The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Tempest => Topic started by: John the Savage on March 25, 2016, 04:41:13 AM
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Just addressing Carson's comments about the Tempest petition since he 'locked' the other topic:
The description in the campaign is interesting, though somewhat misleading. The vast majority of Tempest owners are happily making music with it...
Um, evidently there are more than a trivial number of Tempest owners out there to whom this matters, Carson.
Most importantly, if anybody had contacted us directly at DSI support to ask whether we have quit development on the Tempest, we would have told them no. We do intend to continue, and finish, development of the Tempest.
Oh, but we have contacted DSI, repeatedly in fact, only to be patronized. Besides which, this campaign isn't about what you say you're going to do; it's about what you've actually done. Many of these bugs have allegedly been "on your list" for years now. And make no mistake about it, that's what this is about.
Separately, the campaign appears to be an inaccurate representation of Tempest users since there’s no way to qualify who is an owner and who is not.
That's right, Carson, we're making all of this up. The petition signees, the entire conversation at Synthtopia, the 32 thousand posts on the other DSI forum... All persons and opinions fabricated by an insignificant group of malcontents with a hate-on for DSI. Whatever helps you sleep at night, man.
As the Tempest currently stands (OS 1.4), there are some valid and somewhat annoying bugs that are present. Most everything listed on the campaign is on our bug list of items to consider for fixing/implementation.
How much longer are these "annoying bugs" to be under consideration exactly? I can tell you how long they've been annoying me!
The Tempest is a mature product (Shoot! 5 years is long enough for humans), and there have been many improvements made and features added which were not explicitly called out for implementation when the product was released. Because we are a small company and constantly produce new instruments, we have to rotate between updates for all instruments. I will reiterate, we DO intend to release another update for it.
Okay... When? And can I have my money back to hold in trust until that happens?
If users are actually unable to back up their work, please contact us directly at DSI support. This would be a serious problem, but I am unaware of any users contacting us in this regard.
What good is a successful back-up if there are still issues with loading older projects and sound files?
1. Tempest not being able to discern between note 'velocity' and pad 'pressure'...
Velocity and pressure are derived from the same sensor, a force sensing resistor. That means that when a pad is played, velocity is the near instantaneous change in resistance from off to on. The question is, when should the continuous change in resistance start acting as pressure? How long do we wait before interpreting the sensor data as pressure? Adding a small fixed delay to onset of pressure might help, though I can imagine situations where you would also want pressure to react immediately.
Velocity and pad pressure should be separate and will get looked into. There is already a timeout because the pads don't rise to the correct velocity immediately, I just need to tune the timeout for the aftertouch response.
You see, Carson, we are listening, so I suggest you get your stories straight.
2. Note sustain without a duration limit...
This is a feature request, not a bug. The duration of a step must be held in memory so it can be saved/reloaded etc. Memory is not infinite.
Note sustain without a duration limit causes a problem with the automatic voice allocation behavior. I do consider it a bug, but due to the way everything is integrated it's not simple to change. I tried it a while back and it led to some more annoying bugs so it's on the back burner right now.
So now it's a memory thing is it?
3. "MIDI sequencer sound" prevents the corresponding internal sound from triggering, yet the 'OFF' setting remains broken...
This is on our bug list.
This is a bug and is fixed in my latest beta.
That was two official operating systems ago, so what happened to this fix?
4. Adding swing to the 'ROLL/ARP' function...
Not really a bug, more of a worklfow/feature request. It's on our request list for consideration.
I'll be adding a flag so the sound roll will swing, that's about done.
That's funny, according your chief programmer, it's been done for two years already. So where is it, Carson, since you think we're all just wining?
5. The missing "Env Shape" parameter as seen on page 16. of Operation Manual 1.0...
When the 1.0 manual and 1.0 Tempest was released, it was explicitly stated that the unit was not complete and that it and the manual was subject to change. Most of these changes (all the way to 1.4) were welcome additions and fixes. I was not with the company officially when the Tempest was released, though I would imagine that "env shape" was removed as a design/navigation consideration.
The envelope shape can be modulated via the mod matrix or using the pitch and aux envelops to change its shape.
Yes, but why should we have to waste a mod slot for every envelope we want to shape, when the parameter we need is right there in the original manual? You know, the manual you kept encouraging us to read; the one we used to educate our purchase back when all these promises were still on the table.
6. Basic file management...
You already have basic file management. You can save/copy/rename files into a series of directories. It sounds like you want more "organization" functionality which is quite different than stating the Tempest lacks "Basic file management"...
Oh, right, I guess we should have stated more specifically that: when we save one of our 500 sounds 'WE'D LIKE TO KNOW WHERE IT WENT!'
7. The envelope/LFO bug that causes the digital oscillators to quit or otherwise not trigger when modulated to, from, or through a relative 'level' of zero...
Just set the envelope amount value to 1.
This doesn't work if you want to use negative envelope amounts or when using an LFO for that matter. And... It's a BUG!
8. Tempest not remembering the folder-of-origin when saving...
I cannot speak to the reason for this as I have not spoken with Chris about it.
Well, I have, and allegedly it's one of those "easy" fixes that Dave Smith just can't be bothered to allot him the time to fix.
9. 'Key Follow OFF' not working for the digital osc's...
on our list. Not sure if possible due to the SAM chip itself.
10. Glide not working for the digital osc's...
See #9 .
11. Pitch Bend not working for the digital oscillators...
See #9 .
Okay, so, all of the above are both in the manual and have been present in every incarnation of the operating system to date. Of course, they have never worked. And now we're supposed to believe that you embarked on this without actually knowing whether or not the chip could be programmed to do these tasks... Seriously?
12. The ever-present but still not functional Glide/Legato modes...
It’s on our list. I'm not personally aware of the reasons for this.
Okay, but Chris does, and it still needs to be implemented. Again, there it is in the manual and in the operating system, doing nothing. This one was a real selling point too!
13. The 'Playlist' crash bug...
I'm not sure I'm familiar with this one specifically. If it has been reported to support and reproduced, then it should be on our list. If nobody has reported it, please open a support ticket.
Okay. Could someone please report this... Again (sigh)?
14. Using the 'ROLL' function to record a part causes other pads to randomly trigger...
I've seen this before and believe it's related to a strange issue where the sound initialization procedure and/or file corruption issue. If I had to guess, it could be related to files saved on specific (non official) operating system releases or by users changing the initialize settings in the debug menu. Does this happen on the official 1.4 OS with a newly created file?
Yes, it happens with newly created files in OS 1.4. It's related to the ARP, and Chris allegedly has it isolated, but again... When will it be fixed?
I fixed the bug where roll is causing problems when the erase was on. It was specifically tied to the arp. The behavior didn't occur when it was doing retrigger normally. I figure this will help me narrow it down and find out what's causing the inconsistency, I'll let you know when I find it.
See, we listen!
15. Using the 'ROLL' function to record in '16 Levels' mode fails to record the correct velocities: i.e. it only repeats the velocity of the lowest pad pressed...
It’s on our list.
16. Recording a 'ROLL' with a sound assigned to a voice results in the pad lighting up as if it is being triggered, yet there is no sound...
It’s on our list.
Yes, yes, they're all "on your list"... Precisely our point really. And so they're going to be fixed when exactly?
17. There is an advanced bug that causes the pad names to randomly change when auditioning sounds; it happens most predictably when you have auditioned a sound from one pad and then try to audition a sound from another pad. When this happens the available sound folder also changes, not just the pad name: i.e. the 'Kick' pad, for instance, will suddenly become a 'Snare' pad - *which instantly loads a snare sound by the way (devastating!) - after which you can no longer access the kick folder from that pad at all, unless you "revert" the sound...
Not an advanced bug at all and certainly does not block access to any sound. The description is a bit overblown, however, it’s on our list.
Did I say "advanced"? Sorry, I was just trying to distinguish it from the other two pad name bugs that Chris and I have been going back and forth on for months. But since it's so pedestrian, Carson, it shouldn't take much in the way of time and resources to fix it, right?
18. If the Tempest receives a RAM sound dump via USB, while also receiving note-on/off data on the MIDI DIN input, then USB MIDI sys-ex is not received correctly half of the time: i.e. it just stands there waiting for MIDI data in those cases.
It is not advised to use USB and MIDI at the same time for MIDI input. This is true for all of our instruments.
Chris publicly acknowledged this as a bug in this very forum, and repeatedly promised 'Razmo' (who brought this to our attention) that it could be and indeed would be fixed. Hell, if I remember correctly, he even said it was fixed and would be in the release of OS 1.4. So who are we to believe if not the guy writing the code? And by the way, it works in the Evolver!
20. When switching beats on-the-fly, the first step of the sequencer-out is consistently late; so if you're triggering a sample loop on the one, every time you switch beats on the Tempest, it will be out of sync for the first pass...
I would guess that this initial latency is due to higher priority tasks being performed when changing beats. There's a whole lot of data to load very quickly on a beat change and keeping the internal sound engine in time and performing as expected is certainly It's also worth noting that the "sequencer out" parameter was added by Chris on his own accord. Sequencing external instruments from the Tempest was never stated as a feature when the Tempest was released.
Internal latency indeed! But you're right, Carson, this feature was never supposed to be in the operating system; yet we still can't shut it 'OFF' so we can use that pad for our internal sounds, as was intended by design when we purchased the Tempest. See #3
21. Pad names need to be added for all the sound folders, and vice versa. And many of the existing pad names need to be properly linked to their respective parent folders, so "Tamb" doesn't default to "Shaker", etc. when auditioning sounds (not to be confused with point 17. which is a completely different bug)...
This is half feature request and half bug, and fairly low priority in the scheme of things. It falls into the “nice to have” category.
So half-fix it then! At any rate, I happen to know that it's already fixed; but then, Chris would have to be given the time to compile a proper update now wouldn't he?
Right, that's the sound type bug I just fixed. It was setting the pad kit sound to the default for the directory you were auditioning sounds in.
22. When triggered via MIDI, sustained ADSR sounds hang whenever the bank those sounds are from is not the currently selected bank...
It’s on our list.
So fix it!
23. The Tempest's timing drifts in 'Slave' mode when using the MIDI DIN input, gradually losing sync with the 'Master' clock source; and this behavior is further exacerbated with use of the 'ROLL' function...
I cannot speak to the accuracy of this statement. I have no information regarding the performed tests, loaded OS versions, settings, and overall method. We have an Innerclock System in the office that we can use to verify this is true. Whoever is experiencing this drift, please open a support ticket with us and provide detailed step-by-step instructions for reproducing this and we will look into it.
Sometime this decade then?
For all current and prospective Tempest owners out there, please understand that we are aware of your concerns and appreciate your perspective. We have not abandoned the Tempest OS. Between pushing forward with new designs and refining existing products, there is never a point in time at which we are idle here at DSI. It's a complex balancing act with many variables. We will be revisiting the Tempest OS, and hopefully soon, but the Change.org petition has no bearing on our timeframe, and we can't specifically guarantee when will dive back in.
This will remain our definitive statement on this matter. Thank you for your continued patronage and support.
So there you have it, straight from the proverbial horse's mouth: DSI is happy to take your money; but if you want them to fix the instrument that you paid for, they are simply not concerned with whatever you may think is a reasonable timeframe... Period. And that, folks, is why this petition exist in the first place!
So let's just keep the pressure on and see how this weathers in the real world, where the good people part with their hard-earned to keep the employees at DSI in a job (doing whatever the hell they want apparently).
https://www.change.org/p/dave-smith-help-make-the-tempest-a-priority-for-dave-smith-instruments?recruiter=2593925&utm_source=share_for_starters&utm_medium=copyLink
Cheers!
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+1
Please sign the petition.
We've been waiting for YEARS to get bugs and promised features addressed.
I have invested a lot in DSI (Tempest, Polyevolver, Pro2, Prophet 6), I like to support forward thinking, great sounding musical instruments, but I have to admit that I am thoroughly disappointed and frustrated with DSI leaving us Tempest users hanging for years with promised bug fixes.
Surely they are making enough profit to afford to dedicate existing resources or invest in new resources to support older and new products?
Simon
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so we got good news, things are moving
again, big respect for DSI and Roger Linn
for always staying constructive, friendly and supportive
my respect for you just got even bigger than before -
thanks !
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so we got good news, things are moving
again, big respect for DSI and Roger Linn
for always staying constructive, friendly and supportive
my respect for you just got even bigger than before -
thanks !
I agree!
I was really excited to hear that Roger Linn is getting involved again.
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Have I missed something here?
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Have I missed something here?
Bold doggy! Read all of this: http://dsiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7571 (http://dsiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7571)
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Ah ok I see.
Good to see Roger getting involved, he's a helpful guy. Let's hope he holds some sway.
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It is great to see that in 2016 Roger Linn can produce products as a 1-person company. Hopefully he finds the time to fix up the Tempest.
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Jesus christ... Carson in a nutshell, but I'm not surprised.
I see that he has not understood shit of what I told him about the MIDI DIN bug using SysEx... even after he initially PROMISED me that it was fixed, before I bought the Tempest a second time! ... I have VERY PRECISELY explained to Carson what the bug was about, even AFTER I found out that nothing was fixed after purchasing Tempest the second time...
I also explained it to Chris, and IT WAS CONFIRMED, AND WAS PROMISED TO BE FIXED AS SOON AS HE HAD FINISHED OS UPDATES ON PRO2 AND PROPHET 12!!! ... do I need to say that it has not been fixed yet, and that SEVERAL products was made by DSI since that, and even other OS updates for these newer products was released after?
In short... DSI do not give a shit about their promises, and that's the problem! ... same thing with the Evolver MIDI bugs that was promised fixed more than once, and still waiting for more than 4 years for that fix.
I still have the private emails with Chris where he promised that fix... I can prove it at any time!
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Ouch guys - sold mine a few years back and ended up getting frustrated with the tempest development. Sad to see it's still causing headaches.
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Hi all,
We're getting close to a beta release of a new Tempest update that fixes a lot of bugs. I'll be posting details as we get closer. Thank you for your patience, which I realize has been difficult but I promise you we're working hard on it.
Thanks,
Roger
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Good news :)
Has there been any mention of the possibility of getting the Tempest going as a 6 channel synth with MPE?
Cheers
Andy
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Has there been any mention of the possibility of getting the Tempest going as a 6 channel synth with MPE?
Hi Andy,
I'd love to add MPE to Tempest but I'm afraid it's not very high on Tempest owners' priorities, and there are many other priorities they consider higher. Hopefully the demand for MPE will rise in future when MPE instruments are more widely used.
- Roger
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Hi Roger,
Thanks for the info, I guessed it was wishful thinking.
Cheers
Andy
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Hi all,
We're getting close to a beta release of a new Tempest update that fixes a lot of bugs. I'll be posting details as we get closer. Thank you for your patience, which I realize has been difficult but I promise you we're working hard on it.
Thanks,
Roger
Excellent news
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excellent news indeed!
had it ever been discussed/considered if an exanded memory for samples, sounds and patterns
would be SOFTWARE- and HARDWAREWISE possible?
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Sorry to add here. John had requested I add this comment on the prophet5.org forum (which is currently down) to the petition thread there.
I am seeing some weird stuck note behavior on OS 1.4 with one of the factory projects. Here is a video and a list of instructions:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,524.0.html
I can post inline here too on this thread, but wanted to be conservative in case its not welcome.
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Sorry to add here. John had requested I add this comment on the prophet5.org forum (which is currently down) to the petition thread there.
I am seeing some weird stuck note behavior on OS 1.4 with one of the factory projects. Here is a video and a list of instructions:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,524.0.html
I can post inline here too on this thread, but wanted to be conservative in case its not welcome.
No problem at all letting us know if you find something amiss. In this instance, the behavior that you're noting is known to us, and on our list of things to address with the Tempest OS.
You or John or anyone else is certainly welcome comment in this thread.
Cheers.
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I wonder if the MIDI DIN bug will get fixed... and also if they can somehow get those loop points fixed in the samples...
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I wonder if the MIDI DIN bug will get fixed... and also if they can somehow get those loop points fixed in the samples...
Hi Razmo,
Could you tell me a little more about which bugs you're referring to?
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Many programs are already built on the existing samples, so they will remain as-is.
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Many programs are already built on the existing samples, so they will remain as-is.
This is probably a wise choice, I don't want my saved sounds to go awry. (However there is precedent for doing this as the triangle wave was changed after the fact on the Prophet 12.)
But what about making the start/end adjustable and maybe allowing to switch loop on/off? I realize that delves into feature request territory but it would help with the issue Razmo is talking about where many of the samples have noise from the start/end points not being at a zero crossing.
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Unfortunately, making changes to the embedded sample content is non-trivial and beyond the scope of any future Tempest updates. As such, this request is a firm "no". The samples will remain unchanged.
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Only sample import can save the day then...
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As a Tempest owner myself, I can unequivocally say we all wish that was going to happen!
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I wonder if the MIDI DIN bug will get fixed... and also if they can somehow get those loop points fixed in the samples...
Hi Razmo,
Could you tell me a little more about which bugs you're referring to?
The MIDI DIN bug is a bit hard to describe, but it was confirmed by Chris a long time ago, so if you ask him, I'm sure he'll explain it... but in short, if you turn off Tempest, and then back on, and use ONLY the MIDI DIN connection for dumping SysEx (to the current RAM sound), everything works... but if you at any time before that, have used the USB connection, then dumps sent to MIDI DIN thereafter is scrambled. I'll see if I can find my full explanation of how to recreate the bug.
The sample loop points is about the samples themselves... the single cycle samples have an offset bug of what seems to be a single sample, making the sample not sound seamless... We were told that this would not be fixed, since you cannot change the samples, but still I feel it's one of the more bizzare bugs, and I do not understand why this was not catched during production, as it's rather obvious when you do sound design with these waveforms
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I tried to find the posts on the other forum, but I cannot find them anymore, so here is what I remember:
If you turn on Tempest, and use USB for sysex and MIDI data in general, everything works fine... i can send sysex RAM sound dumps to the Tempest without any problem.
But if I turn on the Tempest, and use MIDI DIN, it sometimes does not recognise the sysex RAM sound dumps... or rather, it does take in the dump, but sometimes, parameters changed in the dump is not recognized, as if a prior dump is still used. I've been creating a sound editor for RAM dumps, and are sending full dumps every time a parameter is tweaked, and this is how I've spottet this bug... sometimes I tweak a knob in my editor, and the Tempest just do not change accordingly... via USB there is no problem... and it's not because I'm sending whole dumps fast after each other because my editor only send the dump, when a knob is released in the editor, to avoid huge amounts of MIDI data to be sent all the time while turning the editor knobs.
But the bug really start to show itself, if you send any MIDI note-on via USB prior to using MIDI DIN... that will make any incoming sysex dump via MIDI DIN totaly scrambled... the sound name in the display of Tempest is even garbled. This happens EVERY TIME a USB MIDI note-on has been recieved just ONE TIME prior to recieving a sysex dump via MIDI DIN.
So in other words; If you want sysex to work, you are forced to use USB... and that is a problem because DSI does not make multi client drivers for their USB connections, and when people need to access the Tempest from more than one program, this becomes a serious problem.. I always use a sequencer and en editor at the same time, but it's not possible unless you use MIDI DIN with a MIDI interface that have multi client capable drivers... and when MIDI DIN on Tempest does not work reliably with sysex dumps... well... then you have a problem.
I understand that most of DSI synths, you are advised to not use both USB and DIN at the same time at the input side of MIDI, and I can understand, that using both at the same time could maybe lead to problems... but MIDI DIN does not work correctly with Sysex, when it's used even by itself, missing changes in dumps here and there... if that could be fixed, it would be nice.
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The MIDI DIN bug is a bit hard to describe, but it was confirmed by Chris a long time ago, so if you ask him, I'm sure he'll explain it... but in short, if you turn off Tempest, and then back on, and use ONLY the MIDI DIN connection for dumping SysEx (to the current RAM sound), everything works... but if you at any time before that, have used the USB connection, then dumps sent to MIDI DIN thereafter is scrambled. I'll see if I can find my full explanation of how to recreate the bug.
The sample loop points is about the samples themselves... the single cycle samples have an offset bug of what seems to be a single sample, making the sample not sound seamless... We were told that this would not be fixed, since you cannot change the samples, but still I feel it's one of the more bizzare bugs, and I do not understand why this was not catched during production, as it's rather obvious when you do sound design with these waveforms
Thanks, Razmo. The first one I was aware of but wasn't aware that any MIDI message received prior to the MIDI DIN Sysex dump would corrupt the transfer. I'll look into it.
The second one I was not aware of. I'll look into it.
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Hi all,
I’m sorry to report that the Tempest software is still not suitable for a beta release and I’m leaving for a business trip tomorrow that lasts one week. So my best wild guess is that the beta is still a couple of weeks away and I apologize for my overoptimistic 2-week estimate of about 2 weeks ago. I’m trying my best but Tempest’s software seems particularly difficult to predict.
Sorry I don’t have better news,
Roger
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The looped sample issue (sample offset) has been discussed to death on the other forum. I'm surprised it hasn't appeared on bug lists, unless it's not considered a "bug"?
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It's a bug. It's just too late in the product's life cycle to change it. Fixing them will alter user and factory patches and you'd have a whole other population bitching they liked the noisy samples.
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The looped sample issue (sample offset) has been discussed to death on the other forum. I'm surprised it hasn't appeared on bug lists, unless it's not considered a "bug"?
The fact of the matter is, in layman's terms, the chip harboring the samples cannot be reprogrammed; which is why user sample import never happened either, despite DSI's best laid plans and promises. What blewis said above is also true, and has been the company's stance for a long time now; reiterated most recently by 'Robot Heart' at the top of this page... And it's a valid point.
Anyway, the bottom line is, it's never going to happen.
Honestly, I make sounds for a living, and I've never been burdened by the onboard sample selection or the noise associated with some of the digital waveforms; but I tend to work with what's at hand, without any preconceptions. Every sound, whatever its nature, noisy or otherwise, is useful in some context...
At any rate, I'm not making excuses for DSI; indeed they should have caught this anomaly early on. That said, the Tempest is more than capable as a synth regardless, and I've used every one of the onboard samples and waveforms to great effect. And when the task at hand requires a different sample or a cleaner waveform, I simply use a different synth; in the same way that I would never use the crusty filter on the MonoTribe, which is perfect in other contexts, if I were looking for that creamy Moog sound, etc.
Cheers!
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If the chip holding the samples can't be reprogrammed, why not instead make a replacement chip/board that can be user installed? Just brain-storming!
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Hi all,
I've leaving tonight for Sweetwater's Gearfest this Friday and Saturday, so I wanted to post an update before I leave. We've been working hard on the Tempest update and making very good progress. I think we're close but I hesitate to give details or an estimate because the last time I gave an estimate, I was way off. Tempest is very complex inside (9 computers!) so changing one thing tends to ripple through the system. I can say that I think you'll be very pleased with the beta when we post it here, which I hope will be soon, and I kindly thank you for your patience. If you happen to be attending Gearfest, please stop by my booth in the Electronic Music Production tent and say hi.
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Hi all,
We've just posted a beta release containing the current status of bug fixes related to the petition:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,586.msg6783.html#msg6783
The second post in that thread is my detailed explanation of exactly how each of the petition bugs is affected. We haven't fixed everything but I think you'll be pleased at how much was fixed and how much this improves Tempest.
Any help you can give in testing this beta release is very much appreciated. Please post any bug reports to that thread.
Thank you for your patience,
Roger
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Hi all,
We've just posted a beta release containing the current status of bug fixes related to the petition:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,586.msg6783.html#msg6783
The second post in that thread is my detailed explanation of exactly how each of the petition bugs is affected. We haven't fixed everything but I think you'll be pleased at how much was fixed and how much this improves Tempest.
Any help you can give in testing this beta release is very much appreciated. Please post any bug reports to that thread.
Thank you for your patience,
Roger
Great news, Roger! Thanks for your detailed list about what was fixed and not with reasons explaining. Now I'm off to the Tempest giving it a workout.
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Wonderful news **************THANK YOU
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Oops-- in my post above, I ask people to post bug reports to the thread containing the update file and my descriptive post, which was my mistake. Please post bug reports to the "Bug report" thread immediately following it. The original thread is locked so that people won't have to search through tons of pages of bug reports to find the update file or my description. Thanks much.
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Been so busy I missed the update yesterday!!
Going to download the new beta and test it out later tonight. I can't wait to check it out.
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Really enjoying getting right back into the Tempest again after a break..
New OS seems great. minor adjustments and so on hard to define, but the flow is definitely sounding great for me.
Privilege to see Roger Linn gert personally involved, really exciting.. keep it coming !!!