more noticeably, filter envelope amount (which goes from -127 to +127) I think it had to move by +-6 to get focus.
I've always assumed it is a filtering of the physical controls to eliminate any jitter. The Prophet 08 does this too but the tolerances are much finer so it only skips +-1 and the timeout before it filters again is longer. It's not something I ever notice on the '08 but it irritated me on the 12 and Pro 2.
If you hook up a Prophet-6 to a midi monitor or the Soundtower editor it does exactly the same thing too. It's less obvious without a display but very subtle oscillator detuning is trickier than it should be as a result.
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Hi Folks,
are there any news regarding this topic or a solution ? I have this Problem too and its very annoying especially at Filter 1. I have seen it at some other knobs too, but not all. IS there any Solution like changing the Potentiometers ?
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It is a software thing, maybe they will improve it with the next update?