The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Tempest => Topic started by: zenner on March 04, 2020, 07:37:21 AM
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It would be great to develop an Euclidean Rhythms option in the sequencer. ;D
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...and randomized/parameterized trigs, and sane mix/voice assignment features, and better distortion, and external sequencing, and a better song mode, and 16 dedicated step buttons separate from the pads...
I'm sure they'll get to it next year ;) Until then...music!
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Tempest development has stopped i’m afraid so we won’t see any updates from the lips of Dave Smith himself.
Now we can only wait for a Tempest II.
Hear..hear...Dave!
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Tempest development has stopped i’m afraid so we won’t see any updates from the lips of Dave Smith himself.
Now we can only wait for a Tempest II.
Hear..hear...Dave!
no. no Mk2.
Besides, even if someday a Mk2 would appear around the corner, I don't think the music of the guys who're trolling the MkI will become that much better..
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Tempest development has stopped i’m afraid so we won’t see any updates from the lips of Dave Smith himself.
Now we can only wait for a Tempest II.
Hear..hear...Dave!
Stopping development of a product without bringing it to completion was a bad idea. Releasing a new version of that product and not compensating those that are still waiting for promised features seems unethical.
I love the Tempest! I wish nothing but success for Dave and co. I just think a little justice is deserved when it comes to the Tempest and speculating on improvements.
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Tempest development has stopped i’m afraid so we won’t see any updates from the lips of Dave Smith himself.
Now we can only wait for a Tempest II.
Hear..hear...Dave!
Stopping development of a product without bringing it to completion was a bad idea. Releasing a new version of that product and not compensating those that are still waiting for promised features seems unethical.
I love the Tempest! I wish nothing but success for Dave and co. I just think a little justice is deserved when it comes to the Tempest and speculating on improvements.
I agree with You, mr Stoss. I personally returned the Tempest to shop after using it for about 20 days because of the unsolvable problems with "loop screen" function and odd time signatures.
Although I found the interface and sound of the Tempest meeting my expectations, I felt disappointed with Sequential abandoning their product and I couldn't justify keeping it.
I would not buy a second edition of Tempest, bearing in mind my disillusionment with the imperfections of the instrument. However, I didn't turn away from Sequential completly - recently i bought the OB-6 and I like it very much.
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The tragedy of the Tempest is not in the lofty list of unrealized features that so many people got hung up on, like sample import and the likes; but rather, it's about the elegance and simplicity that got lost along the way.
At its inception, there were just a handful of things remaining on the to-do list:
- fix the lagging MIDI clock output
- add odd time signatures, and one overlooked LFO time division (dotted 8th's)
- get the legato mode and LFO sync working
- fix the parameter wrap-around on the FX sliders
- patch the hole in the file system
- iron out a few sequencer bugs (flam, flam)
- clean up a few graphics
Otherwise, we were all but there; at least in so far as what was proclaimed in the manual I received with my Tempest.
Had DSI simply focused on fixing those issues, those of us who understood what the Tempest was supposed to be, would have been happy; and five years of bad press, brand damage, and frustration on both sides of the fence would have been averted. Instead, they kept building on a shoddy foundation, chasing functionalities that were never supposed to be there, and pandering to the expectations of DAW-based beat makers; which resulted in over-taxing the processor, with no room left to code, and more than 140 bugs to fix. In some ways, the community at large has only itself to blame.
I still hope that Chris Hector will pop up here one day with a buttoned-up version of the original OS: i.e. no playlist, no external sequencer, no arp, no compressor envelope, no undocumented key-combo short cuts that no one can remember, and a dozen other trivial additions removed... Just a simple and bullet-proof implementation of what the Tempest was originally designed to be.
Had Roger Linn himself overseen the Tempest’s development, all the way, we would absolutely have that machine today. To that end, a LinnDrum 2.0 is coming, and I guarantee that it will do what it says on the tin; so, forget any aspirations of a Tempest sequel.
To the OP… Polymetric and polyrhythmic sequences can indeed be done on the Tempest; albeit only by way of step programming. I have templates for every Euclidean rhythm combination that the Tempest can do in this regard; if I find the time, and can find the files, I’ll post them up here for you. It’s just that I’d have to write an explanation of how they work, because it won’t be obvious at a glance. I did have all this info up on the old forum, but I doubt anyone can access that these days.
Cheers!
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Many moons ago Chris had said that in his “free time” he wanted to rewrite the entire OS from scratch to recoup much of the space lost to a patchwork of code fixes. Wouldn’t it be great if the Pro3 sold so fabulously they found time for a proper Tempest 2.0 OS rewrite. I swear to you right now, if that happened I would buy a Pro3 in support of the effort... and not the cheap one... I’d splurge for that overpriced wood and hinge!
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The tragedy of the Tempest is not in the lofty list of unrealized features that so many people got hung up on, like sample import and the likes; but rather, it's about the elegance and simplicity that got lost along the way.
At its inception, there were just a handful of things remaining on the to-do list:
- fix the lagging MIDI clock output
- add odd time signatures, and one overlooked LFO time division (dotted 8th's)
- get the legato mode and LFO sync working
- fix the parameter wrap-around on the FX sliders
- patch the hole in the file system
- iron out a few sequencer bugs (flam, flam)
- clean up a few graphics
Otherwise, we were all but there; at least in so far as what was proclaimed in the manual I received with my Tempest.
Had DSI simply focused on fixing those issues, those of us who understood what the Tempest was supposed to be, would have been happy; and five years of bad press, brand damage, and frustration on both sides of the fence would have been averted. Instead, they kept building on a shoddy foundation, chasing functionalities that were never supposed to be there, and pandering to the expectations of DAW-based beat makers; which resulted in over-taxing the processor, with no room left to code, and more than 140 bugs to fix. In some ways, the community at large has only itself to blame.
I still hope that Chris Hector will pop up here one day with a buttoned-up version of the original OS: i.e. no playlist, no external sequencer, no arp, no compressor envelope, no undocumented key-combo short cuts that no one can remember, and a dozen other trivial additions removed... Just a simple and bullet-proof implementation of what the Tempest was originally designed to be.
Had Roger Linn himself overseen the Tempest’s development, all the way, we would absolutely have that machine today. To that end, a LinnDrum 2.0 is coming, and I guarantee that it will do what it says on the tin; so, forget any aspirations of a Tempest sequel.
To the OP… Polymetric and polyrhythmic sequences can indeed be done on the Tempest; albeit only by way of step programming. I have templates for every Euclidean rhythm combination that the Tempest can do in this regard; if I find the time, and can find the files, I’ll post them up here for you. It’s just that I’d have to write an explanation of how they work, because it won’t be obvious at a glance. I did have all this info up on the old forum, but I doubt anyone can access that these days.
Cheers!
Are you sure about a LinnDrum 2.0? If so, can you provide a good link with a rundown of its features?
My heart personally sank a bit when reading about some of the issues with the Tempest, I just purchased one used. But so far I've been pretty much loving the idea of using it as a solid drum machine and percussive instrument after using it a bit.
I think it could have been a lot simpler. But I'm also an engineer and I can only imagine how hard it must have been to try pull a lot of these features off once the ball got rolling.
Since I'm trying to be DAW-less more or less, I was planning on recording live in playlist mode until I get my chance at owning a Cirklon, but alas playlist mode live recording is a no-go. If and when I get a Cirklon, I figured my Tempest would mainly serve as a sound design machine and beat maker.
But I'm very interested in a LinnDrum 2.0 if that's really a thing. Dave Smith makes great synths, Roger Linn makes great drum machines, it'd probably make sense to keep those two domains decoupled.
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Yes, I'm sure. That's all I can say. It's a ways off yet, but the LD2 is coming (wink).
As far as the bugs that remain in the Tempest are concerned, some people don't seem to be too bothered by them. It depends on your workflow really. Case in point, you've found the playlist bug; whereas I'd just as soon the playlist feature be removed altogether, to free up space for what I see as more important fixes to core functionality. But, see, I don't use the playlist, nor was it a part of the original spec, so...
I sampled all my Tempest sounds into an MPC Live, over a year ago now, because the Tempest has an uncanny way of falling short, just shy of the finish line, no matter how I try to integrate it into the rest of my live rig. I always run into some paradox or stumbling block, be it a design choice or a firmware bug. Used on its own, however, it's mostly stable and certainly a lot of fun. But I need a drum machine that plays well with others.
Cheers!
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Hey John i have your odd time signature files that you’ve sent me lying around here..Do you I have your permission to upload it in this forum for Tempest users?Also i could try finding your explanation in the old forum via web archive or something..
As for the playlist feature I’ve uploaded legacy OS 1.4.5.14 which works with another bug compromise in loading sounds fast via softknob I’m afraid..
Login and you’ll find it at the bottom of the 1st post here:
https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,586.0.html
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Hi Yorgos,
I can't believe you still have those (smirk).
Anyway, no, I did find the files here, and I'm sure I've made a ton of changes to them since (presumably for the better); so, I'll upload them myself, with a new and hopefully more concise explanation of how they work. That said, it's 4a.m. here in my part of the world, so y'all will have to wait till tomorrow (wink)...
Cheers!
Zzz...
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Legend! :D
Hi Yorgos,
I can't believe you still have those (smirk).
Anyway, no, I did find the files here, and I'm sure I've made a ton of changes to them since (presumably for the better); so, I'll upload them myself, with a new and hopefully more concise explanation of how they work. That said, it's 4a.m. here in my part of the world, so y'all will have to wait till tomorrow (wink)...
Cheers!
Zzz...
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Yes, I'm sure. That's all I can say. It's a ways off yet, but the LD2 is coming (wink).
Ah, seems like he's been talking about this openly for some time. I guess I'm just late to the party.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDotr1lmNwI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVEems2eudw
Anyway, don't mean to derail the thread, carry on.
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Yes, but I promise you that it is actually taking shape (wink).
Cheers!
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- get the legato mode and LFO sync working
I thought LFO sync was 'fixed'? It certainly works a lot better than it did!
I never use the playlist function. Surely that's been a documented feature in there since day one though (even if it didn't work) as it's actually on the front of the machine?!
I still use mine all the time and I still love it, despite its failings. For me the main flaw is the lack of a comprehensive MIDI implementation which would at least have meant it could have been sequenced externally to bypass the limits of the internal sequencer. You can still do this to an extent (it's what I do to get more complex rhythms going) but I long for pitch and a couple of CCs per voice.
Is there anything out there that beats it in terms of a fully multi-timbral analog poly?
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I thought LFO sync was 'fixed'? It certainly works a lot better than it did!
I never use the playlist function. Surely that's been a documented feature in there since day one though (even if it didn't work) as it's actually on the front of the machine?!
I still use mine all the time and I still love it, despite its failings. For me the main flaw is the lack of a comprehensive MIDI implementation which would at least have meant it could have been sequenced externally to bypass the limits of the internal sequencer. You can still do this to an extent (it's what I do to get more complex rhythms going) but I long for pitch and a couple of CCs per voice.
Is there anything out there that beats it in terms of a fully multi-timbral analog poly?
As per the LFO sync - you've either misread or misconstrued the context of what I said there.
Playlist functionality - was NOT in the original manual, operating system, or specs.
The lack of a comprehensive MIDI implementation, as an example, is just one of many reasons why I said that the Tempest always falls short for me, no matter how I presume to use it or integrate it with the rest of my studio or live rig.
I'm not really interested in speculating as to whether or not there's "anything out there that beats it". That doesn't really pertain to the point I was making, and is highly subjective at best.
Cheers!
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Playlist functionality - was NOT in the original manual, operating system, or specs.
I dunno, possibly not but it must have been there from pretty early on! My manual is v1.0 dated Sept 2011 and it's in there as a feature 'not implemented yet'. Do Tempests exist without 'playlist' on the front panel?
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You know what, yes, it seems that Playlist was there from the beginning. My mistake on that one. It's been a while. And yet, that functionality remains broken. Regardless, my point remains the same, and that detail only stands to fortify it. As far as everyone who was involved in its development are concerned, from Roger Linn all the way down to lowly ol' me, the Tempest's OS was mismanaged, overextended, and there's a lot of garbage in there as a result. Beyond that, dude, I'm not interested in splitting hairs with people on this... Again.
Back to the topic of the thread, those Euclidean rhythm templates are coming. I'm just really busy right now - mostly managing the fallout of cancelled gigs, because apparently the world is ending. ::)
Cheers!
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No better time for music production :P
I'm just really busy right now - mostly managing the fallout of cancelled gigs, because apparently the world is ending. ::)
Cheers!
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Okay, folks, as promised, polyrhythms for your Tempest! You know, should you find yourselves as cooped-up and bored as I am.
I’ve decided to post these in batches, mostly so it won’t seem as overwhelming. In total, there are 6 polymeter templates, and 11 polyrhythm templates. Together, they cover every possible polyrhythmic combination that the Tempest is capable of. I’ll start with the 6 polymeter templates, because they are easier to explain and visualize, and therefore a better way to get to grips with the concept.
Before I talk about how they work, let me first say, forget what you know about making sequences on the Tempest, and this will all be a lot easier. ;) You don’t have to record or enter any notes into the sequencer, because I’ve already done that for you. You could think of it like using the Tempest as an old-school modular sequencer, wherein all the steps are fixed, and you just get to decide which ones are active, and make changes to the sound on each step. It’s also worth noting that these templates are really only good for standalone use: i.e. because of the math involved, it was necessary to use odd time signatures, step divisions, bar counts, and extreme tempos to create these sequences and make them loop seamlessly; so, there are limited tempo ranges within which they are usable, and it won’t be practical (though not impossible I suppose) to sync them with your other gear.
Each template is saved as a beat file. I’ve also attached a Word document containing reference charts, which you will need to refer to, at least until you get to know how the steps of each sequence are laid out on the pads (this will all make more sense when you see it).
I figure the best way to get started is for me to simply talk you through one of the templates while you’re looking at it. So, go ahead and download the files, dump them into your Tempest, and load the beat file named “PolyMETER 23456 & 10”; then switch the pad view to 16 Mutes – Sound Bank A. *Don’t change the mute status of any of the pads (yet). Now open the Word document, and you’ll see that the first chart on the page has the same name… That’s your road map for this template. What you’re looking at here is a graphical representation of the pads on your Tempest, and their current mute status, for both Bank A (bottom 2 rows) and Bank B (top 2 rows).
What you should be seeing on your Tempest (in 16 Mutes mode, Bank A) is the pads lit in groups: i.e. a group of 2 and a group of 5 (on pads 1—8), and a group of 3 and a group of 4 (on pads 9—16). Hopefully its obvious how that correlates with the related chart on the Word doc; but, to be thorough, basically the coloured squares on the chart represent the unmuted pads, and how they are grouped together (colour-coded in this case simply to distinguish each group). The dark squares indicate inactive pads. I’ve also labelled the pads on the OLED screen (lead, bass, and other), but only as a visual cue to further help distinguish each group; the names themselves are otherwise arbitrary.
Let’s make some noise…
Change your BPM to the tempo I’ve recommended (80bpm in this case), and press play. Look at the group of 2… You’ll see by the lights blinking that it cycles back and forth like a sequence unto itself: 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2… Now, look at the group of 3, and you’ll see that it also cycles in a sequence unto itself: 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3… And the same is true of the group of 4 and the group of 5. Each little sequence plodding away at the same tempo and time division, but with a different step count. This is polymeter. Of course, right now, all you’re hearing is a chorus of bloop, bloop, bloop… All in unison, all with the same sound. Bare with me.
The trick here is to think of the pad mutes as on/off switches for the “steps” or “trigs” in each of these groups of notes or “sequences” if you will. Go ahead and mute the middle step in the group of 3, for instance, and you’ll see that it still counts in a cycle of three, but the middle “step” is no longer sounding (of course, at this point, you’re still listening to the steps in all the other sequences playing simultaneously; so, it won’t be obvious that the step is muted, but it is). Moving on… Unmute that pad again, and let’s try something more obvious. Go to Sound Bank B and mute ALL the pads, then come back to Bank A and mute all the pads except for the first one in each group… Now it should be more obvious that each “sequence” of notes is cycling independently of each other, and you’ll be hearing a true 2 against 3 against 4 against 5 polymetric phrase.
Still with me?
Now let’s change the sound on one of the steps. Let’s keep the current mute status for now. Switch to 16 Sounds mode, tap Pad A1, and start tweaking any of the sound parameters for that pad (FYI, just for fun, I set up some basic LFO routings in the mod matrix, so all you have to do is add an amount). Now try doing the same with Pads A4, A9, and A13. The effects of all this should be obvious enough, and by now you should be seeing the potential of these templates. Of course, you could also just load your own sounds onto each “step” this way, but I kind of like the pseudo-modular aspect of this approach. It’s up to you. In the end, all you need to remember is that Mutes are what you use to turn the “steps” on and off, and Sounds mode is where you select a “step” in order to edit the sound on it. You could think of this as a type of “parameter locking” (à la Elektron).
And, of course, you can use any combination of these little sequences together, at the same, with any or all of the steps active in each, and whatever sound you want on each step. Bank B in this template, by the way, as you’ll see in the reference chart, is comprised of two more, slightly longer sequences: a 10 step sequence and a 6 step sequence. They work the same as the others, and can be used at the same time as well.
Okay, now that you know how this particular template works, hopefully you’ll be able to figure the rest out using their respective reference charts. To that end, I’m going to stop talking now, and see if my instructions don't prove adequate. :P If not, feel free to ask questions. Lord knows, I’ve got the time now to answer a few.
Stay healthy, y’all.
Cheers!
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You’re the man Johnnyboy :P
Time for some action!
With all this time in my hand now with this corona ish just started to built a new tasty set of Genre specific kits..
Stay tuned and healthy people!
Okay, folks, as promised, polyrhythms for your Tempest! You know, should you find yourselves as cooped-up and bored as I am.
I’ve decided to post these in batches, mostly so it won’t seem as overwhelming. In total, there are 6 polymeter templates, and 11 polyrhythm templates. Together, they cover every possible polyrhythmic combination that the Tempest is capable of. I’ll start with the 6 polymeter templates, because they are easier to explain and visualize, and therefore a better way to get to grips with the concept.
Before I talk about how they work, let me first say, forget what you know about making sequences on the Tempest, and this will all be a lot easier. ;) You don’t have to record or enter any notes into the sequencer, because I’ve already done that for you. You could think of it like using the Tempest as an old-school modular sequencer, wherein all the steps are fixed, and you just get to decide which ones are active, and make changes to the sound on each step. It’s also worth noting that these templates are really only good for standalone use: i.e. because of the math involved, it was necessary to use odd time signatures, step divisions, bar counts, and extreme tempos to create these sequences and make them loop seamlessly; so, there are limited tempo ranges within which they are usable, and it won’t be practical (though not impossible I suppose) to sync them with your other gear.
Each template is saved as a beat file. I’ve also attached a Word document containing reference charts, which you will need to refer to, at least until you get to know how the steps of each sequence are laid out on the pads (this will all make more sense when you see it).
I figure the best way to get started is for me to simply talk you through one of the templates while you’re looking at it. So, go ahead and download the files, dump them into your Tempest, and load the beat file named “PolyMETER 23456 & 10”; then switch the pad view to 16 Mutes – Sound Bank A. *Don’t change the mute status of any of the pads (yet). Now open the Word document, and you’ll see that the first chart on the page has the same name… That’s your road map for this template. What you’re looking at here is a graphical representation of the pads on your Tempest, and their current mute status, for both Bank A (bottom 2 rows) and Bank B (top 2 rows).
What you should be seeing on your Tempest (in 16 Mutes mode, Bank A) is the pads lit in groups: i.e. a group of 2 and a group of 5 (on pads 1—8), and a group of 3 and a group of 4 (on pads 9—16). Hopefully its obvious how that correlates with the related chart on the Word doc; but, to be thorough, basically the coloured squares on the chart represent the unmuted pads, and how they are grouped together (colour-coded in this case simply to distinguish each group). The dark squares indicate inactive pads. I’ve also labelled the pads on the OLED screen (lead, bass, and other), but only as a visual cue to further help distinguish each group; the names themselves are otherwise arbitrary.
Let’s make some noise…
Change your BPM to the tempo I’ve recommended (80bpm in this case), and press play. Look at the group of 2… You’ll see by the lights blinking that it cycles back and forth like a sequence unto itself: 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2… Now, look at the group of 3, and you’ll see that it also cycles in a sequence unto itself: 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3… And the same is true of the group of 4 and the group of 5. Each little sequence plodding away at the same tempo and time division, but with a different step count. This is polymeter. Of course, right now, all you’re hearing is a chorus of bloop, bloop, bloop… All in unison, all with the same sound. Bare with me.
The trick here is to think of the pad mutes as on/off switches for the “steps” or “trigs” in each of these groups of notes or “sequences” if you will. Go ahead and mute the middle step in the group of 3, for instance, and you’ll see that it still counts in a cycle of three, but the middle “step” is no longer sounding (of course, at this point, you’re still listening to the steps in all the other sequences playing simultaneously; so, it won’t be obvious that the step is muted, but it is). Moving on… Unmute that pad again, and let’s try something more obvious. Go to Sound Bank B and mute ALL the pads, then come back to Bank A and mute all the pads except for the first one in each group… Now it should be more obvious that each “sequence” of notes is cycling independently of each other, and you’ll be hearing a true 2 against 3 against 4 against 5 polymetric phrase.
Still with me?
Now let’s change the sound on one of the steps. Let’s keep the current mute status for now. Switch to 16 Sounds mode, tap Pad A1, and tweak any of the sound parameters (FYI, just for fun, I set up some LFO routings in the mod matrix, so all you have to do is add an amount). The effects of this should be obvious enough, and by now you should be seeing the potential of these templates. Of course, you could also just load your own prefab sounds onto each “step” this way, but I kind of like the pseudo-modular aspect of this approach. It’s up to you. In the end, all you need to remember is that Mutes are what you use to turn the “steps” on and off, and Sounds mode is where you select a “step” in order to edit the sound on it. You could think of this as a type of “parameter locking” (à la Elektron).
And, of course, you can use any combination of these little sequences together, at the same, with any or all of the steps active in each, and whatever sound you want on each step. Bank B in this template, by the way, as you’ll see in the reference chart, is comprised of two sequences: a 10 step sequence and a 6 step sequence. They work the same as the others, and can be used at the same time as well.
Okay, now that you know how this particular template works, hopefully you’ll be able to figure the rest out using their respective reference charts. To that end, I’m going to stop talking now, and see if my instructions don't prove adequate. :P If not, feel free to ask questions. Lord knows, I’ve got the time now to answer a few.
Stay healthy, y’all.
Cheers!
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Just tried you poly's John...Wow what an amazing work!
Keep it up and thanks for taking the time to do it! :D
I'll put it inside the various tempest patches if that's ok with you..
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Thanks, Yorgos! Sure, man, do whatever you want with them. I'll try to post the polyrhythm templates tomorrow...
Cheers!
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For anyone interested, I started a new thread for this stuff...
https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,4201.0.html
Cheers!