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OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Off Topic => Topic started by: laurentluigi on July 16, 2019, 05:14:54 AM

Title: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: laurentluigi on July 16, 2019, 05:14:54 AM
I know ... Utopia awaits me.....

Who knows...!!!
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Nokki on July 16, 2019, 05:34:49 AM
I think it is almost for sure.

They have confirmed that they would have something for the summer and ot would be nothing like the prophet X.

It has been more than a year since they released a new product.

They are rebranding as sequencial.

Looking forward to this ! :)

Best,
Nokki
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: mildwest on July 16, 2019, 10:54:57 AM
I think it is almost for sure.

They have confirmed that they would have something for the summer and ot would be nothing like the prophet X.

It has been more than a year since they released a new product.

They are rebranding as sequencial.

Looking forward to this ! :)

Best,
Nokki

Me too. Guitars usually rule Summer NAMM with little to no synth stuff, but I believe this is where they launched their eurorack module a few years back and Sequential likes to be different (in a good way).
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Shaw on July 16, 2019, 11:41:59 AM
I live in Nashville... so might be a good reason to go check out Summer NAMM.  I've been threatening my wife with it for years... this might be the time to deliver on past promises.  :)
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Lady Gaia on July 16, 2019, 04:28:01 PM
I would be very pleasantly surprised if we heard anything from this show.  I was under the impression it was likely to be late summer at earliest, but Iím eager for any news we can get.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: OceanMachine on July 16, 2019, 06:37:53 PM
Summer NAMM would then be the perfect time to make an announcement (https://youtu.be/-1P268Z86Ak?t=1191), but we'll just have to wait and see...
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: DMS on July 17, 2019, 07:29:53 AM
 Nice performance Carson
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 17, 2019, 02:27:41 PM
Just have to wait and see how it goes. Although I said I would buy the next Sequential synth sight unseen, unless itís a new Poly Evolver or Wavetables/FM based synth or even a larger VCO based synth, I donít think Iíll have any interest. I really donít think the world needs another mono synth and if INHALT hinting at such an instrument from Sequential has any truth to it, itíll feel like a step backwards, regardless of how good it sounds.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Razmo on July 18, 2019, 07:03:54 AM
Just have to wait and see how it goes. Although I said I would buy the next Sequential synth sight unseen, unless itís a new Poly Evolver or Wavetables/FM based synth or even a larger VCO based synth, I donít think Iíll have any interest. I really donít think the world needs another mono synth and if INHALT hinting at such an instrument from Sequential has any truth to it, itíll feel like a step backwards, regardless of how good it sounds.

With Behringer coming out with a Pro-One clone, it would be a really weird choie if Sequential came out with one as well, at a much more expensive pricepoint... unless they made it polyphonic...
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 18, 2019, 05:17:10 PM
Just have to wait and see how it goes. Although I said I would buy the next Sequential synth sight unseen, unless itís a new Poly Evolver or Wavetables/FM based synth or even a larger VCO based synth, I donít think Iíll have any interest. I really donít think the world needs another mono synth and if INHALT hinting at such an instrument from Sequential has any truth to it, itíll feel like a step backwards, regardless of how good it sounds.

With Behringer coming out with a Pro-One clone, it would be a really weird choie if Sequential came out with one as well, at a much more expensive pricepoint... unless they made it polyphonic...

Which would somewhat defeat the point of a Pro 1. Wouldnít  a Polyphonic Pro 1 essentially just be a Prophet 5 anyway?
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: blewis on July 18, 2019, 06:08:17 PM
I have my hopes up for something amazing. Itís hard work to be amazing once a year though.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 18, 2019, 08:08:44 PM
I still think the announcement and release of the Novation Summit made Sequential change any possible plans of a Prophet 12 successor.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Razmo on July 19, 2019, 02:59:16 AM
Just have to wait and see how it goes. Although I said I would buy the next Sequential synth sight unseen, unless itís a new Poly Evolver or Wavetables/FM based synth or even a larger VCO based synth, I donít think Iíll have any interest. I really donít think the world needs another mono synth and if INHALT hinting at such an instrument from Sequential has any truth to it, itíll feel like a step backwards, regardless of how good it sounds.

With Behringer coming out with a Pro-One clone, it would be a really weird choie if Sequential came out with one as well, at a much more expensive pricepoint... unless they made it polyphonic...

Which would somewhat defeat the point of a Pro 1. Wouldnít  a Polyphonic Pro 1 essentially just be a Prophet 5 anyway?

That depends... I'm fairly certain that if they make a PolyPro, then it would not just be a simple polyphonic Pro1 (Prophet 5)... it would probably have the typical deep Sequential engine of the newer range of synths (like the REV2 for example), probably with added FX and dual timbrality as the others... and if I recall right, the first Pro1's also had SSM filters, not CEM? ... what if they had created the oscillators discrete, but used the SSM filters of the PX? ...

You have to remenber, that Dave use the brand names rather freely... the Pro2 was NOTHING linke a Pro1 successor... he has used the name "Prophet" on so many synths now it's lost it's classification meaning (to me at least)...

I fear, that if something like this comes out, the REV2 will seem stale in comparison... just have to wait and see
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: blewis on July 19, 2019, 04:39:13 AM
I still think the announcement and release of the Novation Summit made Sequential change any possible plans of a Prophet 12 successor.

That doesnít make sense to me. They would have been 3/4 to 7/8 of the way through a design when the Summit was announced. They canít just change plans that deep into the process.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: blewis on July 19, 2019, 04:41:52 AM
I fear, that if something like this comes out, the REV2 will seem stale in comparison... just have to wait and see

It feels like it will be really hard not to have overlap with existing products. Only a VS or some pure FM synth would stand alone. Anything else will nearly overlap by half into another product of theirs .

Actually, another mono would have no overlap. Dang.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 19, 2019, 04:45:08 AM
I still think the announcement and release of the Novation Summit made Sequential change any possible plans of a Prophet 12 successor.

That doesnít make sense to me. They would have been 3/4 to 7/8 of the way through a design when the Summit was announced. They canít just change plans that deep into the process.

Sure they can. Thereís no deadline.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Razmo on July 19, 2019, 05:51:11 AM
I still think the announcement and release of the Novation Summit made Sequential change any possible plans of a Prophet 12 successor.

That doesnít make sense to me. They would have been 3/4 to 7/8 of the way through a design when the Summit was announced. They canít just change plans that deep into the process.

Sure they can. Thereís no deadline.

no.. but stopping production halfway thru would certainly not be cost-free... they may change some specs on what they were currently doing, but honestly, I don't think there is any reason NOT to take on the Summit... thats competition, and pretty normal. Not trying to make a better digital front-end synth that would take on the Summit, would be like giving up...
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Paul Dither on July 19, 2019, 06:05:13 AM
Ö and if I recall right, the first Pro1's also had SSM filters, not CEM?

Nope. The Pro-One came out in 1981, i.e. after the transition to CEM chips. The Prophet-10 (1980) was also only available with Curtis chips. There was just one early Prophet-10 prototype that utilized SSM chips, which was later dismantled and used for spare parts. So apart from the Rev. 1 and Rev. 2 Prophet-5 (roughly 1300 sold instruments) no other commercially available synth by Sequential Circuits featured SSM chips.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: OceanMachine on July 19, 2019, 06:08:09 AM
Pro-One used CEM chips (VCO:CEM3340 & VCF: CEM3320) that the Rev 3 used

I still think the announcement and release of the Novation Summit made Sequential change any possible plans of a Prophet 12 successor.
Quite an assumption.

Sure they can. Thereís no deadline.
Time=money in the real world.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 19, 2019, 05:15:00 PM
In light of all the new synths and synth companies, the question is, What does Dave Smith do better than the others?  What can still be identified as the character of his instruments?  I still think it's possible for Sequential to prevail, even if they no longer seem so unique, due to the competition on all sides.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 19, 2019, 11:04:40 PM
I still think the announcement and release of the Novation Summit made Sequential change any possible plans of a Prophet 12 successor.

That doesnít make sense to me. They would have been 3/4 to 7/8 of the way through a design when the Summit was announced. They canít just change plans that deep into the process.

Sure they can. Thereís no deadline.

no.. but stopping production halfway thru would certainly not be cost-free... they may change some specs on what they were currently doing, but honestly, I don't think there is any reason NOT to take on the Summit... thats competition, and pretty normal. Not trying to make a better digital front-end synth that would take on the Summit, would be like giving up...

Possibly but Dave even said they are working on a bunch of things, maybe they simply decided to switch their focus to another project after the announcement.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 19, 2019, 11:06:28 PM
Maybe we will see my idea for the Pro 4 come to light after all. Seriously though if that happens, that would be two in a row for me.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: blewis on July 20, 2019, 02:01:28 PM
If there was a thing to announce for NAMM it wouldíve been announced already right? So were on a different time table I guess.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: SandyS1 on July 20, 2019, 02:07:58 PM
In light of all the new synths and synth companies, the question is, What does Dave Smith do better than the others?  What can still be identified as the character of his instruments?  I still think it's possible for Sequential to prevail, even if they no longer seem so unique, due to the competition on all sides.

There are a few areas where they seem to be very good: Interface, having a collection of features that function together as an instrument, and pricing above the mass market but under where the boutique sellers are going. Everybody thought the P12, Prophet 6 and OB 6 were expensive, but they turned out well below instruments like the Quantum or the Moog One. And the VCOs were ahead of the poly VCO trend.

So they've done a super-expensive Łber-rompler with stereo analog filters. Something like the Evolver or a successor to the VS is a hole in their legacy, and of course only Waldorf is doing anything beyond were the Wavestation went. And the X/XL is not really like a Prophet 2000, so a true non-workstation hardware sampler is something missing right now. Dave is also a big software guy and has done a lot of work on virtual instruments, and he could bring some of those back in a hardware format. There's something to be said for a hardware VST that will never get behind OS upgrades and has intuitive physical controls.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Paul Dither on July 20, 2019, 03:49:49 PM
In light of all the new synths and synth companies, the question is, What does Dave Smith do better than the others?  What can still be identified as the character of his instruments?  I still think it's possible for Sequential to prevail, even if they no longer seem so unique, due to the competition on all sides.

Generally speaking, I'd say that usefulness has always been a particularly strong aspect of most Sequential instruments, i.e. the perfect balance between features and the ease of use. If Sequential release a new instrument, you can almost always expect a very well laid out synth that's ready to be used immediately, but still deep enough to discover new facets over time. Another point that almost goes hand in hand with this is a strong focus in terms of the synth's engine. Sequential don't typically aim for synths that are supposed to do everything or cover half a dozen of synthesis methods at the same time, which in turn would run counter to their trusted design principles. These are some of the aspects I would describe as objectifiable strengths.

Of course there's much more competition around these days. An analog or hybrid poly synth is no longer a unique selling point all by itself and we probably won't witness the announcement of an instrument anymore that will have the same impact as the Prophet-5 had in 1978 or the DX7 in 1983 to mention just two well-known examples. Innovations still take place, though, and some surprising designs can also be based on a recombination of already familiar features, but with a clever twist.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 20, 2019, 06:00:19 PM
Yes, in other words, Sequential offers a balance of features and price.  It used to provide the upper end in synthesizers, but now it's in the middle.  Plenty of features, but never everything in one instrument; reasonably priced, and yet not cheap.  But can we speak of a DSI/Sequential sound?  I think it used to have a familiar sonic character, but now it's broadened sufficiently to lack such a character. 

I realize nearly everyone wants innovation from synthesizer manufacturers - always something new and groundbreaking.  Let me put in a word for solid, stable, and basic.  Just give me an instrument like the Prophet '08/Rev 2, Prophet 12, or Prophet 6.  Work out the bugs and make it enduring.  Then leave it to the musician to work wonders with it.  That's all I ask - merely a fine musical tool that will be around for years to come.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Razmo on July 20, 2019, 11:23:40 PM
I may be weird, but one of the things that (to me) is an advantage of Sequential instruments is actually something most probably do not even care much about... it's MIDI specifications. It's one of the things that is always well spec'ed on Sequential synths, and organized in a way that even an old program like SoundDiver can have editors made for the synthesizers... it's actually a part of a synth that I study REALLY carefully before I buy a synthesizer... the only exception to this is the TEMPEST which really sucks in it's MIDI specs.

Of course the other aspects of a synth is just as important, but I believe that because Sequential is not packing their synths with extreme loads of features that would complicate the MIDI specification (like TEMPEST again), their synths appeal to me. They know how to make their synths focused, but still flexible enough and with a deep engine.

I'm almost 100% certain, that synths like MOOG ONE and QUANTUM, though very powerful synths, are so complex that it's MIDI specs for SysEx would either not exist, or be so convoluted you would have program a dedicated editor for them in some way... using a universal editor-maker would probably not be feasible because of the complexity, and as long as Sequential do not create their own editors, this is crucial to me. So I hope Sequential will continue this trend for years to come.

When it comes to new synths, I'm not really sure about what I really want to see anymore... aside from the obvious better MIDI spec'ed TEMPEST that I'd certainly like to see, I guess that there are currently enough options if you just want some deep polysynths, analog or hybrid... a new synth will almost always give you something others do not have, but many will (if their engine is deep enough) overlap so much you could do most with all of them... you really do not need 20 different axes to chop a tree if you need to be honest about it would you?

When the big polysynths with deep engines have to compete, I feel they all do the basics so well, that this is not really a selling point anymore, something else is needed, and to me what is needed is CHARACTER (in the audio itself), to make them more interesting, because let's face it; you REALLY do not need more synths do you? ... you can make music FINE without another synth, and I think that's what makes it hard to come up with yet new and innovative stuff really because they need to convince us, that we NEED a new synth, even though we really do not.

But we are not just creators of music and sounds... we're also collectors of synths, and that's what drives us to get more... and more... and more... but at the same time, we want to justify the purchases, so we keep on wanting new features, new character, more flexible engines etc. etc... Maybe it's just time to think about what we NEED, instead of what we WANT?

I'm not talking about stopping being innovative, and create synthesizers, but maybe everything is just happening too fast, and more time should be spend perfecting what we already have instead... many are buying new synths even before they have utilized their latest purchase to their max... like a row of "half eaten pies" in a line behind you... typical neo-liberal consumerism at it's ugliest.

Anyway... we will never be making any music, if we constantly focus on all the innovative stuff that has not been made, and that we do not have... but I guess that's a human trait... always longing for what we do not have, instead of using what we DO have.

End of rant...
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Paul Dither on July 21, 2019, 04:19:21 AM
Yes, in other words, Sequential offers a balance of features and price.  It used to provide the upper end in synthesizers, but now it's in the middle.  Plenty of features, but never everything in one instrument; reasonably priced, and yet not cheap.  But can we speak of a DSI/Sequential sound?  I think it used to have a familiar sonic character, but now it's broadened sufficiently to lack such a character.

But all instruments have their own character. In the early days the Evolver sounded different from the Prophet '08 and then you had the Prophet X, the Rev2, the Prophet-6, the OB-6, the Tempest, the Prophet 12, and the Pro 2, all with their unique sonic characteristics. Sure, the palette has broadened, but I wouldn't say that there is a lack of character due to that. Whether the sonic characteristics of each instrument speak to you is of course a different matter, which is why I left the sound aside in my post above, as it's such a subjective thing. Of course we can break down why certain synths sound the way they do in technical terms, but that's usually not how we assess this topic when we play or program these instruments.

I realize nearly everyone wants innovation from synthesizer manufacturers - always something new and groundbreaking.  Let me put in a word for solid, stable, and basic.  Just give me an instrument like the Prophet '08/Rev 2, Prophet 12, or Prophet 6.  Work out the bugs and make it enduring.  Then leave it to the musician to work wonders with it.  That's all I ask - merely a fine musical tool that will be around for years to come.

I'm not even so sure that nearly everyone wants innovation or groundbreaking designs all the time. Sure, there's a lot of theorizing talk about this in forums, but if nearly everyone just wanted innovation, almost no one would use hardware synths any longer, as they're arguably extremely limited when compared to their virtual cousins that only cost a fraction of hardware. Instead, we saw an enormous desire for not only hardware synths, but also analog or hybrid designs. By now, some people seem to get bored more and more with analog only designs, so we can observe a shift towards more hybrid or digital designs in both the Eurorack scene as well as the classic hardware synth world.

The Prophet '08/Rev2, Prophet 12, and Prophet-6 have all been around for years. The Prophet '08/Rev2 engine has been out for almost twelve years by now (!), the Prophet 12 production ran for roughly five and a half years, and the Prophet-6 is now in its fourth year and still very popular. By comparison, the DX7 mk 1 was produced for four years, the Korg M1 for six years, and the Prophet-5 also for six years. So the time the later Sequential instruments have been in production is not particularly short when you compare it to the production lifecycle of the polyphonic top sellers in synthesizer history.

What has to be taken into account, though, is the business reality that you have to remind everyone that you're still existing each and every year by announcing a new product. I don't think this is a particular burden for Sequential, as they've mentioned on numerous occasions that they still have plenty of ideas for future designs.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Paul Dither on July 21, 2019, 04:42:10 AM
I'm almost 100% certain, that synths like MOOG ONE and QUANTUM, though very powerful synths, are so complex that it's MIDI specs for SysEx would either not exist, or be so convoluted you would have program a dedicated editor for them in some way... using a universal editor-maker would probably not be feasible because of the complexity

I think the One and the Quantum have not really been conceptualized to be used with an editor. The goal behind these instruments was to use them as stand-alone devices.

I'm not talking about stopping being innovative, and create synthesizers, but maybe everything is just happening too fast, and more time should be spend perfecting what we already have instead... many are buying new synths even before they have utilized their latest purchase to their max... like a row of "half eaten pies" in a line behind you... typical neo-liberal consumerism at it's ugliest.

It all goes back to the agile method for production design, which arose from the world of software development in the 1990s. The method was implemented to deal with a shortage of software products around a time when powerful PCs were made available to any household. There was a market to fill, but there were not enough products around to take advantage of that. So a method was needed to get new software out as fast as possible and deal with improvements or bug fixes later. Today, the method is applied to almost every product and service.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Razmo on July 21, 2019, 07:45:45 AM
I'm almost 100% certain, that synths like MOOG ONE and QUANTUM, though very powerful synths, are so complex that it's MIDI specs for SysEx would either not exist, or be so convoluted you would have program a dedicated editor for them in some way... using a universal editor-maker would probably not be feasible because of the complexity

I think the One and the Quantum have not really been conceptualized to be used with an editor. The goal behind these instruments was to use them as stand-alone devices.

I'm not talking about stopping being innovative, and create synthesizers, but maybe everything is just happening too fast, and more time should be spend perfecting what we already have instead... many are buying new synths even before they have utilized their latest purchase to their max... like a row of "half eaten pies" in a line behind you... typical neo-liberal consumerism at it's ugliest.

It all goes back to the agile method for production design, which arose from the world of software development in the 1990s. The method was implemented to deal with a shortage of software products around a time when powerful PCs were made available to any household. There was a market to fill, but there were not enough products around to take advantage of that. So a method was needed to get new software out as fast as possible and deal with improvements or bug fixes later. Today, the method is applied to almost every product and service.

And any other synth from Sequential with knobby interfaces was not meant to be used standalone then?...
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Paul Dither on July 21, 2019, 08:00:19 AM
And any other synth from Sequential with knobby interfaces was not meant to be used standalone then?...

Sure. But as you said they are easier to integrate when it comes to working with editors. And in the case of the Quantum and the One, developers particularly pointed out that these instruments have been build to be used without too much computer interference (other than what you would typically use when recording to a DAW). Moog's Amos Gaynes even pointed out that dealing with SysEx is awful and ridiculous in this day and age or something along these lines. The Quantum was also developed in a way that makes the use of an additional computer unnecessary beyond editor-related aspects. As you indicated, it would be an awful lot of work to develop editors for these two instruments, particularly because the necessary information is not documented detailed enough.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 21, 2019, 08:12:03 AM
But we are not just creators of music and sounds... we're also collectors of synths, and that's what drives us to get more... and more... and more... but at the same time, we want to justify the purchases, so we keep on wanting new features, new character, more flexible engines etc. etc... Maybe it's just time to think about what we NEED, instead of what we WANT?

This is where I put on the brakes.  I don't want one more musical instrument or device than I need, and I can work with one less.  I got the gear bite when I first got back into this field in the significant year of '08, but I've surgically eliminated the GAS problem.  For me, it is all about the music, and it comes accompanied with the desire to always use a minimal amount of equipment. 
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 21, 2019, 08:15:58 AM
Yes, in other words, Sequential offers a balance of features and price.  It used to provide the upper end in synthesizers, but now it's in the middle.  Plenty of features, but never everything in one instrument; reasonably priced, and yet not cheap.  But can we speak of a DSI/Sequential sound?  I think it used to have a familiar sonic character, but now it's broadened sufficiently to lack such a character.

But all instruments have their own character. In the early days the Evolver sounded different from the Prophet '08 and then you had the Prophet X, the Rev2, the Prophet-6, the OB-6, the Tempest, the Prophet 12, and the Pro 2, all with their unique sonic characteristics. Sure, the palette has broadened, but I wouldn't say that there is a lack of character due to that. Whether the sonic characteristics of each instrument speak to you is of course a different matter, which is why I left the sound aside in my post above, as it's such a subjective thing. Of course we can break down why certain synths sound the way they do in technical terms, but that's usually not how we assess this topic when we play or program these instruments.

The Evolver undoubtedly has a distinctive sonic character, as does the Prophet '08, but these two instruments are also identifiable to my ears as closely related.  The analog side of the former does sound close to the latter.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Razmo on July 21, 2019, 08:45:28 AM
And any other synth from Sequential with knobby interfaces was not meant to be used standalone then?...

Sure. But as you said they are easier to integrate when it comes to working with editors. And in the case of the Quantum and the One, developers particularly pointed out that these instruments have been build to be used without too much computer interference (other than what you would typically use when recording to a DAW). Moog's Amos Gaynes even pointed out that dealing with SysEx is awful and ridiculous in this day and age or something along these lines. The Quantum was also developed in a way that makes the use of an additional computer unnecessary beyond editor-related aspects. As you indicated, it would be an awful lot of work to develop editors for these two instruments, particularly because the necessary information is not documented detailed enough.

In my view, it's only redundant using SysEx if you have a large enough touchscreen on the device itself... and if the interface on them are well and logically laid out, and actually I don't find that many synths have this... it's beginning to show up on more and more synthesizers these days, but otherwise they were reserved for big workstations more or less.

If companies made big screens like on the QUANTUM or ONE, then I'd have no problem with it, but the usual small OLED displays on Sequential products simply will not meet my needs of a large screen for editing sounds when the engine is so complicated that it's impossible to make a one-knob-per-function UI.

Another thing is, that even if you have a large screen on a synth, if the editor on it is not well implemented, then you lock your synth to this bad design... if you make a full MIDI spec, then anyone who are unsatisfied with the way the on-device screen works, may create their own editor... this will always be a more flexible system, than limiting the user to the screen interface you designed for the synth... people have different needs, and there will always be users who want to do something differently.

This is why I like that Sequential at least still make decent SysEx implementation on their instruments.

I already have one synth with it's own screen (my V-Synth GT), and I would not want an editor for that one, because it's very well done on this synth, but even if I did not like it, the V-Synth, despite being very very deep, do have a full MIDI SysEx spec... i just do not happen to need it for this particular instrument.

There is one problem with on-device screens though... if you have many of these you will have to constantly move around to sit in front of the devices, which to me would be a problem... I really like to have my editors on ONE big screen... so I certainly would want to see editors made for ALL synths being made... i really think we live in a time, where this is not too much to ask for... we're not all living on stage with our studios.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 21, 2019, 09:01:32 AM
I realize nearly everyone wants innovation from synthesizer manufacturers - always something new and groundbreaking.  Let me put in a word for solid, stable, and basic.  Just give me an instrument like the Prophet '08/Rev 2, Prophet 12, or Prophet 6.  Work out the bugs and make it enduring.  Then leave it to the musician to work wonders with it.  That's all I ask - merely a fine musical tool that will be around for years to come.

I'm not even so sure that nearly everyone wants innovation or groundbreaking designs all the time.

Yes, you're right, which is why I added the word "nearly."  Having followed the forum discussions for years (like yourself, Paul), it just seems like too many people have expectations or demands that require Sequential to jump through the innovative hoop with each new instrument.  The new one always has to be an unforeseen masterpiece.  That's unrealistic and it sensationalizes the field.  I wish that Sequential would use its consolidated brains to create synthesizers for the long haul, those that would not pass in eight years like a fashion or expression.  I'm thinking of the Prophet 12 as I type this.  Will it even be replaced, or will it be forgotten and its place taken merely by another innovation, as happened with the Poly Evolver Keyboard?  And I would say the same about the Pro 2. 
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Paul Dither on July 21, 2019, 09:06:15 AM
If companies made big screens like on the QUANTUM or ONE, then I'd have no problem with it, but the usual small OLED displays on Sequential products simply will not meet my needs of a large screen for editing sounds when the engine is so complicated that it's impossible to make a one-knob-per-function UI.

The One and the Quantum are very much their own computers already. Sequential doesn't follow this design paradigm which would also involve menu diving. The OLED displays they're using are enough for the purpose of the instruments so far and a menu structure that always follows a flat navigation hierarchy without any 'diving' being involved, as you only have to toggle between tabs.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Paul Dither on July 21, 2019, 09:13:35 AM
The Evolver undoubtedly has a distinctive sonic character, as does the Prophet '08, but these two instruments are also identifiable to my ears as closely related.  The analog side of the former does sound close to the latter.

That's true. I just meant to say that the other Sequential instruments have a distinctive character as well, even if they sound different from the Evolver and Prophet '08 which is their raison d'Ítre. The latest addition to the family, the Prophet X, does have a very strong sonic character even though one might think it's more like a chameleon due to the samples that can be changed according to anyone's needs. But the filter certainly gives it a special sheen.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Paul Dither on July 21, 2019, 09:53:22 AM
Having followed the forum discussions for years (like yourself, Paul), it just seems like too many people have expectations or demands that require Sequential to jump through the innovative hoop with each new instrument.  The new one always has to be an unforeseen masterpiece.  That's unrealistic and it sensationalizes the field.

Yes, I totally agree. Plus: it's not like innovations didn't take place during the past few years. A lot of Sequential's instruments have been streamlined in terms of commands (how to assign mod sources and destinations, for example) and the overall workflow. It's just that those were rather 'quiet' improvements.

I wish that Sequential would use its consolidated brains to create synthesizers for the long haul, those that would not pass in eight years like a fashion or expression.  I'm thinking of the Prophet 12 as I type this.  Will it even be replaced, or will it be forgotten and its place taken merely by another innovation, as happened with the Poly Evolver Keyboard?  And I would say the same about the Pro 2.

Like I said above: There's also always a business side to all that. I don't know how well the Prophet 12, the Poly Evolver, or the Pro 2 sold in comparison to the Prophet '08/Rev2, the Prophet-6, and OB-6. When it comes to the one I'm most familiar with of all these, namely the Pro 2, I think that it was largely underappreciated for what it is actually capable of, as I still can't think of a more powerful mono synth (many Pro 2 owners seem to be in agreement about that). Maybe it was the craze about all things analog only at its time of release that didn't put it on more people's radars. Maybe it was because most people rather wanted a Pro-One reissue. It certainly didn't get any bad reviews as far as I know. It has only been over the past 12 months that I saw people becoming interested in it again or users writing about it. There's certainly a parallel to how the Poly Evolver was received.

Eight years, however, are a long time in the industry and many instruments don't ever make it that long as far as their production lifecycle goes. There are some notable exceptions, but they are few.

Whether the Prophet 12 or the Pro 2 will be officially replaced by related successors is an open question. I'd say it's possible, but the competition is much stiffer now than it was around the time those were released. The Summit/Peak, the Quantum, the Prologue, and the Super 6 are amongst the synths any possible successor would have to compete with immediately. That alone doesn't make it more or less unlikely, though, as all of the named products are based on very different approaches.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: OceanMachine on July 21, 2019, 09:59:19 AM
What most aficionados associate DSI with is the Curtis filter, which also seems to be the major point of contempt as well. I used to think that complaint was overblown, but having owned a lot of the Curtis line-up (Evolver, Tempest, Prophet 12, REV2) and a lot of the non-Curtis line up (OB-6 & P6), I can say without a doubt the move to other filters is welcome. Sequential is the only company that constantly releases interesting products imo. At the end of the day, it's not about a distinct (limited) sound, but their approach that's still very much their own and can't be replicated by others. Thus having very different sounding instruments, yet all with the Sequential philosophy is much better not only from a business standpoint, but for having an expanded repertoire as well. Nor is it practical to say (If I had to guess, probably due to GAS and a limited income) they should never change their line-up. Such stagnation would inevitably lead to bankruptcy. Sequential has the sales numbers info and they know when a product is beyond its sales potential.

The only thing I wish is that there was a little more effort put towards major OS updates, which would also extend the public interest in the products. Releasing a synth yearly for such a small company severely limits their resources to do so.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Razmo on July 21, 2019, 01:08:30 PM
If companies made big screens like on the QUANTUM or ONE, then I'd have no problem with it, but the usual small OLED displays on Sequential products simply will not meet my needs of a large screen for editing sounds when the engine is so complicated that it's impossible to make a one-knob-per-function UI.

The One and the Quantum are very much their own computers already. Sequential doesn't follow this design paradigm which would also involve menu diving. The OLED displays they're using are enough for the purpose of the instruments so far and a menu structure that always follows a flat navigation hierarchy without any 'diving' being involved, as you only have to toggle between tabs.

If the SysEx is adequate... then yes... then those small displays are enough for what their synths does, but if not, then by no means would it be enough for me... I seriously hate programming the REV2 from the front panel because of the layer switching problem where all controls no longer match... what is "enough" for one, may not be for others.

In fact, the only Sequential synth I'd be satisfied with, if it had no SysEx is the OB-6 and P6... simply because they sport a true one-knob-per-function approach...
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 23, 2019, 03:46:15 PM
Having followed the forum discussions for years (like yourself, Paul), it just seems like too many people have expectations or demands that require Sequential to jump through the innovative hoop with each new instrument.  The new one always has to be an unforeseen masterpiece.  That's unrealistic and it sensationalizes the field.

Yes, I totally agree. Plus: it's not like innovations didn't take place during the past few years. A lot of Sequential's instruments have been streamlined in terms of commands (how to assign mod sources and destinations, for example) and the overall workflow. It's just that those were rather 'quiet' improvements.

I wish that Sequential would use its consolidated brains to create synthesizers for the long haul, those that would not pass in eight years like a fashion or expression.  I'm thinking of the Prophet 12 as I type this.  Will it even be replaced, or will it be forgotten and its place taken merely by another innovation, as happened with the Poly Evolver Keyboard?  And I would say the same about the Pro 2.

Like I said above: There's also always a business side to all that. I don't know how well the Prophet 12, the Poly Evolver, or the Pro 2 sold in comparison to the Prophet '08/Rev2, the Prophet-6, and OB-6. When it comes to the one I'm most familiar with of all these, namely the Pro 2, I think that it was largely underappreciated for what it is actually capable of, as I still can't think of a more powerful mono synth (many Pro 2 owners seem to be in agreement about that). Maybe it was the craze about all things analog only at its time of release that didn't put it on more people's radars. Maybe it was because most people rather wanted a Pro-One reissue. It certainly didn't get any bad reviews as far as I know. It has only been over the past 12 months that I saw people becoming interested in it again or users writing about it. There's certainly a parallel to how the Poly Evolver was received.

Eight years, however, are a long time in the industry and many instruments don't ever make it that long as far as their production lifecycle goes. There are some notable exceptions, but they are few.

Whether the Prophet 12 or the Pro 2 will be officially replaced by related successors is an open question. I'd say it's possible, but the competition is much stiffer now than it was around the time those were released. The Summit/Peak, the Quantum, the Prologue, and the Super 6 are amongst the synths any possible successor would have to compete with immediately. That alone doesn't make it more or less unlikely, though, as all of the named products are based on very different approaches.

Agreed, I think Sequential is on the right path of just doing their own thing and making whatever synth interests them rather than whatís popular. I just feel a mono synth would be a leap backwards for them at this point. Even Moog has branched out into polyphonic and paraphonic synths after years of mono synth after mono synth.

As much as I hate to say it, FM and Wavetables are quite common now so a Prophet VS/Prophet 12 successor is going to have to bring something else to the table for people to really turn their heads.

What can Sequential bring to the synth game that would be different? MPE? Multitimbrality (perhaps something simply like with each oscillator having its own filter, amp, effect etc)

I mean I really donít know what else their is to do. Analog VCO and DCOs are both covered, drum machine has been done, sampler just came out...the only thing missing from their poly synth lineup is a wavetables/fm based synth...but Novation and others already have that market covered...so now what?
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 23, 2019, 03:53:13 PM
Wait....what if....Sequential isnít bringing out a new synth....but Oberheim is.

What if Dave is having Sequential take a break to help Tom get his SonOf4Voice and Two Voice Pro synths into production with more consistent distribution under the original ďOberheimĒ banner? I know Sequential is a smaller operation but could they conceivably alternate productions each year from brand to brand? Perhaps their DSI Modules would be replaced with Tomís SEM-X Eurorack Modules? Perhaps SonOf4Voice release this year, Tempest-X released next year? Etc
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: OceanMachine on July 23, 2019, 04:07:47 PM
What if ... what if. I suppose if you throw enough things against the wall something will stick. Like throwing a common X at the end of a popular name. Also, no one has done a knobby 6 or 8 op FM synth that I'm aware of. 

I saw someone mention a P12 rev 2 with SEM filters, which is exactly what I'd be in the market for. Would preorder immediately.



Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 23, 2019, 04:12:21 PM
What if ... what if. I suppose if you throw enough things against the wall something will stick. Like throwing a common X at the end of a popular name. Also, no one has done a knobby 6 or 8 op FM synth that I'm aware of. 

I saw someone mention a P12 rev 2 with SEM filters, which is exactly what I'd be in the market for. Would preorder immediately.

The reason why I used Tempest X is because Dave said it would be great to see what the Prophet X type technology can do in a drum machine.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Razmo on July 24, 2019, 12:31:34 AM
Having followed the forum discussions for years (like yourself, Paul), it just seems like too many people have expectations or demands that require Sequential to jump through the innovative hoop with each new instrument.  The new one always has to be an unforeseen masterpiece.  That's unrealistic and it sensationalizes the field.

Yes, I totally agree. Plus: it's not like innovations didn't take place during the past few years. A lot of Sequential's instruments have been streamlined in terms of commands (how to assign mod sources and destinations, for example) and the overall workflow. It's just that those were rather 'quiet' improvements.

I wish that Sequential would use its consolidated brains to create synthesizers for the long haul, those that would not pass in eight years like a fashion or expression.  I'm thinking of the Prophet 12 as I type this.  Will it even be replaced, or will it be forgotten and its place taken merely by another innovation, as happened with the Poly Evolver Keyboard?  And I would say the same about the Pro 2.

Like I said above: There's also always a business side to all that. I don't know how well the Prophet 12, the Poly Evolver, or the Pro 2 sold in comparison to the Prophet '08/Rev2, the Prophet-6, and OB-6. When it comes to the one I'm most familiar with of all these, namely the Pro 2, I think that it was largely underappreciated for what it is actually capable of, as I still can't think of a more powerful mono synth (many Pro 2 owners seem to be in agreement about that). Maybe it was the craze about all things analog only at its time of release that didn't put it on more people's radars. Maybe it was because most people rather wanted a Pro-One reissue. It certainly didn't get any bad reviews as far as I know. It has only been over the past 12 months that I saw people becoming interested in it again or users writing about it. There's certainly a parallel to how the Poly Evolver was received.

Eight years, however, are a long time in the industry and many instruments don't ever make it that long as far as their production lifecycle goes. There are some notable exceptions, but they are few.

Whether the Prophet 12 or the Pro 2 will be officially replaced by related successors is an open question. I'd say it's possible, but the competition is much stiffer now than it was around the time those were released. The Summit/Peak, the Quantum, the Prologue, and the Super 6 are amongst the synths any possible successor would have to compete with immediately. That alone doesn't make it more or less unlikely, though, as all of the named products are based on very different approaches.

Agreed, I think Sequential is on the right path of just doing their own thing and making whatever synth interests them rather than whatís popular. I just feel a mono synth would be a leap backwards for them at this point. Even Moog has branched out into polyphonic and paraphonic synths after years of mono synth after mono synth.

As much as I hate to say it, FM and Wavetables are quite common now so a Prophet VS/Prophet 12 successor is going to have to bring something else to the table for people to really turn their heads.

What can Sequential bring to the synth game that would be different? MPE? Multitimbrality (perhaps something simply like with each oscillator having its own filter, amp, effect etc)

I mean I really donít know what else their is to do. Analog VCO and DCOs are both covered, drum machine has been done, sampler just came out...the only thing missing from their poly synth lineup is a wavetables/fm based synth...but Novation and others already have that market covered...so now what?

I do not see a problem in Sequential doing a VS or Wavetable synth... they have to compete too, not just create something new... doing new stuff is becoming harder and harder, so many "innovations" is more advanced versions of older ideas too. If they did a VS or Wavetabel synth they would just have to add enough bells and whistles for it to compete... and bells and whistles seem to be Dave's strength  ;D

I mean... what do people want right now, if it's to be "innovative"? ... many say that they have to do something inovative, but I do not see that many innovative suggestions at what that would be... also, how many ways can you be innovative, when you constantly have to do the Oscillator->Filter->Amplifier->Effects thing!? --- all the "innovativeness" we see these days are just different constellations of this same and overused way of creating synthesizers... the only thing they can really do is put extra "modules" between these, and swap the routings about and increase the modulation engine flexibility.

In the end, I do not think that Dave is thinking much about what's already on the market... he gets an idea in his "underground cave", and then he creates what he feels for... that's the best way to be innovative... if you always try to be like all the rest, you'll probably fail, and the end result will lack your soul in it... just let him do what he likes and do best, I'm sure it'll be something interresting, even if it won't be anything any of you want right now.

That's what I like here... he's trying to satisfy his own ideas, NOT the users... he may be inspired by what users want, but I'm perfectly sure, that even if that's the case, it will come out with twists of his own that is nothing like what you thought anyway.

That's why I've really stopped hoping for this and that... I'm just waiting and then I'll see what comes :)
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Mr.Dezent on July 24, 2019, 03:57:18 AM
FM Synth with 2 VCO`s sitting at its core accompanied by some modulators and a duo or polyphonic Sequencer, no Effects, no matrix aside from the oscillator assignment. A simple yet effective sonic tool with a reduced Form Factor.

To me it feels like Sequential is only realeasing Flagships.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Nokki on July 24, 2019, 05:59:09 AM
Just give us the Tempest X or call it Drumtaks MkII or whatever...
A digital Tempest with the Prophet X sample engine would be huge !!
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 24, 2019, 09:24:45 AM
I do not see a problem in Sequential doing a VS or Wavetable synth... they have to compete too, not just create something new... doing new stuff is becoming harder and harder, so many "innovations" is more advanced versions of older ideas too. If they did a VS or Wavetabel synth they would just have to add enough bells and whistles for it to compete... and bells and whistles seem to be Dave's strength  ;D

I mean... what do people want right now, if it's to be "innovative"? ... many say that they have to do something inovative, but I do not see that many innovative suggestions at what that would be... also, how many ways can you be innovative, when you constantly have to do the Oscillator->Filter->Amplifier->Effects thing!? --- all the "innovativeness" we see these days are just different constellations of this same and overused way of creating synthesizers... the only thing they can really do is put extra "modules" between these, and swap the routings about and increase the modulation engine flexibility.

In the end, I do not think that Dave is thinking much about what's already on the market... he gets an idea in his "underground cave", and then he creates what he feels for... that's the best way to be innovative... if you always try to be like all the rest, you'll probably fail, and the end result will lack your soul in it... just let him do what he likes and do best, I'm sure it'll be something interresting, even if it won't be anything any of you want right now.

That's what I like here... he's trying to satisfy his own ideas, NOT the users... he may be inspired by what users want, but I'm perfectly sure, that even if that's the case, it will come out with twists of his own that is nothing like what you thought anyway.

That's why I've really stopped hoping for this and that... I'm just waiting and then I'll see what comes :

I actually agree with what you've said.  "Innovation" in this case seems to come down to doing things differently from the competitors, so as to be distinctive from them.  It doesn't necessarily mean "better than" the others. 

I get the business aspect; that's just too obvious to mention.  But from my perspective, a good instrument will always remain a good instrument, even as other more "innovative" instruments come to market.  So, I can't get too excited about the big question: What new instrument will Sequential produce next?  I'm more interested in the question, How long will the old instruments be in production?  Rather than excitement, give me stability.

I'm still wondering if Sequential will ever produce that behemoth of a synthesizer that I've dreamed of for a decade - not innovative, but typically DSI-esque and massive.  The Poly Evolver Keyboard came to closest, but it's not the sort of instrument you can easily build up, as you can a Prophet '08/Rev2 with their module versions.  The Prophet 12 was second to the PEK on this scale, but it really wasn't around for long.  This is the difficulty with such an approach - it takes years to accumulate keyboard and module versions, and then the instrument is suddenly discontinued before the project is finished. 
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 24, 2019, 02:42:52 PM
It would be cool to take the idea of the dozen oscillator types in the John Bowen Solaris (digital emulations of Moog, Prophet, Oberheim saw, triangle, square waves, all the Prophet VS waves and over 100 wavetables licensed from Waldorf) but with the dual SEM and SSM analog filters from the Pro2 and dual effects.

That might be a bit too similar to the Prophet X with multiple screens but still...id love to see Dave Smith and John Bowen do something together again.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: DaveP6guy on July 25, 2019, 01:19:17 PM
Having followed the forum discussions for years (like yourself, Paul), it just seems like too many people have expectations or demands that require Sequential to jump through the innovative hoop with each new instrument.  The new one always has to be an unforeseen masterpiece.  That's unrealistic and it sensationalizes the field.

Yes, I totally agree. Plus: it's not like innovations didn't take place during the past few years. A lot of Sequential's instruments have been streamlined in terms of commands (how to assign mod sources and destinations, for example) and the overall workflow. It's just that those were rather 'quiet' improvements.

I wish that Sequential would use its consolidated brains to create synthesizers for the long haul, those that would not pass in eight years like a fashion or expression.  I'm thinking of the Prophet 12 as I type this.  Will it even be replaced, or will it be forgotten and its place taken merely by another innovation, as happened with the Poly Evolver Keyboard?  And I would say the same about the Pro 2.

Like I said above: There's also always a business side to all that. I don't know how well the Prophet 12, the Poly Evolver, or the Pro 2 sold in comparison to the Prophet '08/Rev2, the Prophet-6, and OB-6. When it comes to the one I'm most familiar with of all these, namely the Pro 2, I think that it was largely underappreciated for what it is actually capable of, as I still can't think of a more powerful mono synth (many Pro 2 owners seem to be in agreement about that). Maybe it was the craze about all things analog only at its time of release that didn't put it on more people's radars. Maybe it was because most people rather wanted a Pro-One reissue. It certainly didn't get any bad reviews as far as I know. It has only been over the past 12 months that I saw people becoming interested in it again or users writing about it. There's certainly a parallel to how the Poly Evolver was received.

Eight years, however, are a long time in the industry and many instruments don't ever make it that long as far as their production lifecycle goes. There are some notable exceptions, but they are few.

Whether the Prophet 12 or the Pro 2 will be officially replaced by related successors is an open question. I'd say it's possible, but the competition is much stiffer now than it was around the time those were released. The Summit/Peak, the Quantum, the Prologue, and the Super 6 are amongst the synths any possible successor would have to compete with immediately. That alone doesn't make it more or less unlikely, though, as all of the named products are based on very different approaches.
A Pro-One-X maybe. One voice out of Prophet-6. Or a Pro-Three? Who knows?  :D
I wonder if the technical challenges of VCO synths are worth it for a small company.
Dave seems to have gone to town on the new Prophet-X and I'm kind of surprised thre Prophet-12 and especially the Pro-2 have been discontined (apart from the last few of the special white Prophet-12s with SEQUENTIAL on the front - an Taylor Swift on the back?).
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: LoboLives on July 25, 2019, 06:04:58 PM
Having followed the forum discussions for years (like yourself, Paul), it just seems like too many people have expectations or demands that require Sequential to jump through the innovative hoop with each new instrument.  The new one always has to be an unforeseen masterpiece.  That's unrealistic and it sensationalizes the field.

Yes, I totally agree. Plus: it's not like innovations didn't take place during the past few years. A lot of Sequential's instruments have been streamlined in terms of commands (how to assign mod sources and destinations, for example) and the overall workflow. It's just that those were rather 'quiet' improvements.

I wish that Sequential would use its consolidated brains to create synthesizers for the long haul, those that would not pass in eight years like a fashion or expression.  I'm thinking of the Prophet 12 as I type this.  Will it even be replaced, or will it be forgotten and its place taken merely by another innovation, as happened with the Poly Evolver Keyboard?  And I would say the same about the Pro 2.

Like I said above: There's also always a business side to all that. I don't know how well the Prophet 12, the Poly Evolver, or the Pro 2 sold in comparison to the Prophet '08/Rev2, the Prophet-6, and OB-6. When it comes to the one I'm most familiar with of all these, namely the Pro 2, I think that it was largely underappreciated for what it is actually capable of, as I still can't think of a more powerful mono synth (many Pro 2 owners seem to be in agreement about that). Maybe it was the craze about all things analog only at its time of release that didn't put it on more people's radars. Maybe it was because most people rather wanted a Pro-One reissue. It certainly didn't get any bad reviews as far as I know. It has only been over the past 12 months that I saw people becoming interested in it again or users writing about it. There's certainly a parallel to how the Poly Evolver was received.

Eight years, however, are a long time in the industry and many instruments don't ever make it that long as far as their production lifecycle goes. There are some notable exceptions, but they are few.

Whether the Prophet 12 or the Pro 2 will be officially replaced by related successors is an open question. I'd say it's possible, but the competition is much stiffer now than it was around the time those were released. The Summit/Peak, the Quantum, the Prologue, and the Super 6 are amongst the synths any possible successor would have to compete with immediately. That alone doesn't make it more or less unlikely, though, as all of the named products are based on very different approaches.
A Pro-One-X maybe. One voice out of Prophet-6. Or a Pro-Three? Who knows?  :D
I wonder if the technical challenges of VCO synths are worth it for a small company.
Dave seems to have gone to town on the new Prophet-X and I'm kind of surprised thre Prophet-12 and especially the Pro-2 have been discontined (apart from the last few of the special white Prophet-12s with SEQUENTIAL on the front - an Taylor Swift on the back?).

I donít know about the VCO thing. Dave spent a lot of research and time developing more VCO stability for the P6. It was a big deal for him to do it after years of saying he never would. I still think a VCO based synth in style of a Prophet T8 or Prophet 10 would be welcomed. Even if it doesnít have the insane amounts of memory the Moog One does, if its even half of the Moog Oneís price, I still think people would have a lot of interest in it. I know I would. I still like the idea of an optional lower tier much like how Hammond offer the lower manual keyboard as a separate add on option for their digital organs....it would be cool to do the same but for a VCO based synth where you could play ďLayerBĒ from a second keyboard that sits on a base underneath your main synth. Prophet 20...allowing two completely independent 10 voice VCO poly synths that you can play together. Iíd buy that in a heartbeat. 

The Prophet 12 was missing a few things that are sort of commonplace now on Sequential synths(digital effects, sequencer, etc) so I could see why Dave felt it was ďold newsĒ.
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Razmo on July 29, 2019, 01:04:14 AM
I do not see a problem in Sequential doing a VS or Wavetable synth... they have to compete too, not just create something new... doing new stuff is becoming harder and harder, so many "innovations" is more advanced versions of older ideas too. If they did a VS or Wavetabel synth they would just have to add enough bells and whistles for it to compete... and bells and whistles seem to be Dave's strength  ;D

I mean... what do people want right now, if it's to be "innovative"? ... many say that they have to do something inovative, but I do not see that many innovative suggestions at what that would be... also, how many ways can you be innovative, when you constantly have to do the Oscillator->Filter->Amplifier->Effects thing!? --- all the "innovativeness" we see these days are just different constellations of this same and overused way of creating synthesizers... the only thing they can really do is put extra "modules" between these, and swap the routings about and increase the modulation engine flexibility.

In the end, I do not think that Dave is thinking much about what's already on the market... he gets an idea in his "underground cave", and then he creates what he feels for... that's the best way to be innovative... if you always try to be like all the rest, you'll probably fail, and the end result will lack your soul in it... just let him do what he likes and do best, I'm sure it'll be something interresting, even if it won't be anything any of you want right now.

That's what I like here... he's trying to satisfy his own ideas, NOT the users... he may be inspired by what users want, but I'm perfectly sure, that even if that's the case, it will come out with twists of his own that is nothing like what you thought anyway.

That's why I've really stopped hoping for this and that... I'm just waiting and then I'll see what comes :

I actually agree with what you've said.  "Innovation" in this case seems to come down to doing things differently from the competitors, so as to be distinctive from them.  It doesn't necessarily mean "better than" the others. 

I get the business aspect; that's just too obvious to mention.  But from my perspective, a good instrument will always remain a good instrument, even as other more "innovative" instruments come to market.  So, I can't get too excited about the big question: What new instrument will Sequential produce next?  I'm more interested in the question, How long will the old instruments be in production?  Rather than excitement, give me stability.

I'm still wondering if Sequential will ever produce that behemoth of a synthesizer that I've dreamed of for a decade - not innovative, but typically DSI-esque and massive.  The Poly Evolver Keyboard came to closest, but it's not the sort of instrument you can easily build up, as you can a Prophet '08/Rev2 with their module versions.  The Prophet 12 was second to the PEK on this scale, but it really wasn't around for long.  This is the difficulty with such an approach - it takes years to accumulate keyboard and module versions, and then the instrument is suddenly discontinued before the project is finished.

Pretty much, yes... I'm still wondering, if I'll ever see a fix of all the bugs that have been accumulating on the REV2... seems like an eon since any updates was made for the Prophet REV2, and it's still one if their latest devices... What probably irritates me just as much is the deaf ears I sense, when people take their time and write what they would like to see in all the "feature request" threads... I understand they cannot satisfy all of the requests, but at least I hoped to see some additions of some of the most frequently asked features, like for example the LFO Slew rate.

It seems as if producing new stuff is way more important than polishing their already finished "gems"... I've never understood this approach, and I probably never will...
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Quatschmacher on July 29, 2019, 05:10:29 AM
I do not see a problem in Sequential doing a VS or Wavetable synth... they have to compete too, not just create something new... doing new stuff is becoming harder and harder, so many "innovations" is more advanced versions of older ideas too. If they did a VS or Wavetabel synth they would just have to add enough bells and whistles for it to compete... and bells and whistles seem to be Dave's strength  ;D

I mean... what do people want right now, if it's to be "innovative"? ... many say that they have to do something inovative, but I do not see that many innovative suggestions at what that would be... also, how many ways can you be innovative, when you constantly have to do the Oscillator->Filter->Amplifier->Effects thing!? --- all the "innovativeness" we see these days are just different constellations of this same and overused way of creating synthesizers... the only thing they can really do is put extra "modules" between these, and swap the routings about and increase the modulation engine flexibility.

In the end, I do not think that Dave is thinking much about what's already on the market... he gets an idea in his "underground cave", and then he creates what he feels for... that's the best way to be innovative... if you always try to be like all the rest, you'll probably fail, and the end result will lack your soul in it... just let him do what he likes and do best, I'm sure it'll be something interresting, even if it won't be anything any of you want right now.

That's what I like here... he's trying to satisfy his own ideas, NOT the users... he may be inspired by what users want, but I'm perfectly sure, that even if that's the case, it will come out with twists of his own that is nothing like what you thought anyway.

That's why I've really stopped hoping for this and that... I'm just waiting and then I'll see what comes :

I actually agree with what you've said.  "Innovation" in this case seems to come down to doing things differently from the competitors, so as to be distinctive from them.  It doesn't necessarily mean "better than" the others. 

I get the business aspect; that's just too obvious to mention.  But from my perspective, a good instrument will always remain a good instrument, even as other more "innovative" instruments come to market.  So, I can't get too excited about the big question: What new instrument will Sequential produce next?  I'm more interested in the question, How long will the old instruments be in production?  Rather than excitement, give me stability.

I'm still wondering if Sequential will ever produce that behemoth of a synthesizer that I've dreamed of for a decade - not innovative, but typically DSI-esque and massive.  The Poly Evolver Keyboard came to closest, but it's not the sort of instrument you can easily build up, as you can a Prophet '08/Rev2 with their module versions.  The Prophet 12 was second to the PEK on this scale, but it really wasn't around for long.  This is the difficulty with such an approach - it takes years to accumulate keyboard and module versions, and then the instrument is suddenly discontinued before the project is finished.

Pretty much, yes... I'm still wondering, if I'll ever see a fix of all the bugs that have been accumulating on the REV2... seems like an eon since any updates was made for the Prophet REV2, and it's still one if their latest devices... What probably irritates me just as much is the deaf ears I sense, when people take their time and write what they would like to see in all the "feature request" threads... I understand they cannot satisfy all of the requests, but at least I hoped to see some additions of some of the most frequently asked features, like for example the LFO Slew rate.

It seems as if producing new stuff is way more important than polishing their already finished "gems"... I've never understood this approach, and I probably never will...

I donít know how much these threads get read by Sequential staff. I submitted my feature requests via support tickets and got responses. Not sure how much will be implemented though. 
Title: Re: Do you think Summer NAMM 2019 will give us a surprise .... ???
Post by: Razmo on July 29, 2019, 06:05:43 AM
I do not see a problem in Sequential doing a VS or Wavetable synth... they have to compete too, not just create something new... doing new stuff is becoming harder and harder, so many "innovations" is more advanced versions of older ideas too. If they did a VS or Wavetabel synth they would just have to add enough bells and whistles for it to compete... and bells and whistles seem to be Dave's strength  ;D

I mean... what do people want right now, if it's to be "innovative"? ... many say that they have to do something inovative, but I do not see that many innovative suggestions at what that would be... also, how many ways can you be innovative, when you constantly have to do the Oscillator->Filter->Amplifier->Effects thing!? --- all the "innovativeness" we see these days are just different constellations of this same and overused way of creating synthesizers... the only thing they can really do is put extra "modules" between these, and swap the routings about and increase the modulation engine flexibility.

In the end, I do not think that Dave is thinking much about what's already on the market... he gets an idea in his "underground cave", and then he creates what he feels for... that's the best way to be innovative... if you always try to be like all the rest, you'll probably fail, and the end result will lack your soul in it... just let him do what he likes and do best, I'm sure it'll be something interresting, even if it won't be anything any of you want right now.

That's what I like here... he's trying to satisfy his own ideas, NOT the users... he may be inspired by what users want, but I'm perfectly sure, that even if that's the case, it will come out with twists of his own that is nothing like what you thought anyway.

That's why I've really stopped hoping for this and that... I'm just waiting and then I'll see what comes :

I actually agree with what you've said.  "Innovation" in this case seems to come down to doing things differently from the competitors, so as to be distinctive from them.  It doesn't necessarily mean "better than" the others. 

I get the business aspect; that's just too obvious to mention.  But from my perspective, a good instrument will always remain a good instrument, even as other more "innovative" instruments come to market.  So, I can't get too excited about the big question: What new instrument will Sequential produce next?  I'm more interested in the question, How long will the old instruments be in production?  Rather than excitement, give me stability.

I'm still wondering if Sequential will ever produce that behemoth of a synthesizer that I've dreamed of for a decade - not innovative, but typically DSI-esque and massive.  The Poly Evolver Keyboard came to closest, but it's not the sort of instrument you can easily build up, as you can a Prophet '08/Rev2 with their module versions.  The Prophet 12 was second to the PEK on this scale, but it really wasn't around for long.  This is the difficulty with such an approach - it takes years to accumulate keyboard and module versions, and then the instrument is suddenly discontinued before the project is finished.

Pretty much, yes... I'm still wondering, if I'll ever see a fix of all the bugs that have been accumulating on the REV2... seems like an eon since any updates was made for the Prophet REV2, and it's still one if their latest devices... What probably irritates me just as much is the deaf ears I sense, when people take their time and write what they would like to see in all the "feature request" threads... I understand they cannot satisfy all of the requests, but at least I hoped to see some additions of some of the most frequently asked features, like for example the LFO Slew rate.

It seems as if producing new stuff is way more important than polishing their already finished "gems"... I've never understood this approach, and I probably never will...

I donít know how much these threads get read by Sequential staff. I submitted my feature requests via support tickets and got responses. Not sure how much will be implemented though.

They read them.. .otherwise they would logically not be writing in them :) ... but regarding REV2, I do not think there has been any kind of features added at any point since it's release (that I recall)... it has been mainly bug fixes.