The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Other Hardware/Software => Topic started by: Sacred Synthesis on February 09, 2016, 08:41:15 AM
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The biggest problem I face in my current set up is not that I'd like to add to it a new synthesizer - which I would - it's the lack of a proper pedalboard for bass. My Hammond XPK-200L is far too small for my needs, and it's especially difficult to improvise with, due to the limited number of notes. When playing a fugal type piece or anything with imitation, the ability to play the theme at various different pitches is constantly undermined, and in playing other pieces, I'm constantly having to transpose notes down into its limited range. Small pedalboards are fine for playing long notes and slow non-melodic lines, but I've always been an enthusiast for lively pedal playing.
Among the more realistic solutions is the Nord Pedal Keys 27. I've never played these, nor have I spoken with someone who has. And in spite of my many attempts, I can't get a straight answer to one simple question. If anyone here has firsthand knowledge of the Nord Pedal Keys 27, I'd like to know for certain if you can use it to control synthesizer modules. (Previously, I had the Hammond SK 25-Note Pedalboard, and it was impossible with it.) The instrument is made to be used with Nord's drawbar organ, and, although it's described as a MIDI controller, I've never been given a definite answer by someone who's actually used the instrument in this way. $2500 is too much for me to experiment with, so, I'd like to know beforehand. Thanks in advance for any help.
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To answer my own question - Nord says the Pedal Keys 27 will work only with the Nord organ, which is contrary to what others have claimed. Ah well, the search continues.
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No first hand knowledge but I did cheat and looked at the product page:
http://www.nordkeyboards.com/products/nord-pedal-keys-27
What hints at a useful design for your uses are:
- "The Pedal Keys 27 is a MIDI pedal board with 27 keys ..."
- "The Pedal Key 27's range is from C2 to D4, MIDI notes 36 to 62."
- "The Pedal Keys transmit on MIDI channel 3."
- MIDI cable included with the pedal board.
- One can almost see the MIDI Out port on the back side image.
But of cause I am just gross cheating RTFM style! ;)
Are you sure 27 keys are enough for you? How large a pedal board would you prefer? Five octaves?
My synthesizer hero Palle Dahlstedt have been caught in possession of such a pedal board:
https://youtu.be/R_qbRt3uepM
To answer my own question - Nord says the Pedal Keys 27 will work only with the Nord organ, which is contrary to what others have claimed. Ah well, the search continues.
I wonder why they say so given that MIDI is MIDI in form of a standard interface and protocol?
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I don't get it either. The specs make it look like an ordinary MIDI controller, like my present pedalboard - my fourth one now. Hammond makes three small instruments that can do this. But Nord says my plan won't work.
Although it's not the proper full size, twenty-seven notes would be sufficient for most of my needs.
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Seems like so much unnecessary work to make a MIDI-like proprietary interface, when MIDI is ridiculously simple and would only expand an instrument's market. But I guess that doesn't help if you want to be absolutely sure.
Is something like a Taurus totally off the table because of its size?
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Yes, a Taurus is far too small. I need at the very least twenty-five notes.
So, Sweetwater says it won't work and Pro Audio says it "should". That's what I'm dealing with. Nobody knows for certain.
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http://www.viscountinstruments.com/midi-pedalboards-173-173.html
I wouldn't spend good money on a pedalboard that wasn't concave. (I also have an organist / choirmaster background, and I'm no fan of short, flat pedalboards.)
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I'm aware of the Viscount; I think by now I must be aware of all the possibilities. As for concave and radiating - yes, I couldn't agree with you more. But considering the size and weight of such pedalboards, that possibility is only if I were to buy a proper console organ. Twice a day I think about getting rid of all these synthesizers and going that route - the whole affair is so frustrating.
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If I'm not mistaken, the music store closest to me is selling these. I'll try to check it out for you in the coming week. Maybe I can get the staff to hook up an external MIDI device to the pedals.
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Are you doing a lot of performance setup and teardown, where portability would become an issue?
There are a lot of virtual organ controllers out there that could be made to be portable with a bit of clever engineering; frankly, I never really correlated my preference for an organ (two-manual plus pedal) form factor to my electronic music controller preferences (until I realized that they both originated around the same time, as a natural progression from the piano).
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I have tried to chose pedalboards that are portable, in case I might perform. But let me say that there's a price to pay for this in that all of these mini portable pedalboards are awful to play serious music on, especially liturgical and classical music. I find it nearly impossible to play stepwise lines smoothly, not to mention having to constantly transpose notes down. Even the Hammond 25-note was of such poor design for this type of music.
On my present set (Hammond XPK 200L), the notes are longer than the tiny stub type. I've many times read that this is to facilitate toe-heel playing, but I think just who says this is of the utmost importance. Jazz players use toe-heel method, but this is primarily with the left foot, while the right foot remains on the volume pedal, and with a smooth legato being of little importance. With liturgical/classical music, toe-heel means both feet, with a perfect legato, and with the constant crossing of one foot before or behind the other. Hence, when studying organ, you do scales and arpeggios up and down the entire length of the pedalboard - even in sixteenth notes. It's a rather elaborate and impressive dance (as my wife likes to call it), and it's amazing how much music you can make just with your feet. But that's on a proper church organ pedalboard. The differences with the other mini pedals are substantial. For one, you have to nearly dislocate your hip in order to play the lowest note with your heel, since the minis are neither concave nor radiating.
I thought the solution to the problem would be in getting the Hammond 25-note pedalbaord. Not a chance; it has its own problems. The Hammond notes are triggered with the slightest touch, the most miniscule depression of the note. With a serious church organ, the note is triggered only after you've pressed down on it a half-an-inch or so, which allows for precise control and definition. It takes a slight effort to trigger it, but this results in exacting musical lines. Hammond also follows a different physical positioning of the organist in relation to the bench, pedalboard, and keyboards. I'm six-feet tall, and I found it very difficult to play the Hammond 25 because my knees were hitting the underside of the keyboard, and thus, my control of the pedals was poor. And this is using the proper Hammond bench for the XK organ. I've never had such problems with the many church organs I've played.
The result of this musical mess was for me to try to re-design my own organ set up: two Prophet '08 Keyboards, Modules to the left and right, a proper organ bench, and the pedalboard. The configuration even visually resembles a church organ.
I realize I'm only dreaming out loud, but, if synthesists followed the wise example of organists and seriously pursued pedal-playing, we'd probably see the advancement of synthesizer music out of the esoteric shadows, the maturing of the synthesizer as a serious musical instrument, less experimentation and more serious music-making, and possibly even a new style of music altogether. I've always felt modern synthesizer music was handicapped, due to the vacuum created by the absence of effective bass lines. It's one of the causes, in my outrageous opinion, that synthesists are so often enthralled with a dozen devices to fill in the blanks, and that multi-tracking seems to be the norm, rather than the exception. But imagine, instead, many serious and composing synthesists equipped with five-octave keyboards and 25-note or more pedalboards. Yes, a new style of music could arise from this arrangement - perhaps a variation on modern classical music - and the synthesizer would no longer have to sit amid the usual array of gadgets...those electronic crutches.
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I'm aware of the Viscount; I think by now I must be aware of all the possibilities.
Would the Viscount 32 work for you? Is there space enough below your keyboards to use this pedal board with your current setup?
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Note the parallels between the pictures below: two or three stacked five-octave keyboards, controls (modules) at either side, bench, and pedals. I'm trying to complete the pipe organ similarities. That's my final goal, and what remains to be added is a second module for the left side and a larger pedalboard.
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Would the Viscount 32 work for you? Is there space enough below your keyboards to use this pedal board with your current setup?
I suppose it's only a matter of spreading the keyboard stand farther apart. But of course, that's the end of portability. This is why I was hoping the Nord Pedalkeys 27 would work.
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Reading on the pipe organ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_organ) wikipedia page it seems that the standard pedal board size is 32 pedals. So at least the Viscount product matches that.
If only a serious company would make a properly shaped pedal board with carbon fiber keys for light weight. Or perhaps some other light weight material could work just as well.
Novice question: Do pedal boards need velocity sensitivity?
I suppose it's only a matter of spreading the keyboard stand farther apart. But of course, that's the end of portability. This is why I was hoping the Nord Pedalkeys 27 would work.
Seems like there is a lack in the current offerings: light weight and properly shaped pedal boards.
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Note the parallels between the pictures below: two or three stacked five-octave keyboards, controls (modules) at either side, bench, and pedals. I'm trying to complete the pipe organ similarities. That's my final goal, and what remains to be added is a second module for the left side and a larger pedalboard.
Are you using just two keyboards at a time or do you currently use four keyboards like shown in earlier photos? Would it be usable for you to have three synthesizers above one another together with the pedal board?
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Novice question: Do pedal boards need velocity sensitivity?
No. Nor do the keys. I realize this is anathema to synthesists, but the strength of organ is not in countless nuances, but in noble fortitude of tone. Personally, I find even delayed vibrato to be a luxury, though one I'd prefer to keep.
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If I could find the right full-sized pedalboard, I'd compose pieces just for pedals, as I have before.
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And yet there seems to be one such pedal board available! Its just heavy. And expensive! So free workout included in your perfect setup! ;-)
I am aware of one organ player here in the local jazz scene that bring his 250 kg Hammond organ to gigs. So it can be done! Your car may be driving on its back wheels only though.
;)
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Are you using just two keyboards at a time or do you currently use four keyboards like shown in earlier photos? Would it be usable for you to have three synthesizers above one another together with the pedal board?
I use two stacked keyboards over the pedalboard as the center of the set up, with one or two additional keyboards at right angles to the left (I still have the four DSI synthesizers.). Three stacked keyboards would be ideal, but because of the flat top panel design, it's too difficult to get at the top instrument. You see, the lowest keyboard cannot be too low, or my knees will hit it as I play the pedals. But that means the whole stack gets raised, and the top keyboard suffers the most.
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And yet there seems to be one such pedal board available! Its just heavy. And expensive! So free workout included in your perfect setup! ;-)
I am aware of one organ player here in the local jazz scene that bring his 250 kg Hammond organ to gigs. So it can be done! Your car may be driving on its back wheels only though.
;)
Very funny! When the Hammond 25-note pedal board arrived, it came on an eighteen-wheeler trailer truck. I had to carry that 65-pound monster in a giant box up to a third-floor apartment on a sweltering July afternoon by myself. I realized very quickly that "portable" was not quite the case.
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Three stacked keyboards would be ideal, but because of the flat top panel design, it's too difficult to get at the top instrument.
Sounds like knobby module on the side plus keyboard controllers would work better for this kind of setup then. I mean then the keyboards can be closer to each other and hence you could have three stacked together.
Very funny! When the Hammond 25-note pedal board arrived, it came on an eighteen-wheeler trailer truck. I had to carry that 65-pound monster in a giant box up to a third-floor apartment on a sweltering July afternoon by myself. I realized very quickly that "portable" was not quite the case.
I remember a story about one of the keyboard players on the local music scene who found an attractively priced Rhodes piano of some kind and basically could not play for weeks afterwards as he had to carry it several floors up more or less alone.
KMI do certainly have a point when it comes to affordable light weight controllers:
https://youtu.be/dFZd-YgCYKI?t=8m
Could be interesting if someone could convince KMI to do a full sized pedal controller for organ players. They use carbon fiber in most of their products so they are familiar with the technology. Only downside is that you would probably not want that many axes of control let alone a controller with keys that do not move very much. But the technology is there to make it happen. Light weight and all!
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This is not the style of music I had in mind, but it shows the musical power of a synthesist equipped with a pedalboard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMGdiOFGXFs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DuO7In9990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdEGiELy7h0
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdEGiELy7h0
Looks like the type of pedal board you are after. Wonder if its that 32 model mentioned on the previous page? Nice classical piece btw!
On the product design front imagine a modular pedal board that could be split into three or four more compact units and then easily be assembled when needed. While carbon fiber will fit the bill I am sure glass fiber is more affordable and could do the job just as well. There are surely options for further product development in that field!
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Yes, that's the proper size for a pedalboard.
I've actually thought about stacking pedalboards. Nah...too much of a good thing!
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Without stepping too much into the mine field I simply think you should drop the portability requirement and go for such a pedal board. Its just what you are after and its only 2k euros or so. And they keys are not made of lead so not to worry!
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@Sacred Synthesis: I think my earlier post got lost a bit. Would you like me to check out the Nord pedals at a nearby store and figure out whether it works as a MIDI controller?
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Paul, I hate to be a nuisance, but that would be a huge help to me. I simply want to connect the MIDI Out of the pedals to the MIDI In of the module - in this case, an Evolver Desktop. I've read something about it working only on channel 3 (on the Nord Forum), and also about a bug. On top of it, Sweetwater said that Nord said this cannot work. You'd think that would be my answer, but users say it does work. Great! I need to kill the rumors and get a final answer once and for all.
Paul, if you can get the magical answer to this question, I'll buy you a brand spanking new Prophet-6 Module...err...maybe...some day...maybe. ;D
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Without stepping too much into the mine field, I simply think you should drop the portability requirement and go for such a pedal board. Its just what you are after and its only 2k euros or so. And they keys are not made of lead so not to worry!
It may come to that, but I'm holding out hope a little longer. After being a working church organist for 25 years, being a studio musician was not what I had in mind.
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Paul, I hate to be a nuisance, but that would be a huge help to me. I simply want to connect the MIDI Out of the pedals to the MIDI In of the module - in this case, an Evolver Desktop. I've read something about it working only on channel 3 (on the Nord Forum), and also about a bug. On top of it, Sweetwater said that Nord said this cannot work. You'd think that would be my answer, but users say it does work. Great! I need to kill the rumors and get a final answer once and for all.
Paul, if you can get the magical answer to this question, I'll buy you a brand spanking new Prophet-6 Module...err...maybe...some day...maybe. ;D
I'll take a OB-6 instead if that's okay. ;)
Seriously, it's no problem to try that out. I have a friend in that store and it shouldn't be a huge problem to do a test run with an external MIDI device. From what I've read in the specs I can't see why it shouldn't work, which is why I tend to trust the users you've cited more on that matter than Nord or Sweetwater. But we want to be on the safe side. I'm not entirely sure what day I'm going to try it out, but I let you know as soon as I got there.
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Thank you. No rush. And I'll make that an OB-6 Module...err...maybe. ;D
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So yesterday I had the chance to check out the Nord Pedal Keys 27 for you. If your only concern is whether it works as a simple MIDI controller, I can assure you it does. I hooked it up to a Prophet-6 in the store and the pedal keys (including its volume pedal) worked immediately.
Also kudos to the guy who lifted this thing that was originally hanging on the wall…
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Thanks so much, Paul. I'm shocked, because NORD said this wouldn't work!
Tell me, do you have any other information about this? Any catches? Is it as simple as MIDI Out from the pedals to MIDI In on the module?
So I'll be shipping you that OB-6 module...maybe.
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Thanks so much, Paul. I'm shocked, because NORD said this wouldn't work!
Tell me, do you have any other information about this? Any catches? Is it as simple as MIDI Out from the pedals to MIDI In on the module?
So I'll be shipping you that OB-6 module...maybe.
Maybe Nord wants you to use only Nord products with it. And yes, it's just MIDI Out from the pedals to the MIDI In of whatever you'd like to hook it up to. I made sure to switch the Prophet to channel 3 since that was I believe the default of the Nord pedals.
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That's occurred to me, but at the outrageous price of $2,500, I would think Nord would be happy if I bought only a pedalboard!
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It's at least built like a tank.
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That's encouraging. It's almost the price of a tank.
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And you can hang it up your wall if you don't use it. ;D
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Yes, that's a possibility. But we're also in dire need of a 27-item coat hanger by the front door. This pedalboard may be just perfect. Oh, the neighbors will be so impressed with our avant garde hanger.
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Amazingly, this pipe organ has a pedalboard much like the Nord Pedal Keys 27:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8272qezRwY
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I've looked everywhere for a relatively full-length pedalboard, and the Nord Pedal Keys 27 are the best. They individual pedals are a tiny bit longer than the Hammond XPK 200L set that I presently use, which is essential for legato playing. I would say the Hammond is the second best, but they have only 20 pedals. For anyone interested in producing a full sound all by themselves, bass pedals are the way to go. The synthesist becomes a one-man electronic orchestra.
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It's already difficult enough to find a decent pedalboard. The other difficulty is to find a module to be controlled by the pedalboard. Thus far, I've found the best choice by far is the Evolver Desktop. The key is number of oscillators; you need as many as possible, and the Evolver's 4 are a good start. As for extant modules, perhaps the Toraiz AS-1 would be a good choice, although it offers only 2 oscillators. Its single LFO shouldn't be a problem since, for bass purposes, you'd only need to modulate the pulse width or the filter. And by the way, sub oscillators are generally not useful, especially if they're square or triangle, the reason being that, due to the lower range the instrument is set to, a sub oscillator needs to be less bassy - either a sawtooth or a narrow pulse. Otherwise, the boominess is overwhelming and the clarity of pitch is muffled.