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OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Off Topic => Topic started by: Sacred Synthesis on July 17, 2018, 05:19:58 PM

Title: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 17, 2018, 05:19:58 PM
I have grown completely exhausted from YouTube synthesizer demonstrations.  Until a year ago or so, I used to spend sometimes two hours in a day watching demos of synthesizers.  They weren't at all what I was looking for, but I watched them anyway.  It was as if I was always hoping they would tie me over until I finally found one I liked.  But no more.  I am done with watching fantastic multi thousand-dollar instruments being used to make little blips and blurbs, noises and effects, and perhaps just a few chords.  It is so rare to find a video in which a synthesizer is played for an uninterrupted five minutes of solo synthesizer music, the kind that showcases just the instrument, to the exclusion of the many devices that bury the synthesizer under a heap of beats, rhythms, sequences, loops, and other repetitious distractions.  Alongside these, the other half of the demos consists of the users quickly running through sounds, tweaking a few parameters - especially the filter cut off - and then feeling their job is done.   

So many superb instruments these days, but so few musical demonstrations of them.  So much noise, so little music. 

   
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: LoboLives on July 17, 2018, 08:33:05 PM
Why don’t you do instrument demonstrations? There’s not many Poly Evolver demos and you certainly are knowledgeable and passionate enough to do some videos. I’d watch em :)
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 17, 2018, 08:41:47 PM
But that's exactly what I do.  Those videos are musical demonstrations, rather than parameter exercises.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: LoboLives on July 17, 2018, 09:57:07 PM
But that's exactly what I do.  Those videos are musical demonstrations, rather than parameter exercises.

I mean you actually explaining in detail about the Poly Evolver not just your songs/performances.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Gerry Havinga on July 18, 2018, 04:04:28 AM
I have grown completely exhausted from YouTube synthesizer demonstrations.  Until a year ago or so, I used to spend sometimes two hours in a day watching demos of synthesizers.  They weren't at all what I was looking for, but I watched them anyway.  It was as if I was always hoping they would tie me over until I finally found one I liked.  But no more.  I am done with watching fantastic multi thousand-dollar instruments being used to make little blips and blurbs, noises and effects, and perhaps just a few chords.  It is so rare to find a video in which a synthesizer is played for an uninterrupted five minutes of solo synthesizer music, the kind that showcases just the instrument, to the exclusion of the many devices that bury the synthesizer under a heap of beats, rhythms, sequences, loops, and other repetitious distractions.  Alongside these, the other half of the demos consists of the users quickly running through sounds, tweaking a few parameters - especially the filter cut off - and then feeling their job is done.   

So many superb instruments these days, but so few musical demonstrations of them.  So much noise, so little music. 
Yes I totally agree. Technical, how-to style, demonstrations are great from my perspective as long as the demonstrator sets clear objectives at the beginning making clear what he/she is trying to achieve. But there is a lack of musical "displays" what an artist can achieve with an instrument. Perhaps also an audio only platform, with options to include text to explain how the artist has gotten to this result, will be better suited for that.

I really enjoy Troels' videos demoing the Prophet X and some of the products 8Dio are selling. He is capable of demonstrating a really nice combination of musical & strong emotive showcases plus all the technical stuff. He also enjoys wine and candle light  :) that appeals to the romantic part of me.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: chysn on July 18, 2018, 06:16:18 AM
I don't have any problem finding music on YouTube.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Gerry Havinga on July 18, 2018, 10:22:03 AM
Nice one for the Rev2: https://youtu.be/dFgva0rv71M (https://youtu.be/dFgva0rv71M)

Pure music, static "video"  picture.

Why all this Youtube video obsession?
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 18, 2018, 11:19:43 AM
I don't have any problem finding music on YouTube.

Sure, you can find bits and pieces.  But I mean substantial pieces of solo synthesizer music that you can play for some time in the background while you're working.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 18, 2018, 11:25:32 AM
Why all this Youtube video obsession?

No obsession here.  At this point, I don't even look any longer.  I'll continue to post music, but now I keep to my little corner of YouTube and leave it at that.  It just seems like such a lost opportunity.  But if there is an obsession, I'd say it's with the fascination with posting countless videos that demonstrate the same revolving fragments of parameter tweaking over and over and over and over and over.  Sure, a certain amount of this is useful, but the sheer volume of it is crazy.

Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: chysn on July 18, 2018, 01:16:09 PM
It sounds like you're expecting a coupling of "demos" and "music" that doesn't really exist.

I've never been much of a watcher of demos, but for the music I'm interested in, there's no shortage of ways to watch people use specific things. Emily Sprague will list modules used and some degree of patch notes, and you can watch her work, but she's not trying to "sell" or "demonstrate" any particular thing.

Or ann annie, same thing. I was looking into the Hermod module, and found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DNpKkSnbRM, which is a complete piece of music, but shows the usage of the gear. Nobody's chatting about it, and nobody's in a hurry to explain everything.

I have bought modules based on seeing them used in these types of videos, but that's not the purpose of the videos.

It's largely a matter of subscribing to the people you like and seeing what they make. I care more about processes than about how squealy a filter's resonance can get. When I really want to dig into the operation of something, I don't care that much whether it's musical.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 18, 2018, 03:23:58 PM
You're right, Chysn, in suggesting that "demo" is not the right word.  Call it what you or I will, solo synthesizer music of the traditional sort is not nearly as abundant on YouTube as the masses of geeky techy noisy stuff that makes me check my woofers for tears.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: chysn on July 18, 2018, 08:31:42 PM
You're right, Chysn, in suggesting that "demo" is not the right word.  Call it what you or I will, solo synthesizer music of the traditional sort is not nearly as abundant on YouTube as the masses of geeky techy noisy stuff that makes me check my woofers for tears.

So the problem you're bringing to our attention is that people aren't making the kind of music you like? I know you like Bach, and there's no shortage of Bach for synthesizer, so what is it? I feel like a renewed trip to the Big Dark Relativistic Pit is in order, or else we're nearing Get Off My Lawn You Crazy Kids territory.

I don't think there's ever been so much good stuff out there, but the percentages are about the same as they've always been. I wouldn't presume to suggest that you expand your musical horizons, but I can't believe that you can't find anything worth listening to.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: LoboLives on July 18, 2018, 08:52:42 PM
I always thought traditional synthesizer music was bleeps and bloops ala The Barons. Synths originally were used for sound effects rather than actual musical compositions...but that changed with Wendy Carlos and it’s use in Disco and Dance music. Regardless Sacred Synthesis, your music sounds nothing like traditional synthesizer music at all. I would equate it more towards early Phaedra era Tangerine Dream type soundscapes with focus mainly on pads and strings rather than repetitive motifs or classical performance.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Gerry Havinga on July 19, 2018, 12:07:03 AM
I always thought traditional synthesizer music was bleeps and bloops ala The Barons. Synths originally were used for sound effects rather than actual musical compositions...but that changed with Wendy Carlos and it’s use in Disco and Dance music. Regardless Sacred Synthesis, your music sounds nothing like traditional synthesizer music at all. I would equate it more towards early Phaedra era Tangerine Dream type soundscapes with focus mainly on pads and strings rather than repetitive motifs or classical performance.
There is also quite a bit of Klaus Schulze videos and performance out there. Personally I really like his stuff with Lisa Gerrard, especially Rheingold and Loreley are amazingly beautiful and haunting, almost ambient, compositions (and they last for 20+ minutes ;-).
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 19, 2018, 06:47:40 AM
Yeah, I knew I was stepping in it with the expression, "traditional music."  I knew it.  It's a lightening rod among synthesists.  Ah well....carry on, fellas.  Just seeing if the water temperature might have at all changed around here.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: chysn on July 19, 2018, 07:35:43 AM
Yeah, I knew I was stepping in it with the expression, "traditional music."  I knew it.  It's a lightening rod among synthesists.  Ah well....carry on, fellas.  Just seeing if the water temperature might have at all changed around here.

The root of the problem with the expression "traditional music" is that it doesn't mean anything but to the person using it. We can make suppositions about what each other's traditions might be, but there's no clarity to it. Somebody here might have exactly what you're looking for, but isn't really sure what you mean.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 19, 2018, 08:11:25 AM
I've explained before in detail exactly what I mean with the expression "traditional music."  Terms either have meaning, or there's no point in using them.  That's why I've tried to be clear.  I'm not referring necessarily to a style of music, although in my case, the preference is always for classical.  Yet, that classical music need not be Baroque.  In fact, I think Baroque music sounds terrible on synthesizers.  The reason it's been so popular, I would guess, is that Baroque music used counterpoint, which conveniently consisted of individual lines performed simultaneously.  That happened to suit the multi-tracking of synthesizer parts, each of which could then use a different patch.  The two seemed to be a perfect match for each other.  But in my opinion, the synthesizer could never improve on the sound of the original acoustic instruments, and the numberless attempts I've listened to for decades make that certain in my mind.  There have been some impressive attempts, alright, but still.

By the expression "traditional music" I always mean the use of the fundamental elements of melody, harmony, beat, and rhythm.  Where I part with the typical synthesizer music is in what I would call a mind-numbing exaggerated use of beat and rhythm - due to the use of drum machines and related devices - and also with the additionally exaggerated use of repetition, due to looping and sequencing.  To these four fundamental elements of music I would also add those of form and theme and development.  These are the most challenging elements in composition - the intellectual aspects that require effort and discipline in giving a coherent shape to the musical ideas that might have come quickly and easily.  To mention two examples - the beginning and the end.  The first few measures of a composition can be very difficult to create, and so can the conclusion of the whole piece, which must somehow, by a near miracle, conclude in a logical and beautiful way all that has gone before it.  Traditional music includes these, but what I constantly hear among synthesists is the avoidance of the beginning and the end, and the replacement of them with a convenient fading in and fading out, so that there really isn't a beginning and definitely isn't a conclusion.

When I refer to the absence of "traditional music" performed on solo synthesizer on YouTube, I mean complete keyboard (!) compositions performed start to finish by a human being's hands and/or feet, without other devices that occupy an awful lot of time and space, and that use the above mentioned-elements of music.  What I also dislike in the use of these ubiquitous little devices is their covering over of the sound of the synthesizer.  A fine carefully designed patch deserves to be heard from start to finish.

I guess what amazes me is that the above paragraph seems like Egyptian hieroglyphics to synthesists.  So be it.  But jeepers, give it a chance.  This is where I believe there could arise a fabulous repertoire of mature (!) solo synthesizer music - complete compositions that need nothing except one synthesizer (or several) and one synthesist (or several).  And what is frustrating is when the response to this proposition is, "Well, that's not real synthesizer music, cause you're not using the synthesizer like a real synthesist would."  In other words, my music is not real synthesizer music, but your synthesizer music is, because of the high priority that equipment plays in its creation.  Nonsense!  Real synthesizer music consists of music composed for a synthesizer, even if that music could be performed on an organ or a piano.  It was intended first and foremost for the synthesizer, and the lofty place given to the traditional elements of music changes nothing.  It's synthesizer music, period. 
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: chysn on July 19, 2018, 09:24:16 AM
Yes, that clarifies it, thank you. I think the confusion is that "traditional," to me, refers to cultural traditional music, which is really diverse. Japanese traditional music is a lot different than African traditional music. It sounds to me like you mean "classical music," which isn't even really traditional European music. But no matter, we have a context for what you mean.

And I can see why you're having trouble finding that kind of thing. It's like several endangered paradigms stacked on top of each other, but with synthesizers. You might have to resolve to being the lonely holdout for a while. Music in exile. There's something romantic about that, right?
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 19, 2018, 09:31:54 AM
I just added a few important things to the second paragraph above.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 19, 2018, 09:37:28 AM
Yes, that clarifies it, thank you. I think the confusion is that "traditional," to me, refers to cultural traditional music, which is really diverse. Japanese traditional music is a lot different than African traditional music. It sounds to me like you mean "classical music," which isn't even really traditional European music. But no matter, we have a context for what you mean.

And I can see why you're having trouble finding that kind of thing. It's like several endangered paradigms stacked on top of each other, but with synthesizers. You might have to resolve to being the lonely holdout for a while. Music in exile. There's something romantic about that, right?

That was a reasonable and generous response, Chysn.  I appreciate it very much.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: chysn on July 19, 2018, 10:04:35 AM
Well, I'll tell you what I'm weary of. Drumkits. If I hear kick-snare-hat in something that's not rock and roll or jazz, I'm out.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Soundquest on July 19, 2018, 10:40:20 AM
 There much more room for distraction from new gizmos in synth world than would be found in the woodwind world for example, and so the videos are going to focus more that way.  Unlike Sacred Synthesis, I haven't reached viewing exhaustion just yet, although those seemingly obligatory filter blasts and squeals found in so many these demos are pushing me to the brink :-\
 
Not limited to synths,  but one of my video peeves is how some of the truly good players (and even some well-known pros) when they are demoing an instrument seem to gravitate to playing as fast and complex and they can possibly muster.  Rarely is this conducive to demonstrating an instruments sound.  It's like basing a test drive of a new car purchase only on a peddle-to-the-metal trip down the drag strip.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Soundquest on July 19, 2018, 10:49:28 AM
Well, I'll tell you what I'm weary of. Drumkits. If I hear kick-snare-hat in something that's not rock and roll or jazz, I'm out.

Holy Cow, you said it Chysn.  Some many songs tainted with drum machines where it makes no sense to have it.  Hey, and that's coming from a drummer ;)
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 19, 2018, 11:23:29 AM
I think a large part of this issue is related to the GAS problem.  All those neat looking generally affordable gadgets with delicious blinking lights quickly make a studio look sophisticated and professional.  Folks buy heaps of them, until the music they produce is the result of trying to incorporate some of them, or as many of them as possible, into each song.  But the GAS is related to the instruments also, in that folks want to buy one new or different instrument after another.  The result is that they quickly grow bored with the instruments they presently own and fail to deeply explore and push any one instrument to its capacity. 

By contrast, imagine the pianist who has only one sound, and must learn how to make the most of that sound for a whole life time, drawing out from it all the subtle nuances and variations possible.  I must admit, that simple and direct approach, that resourcefulness, fills me with admiration.

For all the years I was a church organist, I never once thought of buying organ-related objects.  When I studied harpsichord, I never thought of adding harpsichord-related gadgets to my music room.  It was 100% about the instrument and what my mind, hands, and feet could do with it.  And that's exactly how I approach the synthesizer. 
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: chysn on July 19, 2018, 05:23:50 PM
I think a large part of this issue is related to the GAS problem.

It's also possible that people are making music in ways that satisfy their need for expression. Lacking harmony or form or melody isn't a downfall of anybody's music; it just means that you won't like it, and they probably don't even know you. My view is that harmony is failed experiment and my opinion of melody isn't much more charitable. But when I encounter these things in music, I don't necessarily find them cloying. The most important thing, to me, is balance: like a top spinning and overcoming little local instabilities, or a sumo wrestler staying on his feet against another one. We all have our own things we listen for, but nobody owes these things to us. It's best to not attribute their absence to some personal or systemic failure. Start with the assumption that people are doing what they enjoy.

Quote
By contrast, imagine the pianist who has only one sound, and must learn how to make the most of that sound for a whole life time, drawing out from it all the subtle nuances and variations possible.  I must admit, that simple and direct approach, that resourcefulness, fills me with admiration.

I've never been unsatisfied with a piano. There's no synthesizer that can fill a room like that. I hope I never need to choose between my piano and my modular.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: megamarkd on July 19, 2018, 06:51:57 PM
Taste=Subjective.  And that's a lot of the review vids.

I like Markus Fuller's videos but he's only got so many and they aren't demo's as such, though he does tend to play nicely at the end of them.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 19, 2018, 08:12:16 PM
I think a large part of this issue is related to the GAS problem.

It's also possible that people are making music in ways that satisfy their need for expression.

I'm not denying that.  But I think one of the effects of GAS is the production of GAS music.  That seems only natural, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Shaw on July 19, 2018, 09:26:40 PM
I think one of the effects of GAS is the production of GAS music.
Well Said!
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: LoboLives on July 19, 2018, 09:40:21 PM
I would say if anything the performances online require a little more...I dunno...consistency and context. The videos themselves are either static while the music plays or they go on far too long without any context. Perhaps instead of doing video after video of experimenting with their gear or demoing patches (Which are both fine) try to put those performances in the context of a song or album. It's sort of like drone music. I can go see a Sunn O))) show or listen to a full album no problem but when it's just a single track I lose interest. Perhaps it's less to do with the music and performance itself and more to do with the lack of context. There's almost no song titles, no video editing to go along with the music, it's just "Moog Grandmother Patch Demo" and a 5 minute video of someone turning various dials and sliders on their synth or stepping through patch after patch so quickly nothing has time to digest. I don't care if the video is 5 minutes of pads and strings or bleeps and bloops, I'd just like a little more effort put into other elements to give it context.  There is a channel called "Sounds & Things" and a lot of it is just a Korg MS20 run through various reverbs, delays, phasers etc but the performer gives each performance a song title and splices in footage of old science fiction films. I like that a lot.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: megamarkd on July 19, 2018, 10:26:59 PM
....but the performer gives each performance a song title and splices in footage of old science fiction films. I like that a lot.

I agree with this, give your work a title at least, it's a sign that you created something, not just went through a process of open/plug in/test/demo.

My music is crap and lately I've only really done simple examples of the sounds I am making, but I give them names and try to find interesting video (to distract from crap composing, heheh). I used to write stories about the sounds years ago when tape was king.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: chysn on July 20, 2018, 05:44:02 AM
I'm not denying that.  But I think one of the effects of GAS is the production of GAS music.  That seems only natural, doesn't it?

GAS music?
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: LoboLives on July 20, 2018, 07:07:52 AM
I'm not denying that.  But I think one of the effects of GAS is the production of GAS music.  That seems only natural, doesn't it?

GAS music?

I think he just means music that is using all the gear someone has at once for the sake of it rather than for the sake of composition. I’m not sure I buy that though...look at the dude from Synthmania. The guy has a ton of synths and music gear and yet he approaches each of his videos differently with totally different styles and different gear.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 20, 2018, 11:00:03 AM
Yes, that's what I mean. 
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 20, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
....but the performer gives each performance a song title and splices in footage of old science fiction films. I like that a lot.

I agree with this, give your work a title at least, it's a sign that you created something, not just went through a process of open/plug in/test/demo.

My music is crap and lately I've only really done simple examples of the sounds I am making, but I give them names and try to find interesting video (to distract from crap composing, heheh). I used to write stories about the sounds years ago when tape was king.

I'm satisfied with putting all the effort into the music, and then posting a beautiful picture.  I don't think anybody goes to my channel for a media thrill.  It's music or nothing, and that's just the way I want it to be.  It they want pictures or videos of tons of equipment, then they have a thousand or more other videos from which to choose.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: dsetto on July 21, 2018, 05:56:56 AM
Would you agree this thread is discussing two separate notions: Music and YouTube Synthesizer Demos? They are related, and not.

And like all, the range is wide. I am referring to reasons for existence (of the music) to its results. And the maker's experience. And the listener's experience of it.

As a listener, I have become less interested. ... I continue to tell myself to go seek.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: dsetto on July 21, 2018, 06:14:43 AM
- Groove. To me it's important.
- Thoughtfulness - conscious, or better, sub-conscious. Important.

These are deeply subjective.

On a deeper, slow level: groove can be loosely applied to form. Form "groove" requires an attentiveness that is the opposite of what feels like the wideheld norm today. (Maybe that was always the case, but today there is the i-soapbox.)

---
Perhaps some classic Minimalism (Reich, Glass) may bridge gap between what you crave and what exists in synth demos. Not that you are trying to bridge a gap, nor that they are the same.

The advice I would give myself: It is resonance of spirit I seek. Once motivated, seek.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 21, 2018, 03:40:11 PM
Would you agree this thread is discussing two separate notions: Music and YouTube Synthesizer Demos? They are related, and not.

Yes, the original topic has broken up into two different issues.  I only intended the YouTube theme.  The other "traditional music" issue has already been discussed elsewhere.  It's a touchy topic.  I think a synthesizer forum is the wrong place for such a discussion, which is why I went into this unwillingly.  It better belongs on a blog as a discussion between mutual enthusiasts striving for a common goal.  It's pointless to go into it without a number of people who share the same views and are striving for the same goal.  Otherwise, it turns into yet another debate with those who don't even care for the idea.  But there are just so few of us. 

I wish more musicians like myself would take the synthesizer seriously.  What would that look like from a video perspective (since we started out talking about YouTube)?  To describe a setting: a musician sitting at a full-sized polyphonic synthesizer under a desk lamp in front of a music stand playing powerful and expressive solo synthesizer pieces, complete from start to finish; fresh new compositions that are ten or twenty minutes long, with dynamic changes, theme and development, melody, harmony, and contrapuntal or even fugal; preludes, interludes, postludes, and meditations; and every note and nuance scored.  In other words, something totally different.  That's all I'm talking about and wishing for.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: LoboLives on July 21, 2018, 05:30:59 PM
Would you agree this thread is discussing two separate notions: Music and YouTube Synthesizer Demos? They are related, and not.

Yes, the original topic has broken up into two different issues.  I only intended the YouTube theme.  The other "traditional music" issue has already been discussed elsewhere.  It's a touchy topic.  I think a synthesizer forum is the wrong place for such a discussion, which is why I went into this unwillingly.  It better belongs on a blog as a discussion between mutual enthusiasts striving for a common goal.  It's pointless to go into it without a number of people who share the same views and are striving for the same goal.  Otherwise, it turns into yet another debate with those who don't even care for the idea.  But there are just so few of us. 

I wish more musicians like myself would take the synthesizer seriously.  What would that look like from a video perspective (since we started out talking about YouTube)?  To describe a setting: a musician sitting at a full-sized polyphonic synthesizer under a desk lamp in front of a music stand playing powerful and expressive solo synthesizer pieces, complete from start to finish; fresh new compositions that are ten or twenty minutes long, with dynamic changes, theme and development, melody, harmony, and contrapuntal or even fugal; preludes, interludes, postludes, and meditations; and every note and nuance scored.  In other words, something totally different.  That's all I'm talking about and wishing for.

I think it’s a bit unfair to say they aren’t taking it seriously. They are simply doing a different style that you don’t enjoy. A lot of synth players aren’t classically trained musicians but that doesn’t make them somehow inferior. Some people might think your music is too redundant with constant use of pads and string sounds. Some people would say that you should just have a SoundCloud account because your videos are visually dull. Doesn’t mean they are right or wrong. What I’ve noticed is a lot of people enjoy shorter content these days. While long compositions are nice I can almost be certain people will change videos half way through or divert their attention to something else and have the music play in the background. At the end of the day you have your own style that you do and do quite well. No sense in turning your nose up or looking down on others who don’t do the same style. Focus on making your music be unique in the synth sub genre rather than focusing on making everyone else adopt your style.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: megamarkd on July 21, 2018, 09:46:27 PM
I sorta feel this is straying away from the demo thing and becoming a bash-fest.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: LoboLives on July 21, 2018, 11:01:19 PM
I sorta feel this is straying away from the demo thing and becoming a bash-fest.

I think it’s simply a case of the question being unclear. The core topic went from being about criticisms of presentations to criticisms of performances to debates on personal taste.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: jg666 on July 23, 2018, 05:42:57 AM
I still watch a lot of YouTube synth videos but as soon as they start getting into modular stuff I find that an immediate turn off (usually). There are far too many people messing around with modular gear who have no musical talent at all. I don’t have a problem with that, if you’re enjoying what you’re doing then that is fine, but trying to pass it off to the World as musical talent then I draw the line.

I’ll probably upset a few people saying this !!
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: megamarkd on July 24, 2018, 06:52:49 PM
Music is sport.....
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: chysn on July 24, 2018, 07:58:16 PM
Music is sport.....

Music is wiggly air.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: megamarkd on July 24, 2018, 09:54:44 PM
Music is sport.....

Music is wiggly air.

LOL!  Yes, it is.  It's also subjective.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: LoboLives on July 25, 2018, 01:22:58 AM
I have always defined music as focused noise.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: megamarkd on July 25, 2018, 01:44:47 AM
I have always defined music as focused noise.

Listen to much PWEI?  Heheh, I don't blame you if you say no but are actually lying, I pretend I didn't sometimes ;)
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: LoboLives on July 25, 2018, 09:18:12 AM
I have always defined music as focused noise.

Listen to much PWEI?  Heheh, I don't blame you if you say no but are actually lying, I pretend I didn't sometimes ;)

I haven’t even heard of them until I looked them up after I saw your post haha.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: dsetto on July 31, 2018, 12:49:18 AM
Would you agree this thread is discussing two separate notions: Music and YouTube Synthesizer Demos? They are related, and not.

...

I wish more musicians like myself would take the synthesizer seriously.  What would that look like from a video perspective (since we started out talking about YouTube)?  To describe a setting: a musician sitting at a full-sized polyphonic synthesizer under a desk lamp in front of a music stand playing powerful and expressive solo synthesizer pieces, complete from start to finish; fresh new compositions that are ten or twenty minutes long, with dynamic changes, theme and development, melody, harmony, and contrapuntal or even fugal; preludes, interludes, postludes, and meditations; and every note and nuance scored.  In other words, something totally different.  That's all I'm talking about and wishing for.
That would be interesting. ... I once saw a video of an monophonic ensemble. It reminds me of what you're describing.

...
 I believe the following ...
… I wish more musicians like myself would take the synthesizer seriously.  …
... simply means that Sacred Synthesis wishes that other musicians that share some of the characteristics described in his post would use the synthesizer as their primary instrument of musical expression. It does not communicate that musicians embracing different approaches or goals don’t take their pursuits seriously.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: dsetto on July 31, 2018, 08:14:44 AM
I have always defined music as focused noise.

In this thread several main musical areas have been discussed.

- Form of pitches & "pitch-sequences", aka melodies.
- Their micro-placement in time. Aka, rhythm, or better performed-rhythm, i.e. groove.
- Organized sound. Organized noise. (Aka, Lobo's "focused noise")

Each musical land can have a different combination of emphases of those things. Electrical architects have brought us together, here.

__
Personally, I've gravitated away from written/scored long-form musical expression. (I still and have always improvised, simply.) I was drawn to the synthesizer for its capability of musical expression, including its rhythmically responsive action. And its portability. I convinced myself because of its capability to musically express noise. Otherwise, I had an old piano.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: dsetto on July 31, 2018, 08:51:13 AM
Would you agree this thread is discussing two separate notions: Music and YouTube Synthesizer Demos? They are related, and not.

Yes, the original topic has broken up into two different issues.  I only intended the YouTube theme.  ...
I meant ...
There is a wide variety of motivations & intentions for posting a YouTube video that is explicitly synthesizer-centric. With respect to this thread, these can range from a purely musical expression to a purposefully un-musical demonstration of the gadget. ... I wonder if there exists videos on YouTube that are not linked in any way to synthesizer-related terms, but is synthesizer-centric music that possesses the qualities you seek. And then, I wonder how much of that exists on an audio-only platform?

What I am trying to say is something you know firsthand. "Demos" and musical expression aren't necessarily linked. Perhaps, infrequently linked. ... In writing this, I realize what an interesting notion that itself is. Now I think of the New Orchestra period. The New Piano period. The New Rock Band period. The New Drum Machine period. The New Large Architectural period, presented by sacred human voice only. In a sense, demos. The pervasive screen. The attention span. The new time.

And I'll end with: Have you explored different ways of seeking? ... If you start your blog reporting your findings, send us its link. ... Blogs. Have you tried finding what you seek there?
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 31, 2018, 10:55:33 AM
Would you agree this thread is discussing two separate notions: Music and YouTube Synthesizer Demos? They are related, and not.

...

I wish more musicians like myself would take the synthesizer seriously.  What would that look like from a video perspective (since we started out talking about YouTube)?  To describe a setting: a musician sitting at a full-sized polyphonic synthesizer under a desk lamp in front of a music stand playing powerful and expressive solo synthesizer pieces, complete from start to finish; fresh new compositions that are ten or twenty minutes long, with dynamic changes, theme and development, melody, harmony, and contrapuntal or even fugal; preludes, interludes, postludes, and meditations; and every note and nuance scored.  In other words, something totally different.  That's all I'm talking about and wishing for.
That would be interesting. ... I once saw a video of an monophonic ensemble. It reminds me of what you're describing.

...
 I believe the following ...
… I wish more musicians like myself would take the synthesizer seriously.  …
... simply means that Sacred Synthesis wishes that other musicians that share some of the characteristics described in his post would use the synthesizer as their primary instrument of musical expression. It does not communicate that musicians embracing different approaches or goals don’t take their pursuits seriously.

Thank you, Dsetto.  That's exactly correct.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 31, 2018, 11:04:12 AM
And I'll end with: Have you explored different ways of seeking? ... If you start your blog reporting your findings, send us its link. ... Blogs. Have you tried finding what you seek there?

I try to avoid using this forum as a means of promoting my own philosophy.  Once in a while, I fail and say more than is prudent, as on this thread.  My intended approach is always, "Shut up and do it."  I shouldn't bother trying to describe it, nor defend it.  Doing so is always a vain effort.  Besides, this is a DSI company blog, and I try to respect that.  But I do have a blog, which is linked under each YouTube posting.  It's only a beginning, but it does and will describe a very different approach to synthesis. 
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: dslsynth on July 31, 2018, 11:27:01 AM
I saw a concert some time ago that at times basically sounded like Sacred Synthesis were playing. There are differences though as they were four people on stage featuring drums, vocals, QuNexus operated eurorack for sound effects and of cause quite some analog and digital synths. Their artistic goal is to make synthesized chamber music. So I suggested that they checked out Sacred Synthesis on youtube.

Short summary: There are young artists out there who wants to make synthesized classical music.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 31, 2018, 11:35:22 AM
Thanks, Dslsynth.  That's interesting and encouraging.  When I first got back into synthesis in the significant year of 2008(!), I was dreaming of creating a synthesizer ensemble for performing compositions in this style, but much more elaborate.  Not showy, but more musically advanced.  Having been around traditional musicians my entire life, I presumed it would be easy enough to gradually find synthesists and other musicians with similar interests.  Now there's a lesson learned! 

I'm still strongly of the belief that the synthesizer's potential in this musical domain remains nearly untapped.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: dslsynth on July 31, 2018, 11:48:18 AM
And that is why I just think you should just go for it. Maybe only a few other people can see the light. But who cares!? Your collection of youtube videos shows the musical substance of what you want to create.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 31, 2018, 11:53:06 AM
You're right.  Thanks, again.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: dsetto on July 31, 2018, 12:03:55 PM
Neat - on a blog discussing what you enjoy about synthesis. ... By the way, what I intended to express with both mentions of "blog" was one that presented links to other people's music. ...

This is the "Off Topic" section of this forum. It is important to this forum that there remain a place for engaging & healthy discussion of music and synthesizers that are beyond gear acquisition. We don't all need to share all the same values. We're each our ever-changing combination.  ...

I'll repeat that reading your thoughtful discussions on the Prophet '08 literally promoted my eventual purchase of a Rev2. Although it sounds strange, the discussions between you and all the other active Pre-Prophet 12 keyboard folk were a positive, in my book, for pursuing a DSI keyboard synth. Different forums have different, vibrant spirits. (The Tempest forum was its own breed. As is the drummer.)

-
I began to very slowly get into hardware keyboards around 2008 as well. Early thing I observed: the permanence of the "cheesy" keyboard demo. A peculiar art-form. And I mean, the salesman at the brick & mortar store. It was exactly as I remembered it as a kid. The "blues" scale. Lots of thrown away, missed keys. As if making 60% sound-to-effort mattered more than 10% quality, intended pitch in time. ... Things have changed, and not.

A demo is a demo.
Music is music.
Some make music as the demo. The Quality Demonstration. It is an interesting notion; one I had forgotten about, until this thread, today.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Sacred Synthesis on July 31, 2018, 01:01:36 PM
By the way, what I intended to express with both mentions of "blog" was one that presented links to other people's music. ...

Yes, I've many times thought of doing that.  I had such a thread on the old DSI/Prophet forum that linked to YouTube videos of synthesizer arrangements/performances of classical music.  It included some rather spicy discussions.  But it takes an immense amount of time searching through the bowels of YouTube if it's to be done with any completeness - many late nights, so that I decided I wouldn't do it again here or elsewhere.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: shiihs on October 13, 2018, 05:20:22 AM
I have to admit the one channel on youtube that convinced me to investigate synths in more detail was not one tediously "demonstrating" oscillators and filter settings on a bunch of synths, but one that creates actual music, that allowed me to dream of what I perhaps one day could accomplish if only I work hard enough (and even if I can't accomplish it, the journey is more interesting than reaching the goal). If you look for "marc melia music for prophet 08" in youtube you'll find the videos I'm referring to. Not classical music, but incredibly well done.

I too have been disappointed that there aren't a lot more channels like his, showing off finished compositions.

At the risk of sounding like an old fart: we live in times of instant gratification - buy anything online and it's delivered the next day! ("Free of risk" cause you can send it back if you don't like it.) Post a video/picture online and get instant likes! Binge watch an entire season of your favorite series over the weekend instead of waiting for a next episode every week, etc.

Instant gratification is what makes alcohol, drugs, gambling and social media so addictive, and marketeers are happy to exploit the mechanism for short-term profit.

Evidence seems to suggest this very mechanism is one that on the longer term is undermining the fabric of society leading to rise in populism world-wide, increasing depression, burn-out and suicide rates in young adolescents, and crappy synth demos on youtube.

Here's something I found worth my time touching on these subjects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As8XkJNaHbs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As8XkJNaHbs).

Watch it for some instant gratification and some mid-term agony :)


Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: BobTheDog on November 21, 2018, 11:23:03 AM
Interesting post and one I agree with mostly.

"Undermining the fabric of society" is one way of looking at it and is the basic view once you get older, I for one now say exactly the same things that used to annoy me about the older generation when I was young. I have become one of the people that had a structure to be undermined.

Another way of thinking about It is "changing the fabric of society" which is something that has been happening constantly since the concept of time was invented.

It will all be different soon.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: cornonthecob on March 26, 2019, 07:56:50 PM
I dont see the point of putting up blogs, youtube channels and wasting time in the whole social media world trying to get validation. Bottom line for me music is a way of earning a living. I got an Electrical engineering degree and somehow ended up with a studio :) long story. I enjoy what I do and get a paycheck for it, thats more than enough for me.

People need to stop worrying about what other people do or trying to get social media pats on the back. Its a waste of time. Spending Hours a day watching people testing instruments seems counterproductive. Much better to spend that time elsewhere like honing your skills and improving your trade or go out and smell the flowers.

You have people who put up youtube channels and they get upset because they get few views, like somehow having lots of views validates thier existence these individuals are stressed and upset because other channels get more views and they feel that they are the superior channel with better content but somehow society fails to recognize thier great skills. Stop wasting your time with such nonsense.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: LoboLives on March 27, 2019, 03:44:48 PM
I dont see the point of putting up blogs, youtube channels and wasting time in the whole social media world trying to get validation. Bottom line for me music is a way of earning a living. I got an Electrical engineering degree and somehow ended up with a studio :) long story. I enjoy what I do and get a paycheck for it, thats more than enough for me.

People need to stop worrying about what other people do or trying to get social media pats on the back. Its a waste of time. Spending Hours a day watching people testing instruments seems counterproductive. Much better to spend that time elsewhere like honing your skills and improving your trade or go out and smell the flowers.

You have people who put up youtube channels and they get upset because they get few views, like somehow having lots of views validates thier existence these individuals are stressed and upset because other channels get more views and they feel that they are the superior channel with better content but somehow society fails to recognize thier great skills. Stop wasting your time with such nonsense.

Well there's a few ways of looking at this.

1.) Not everyone is making money doing what they love. You are very fortunate that way. I'm still waiting on unpaid invoices from clients for soundtrack work I've done for their films. I've had checks bounce. I've had people dismiss me almost immediately with the very mention of an original soundtrack before even asking me my rate because they want to go with what's the cheapest thing possible. The reality of being a composer for film and television is we are the last ones in at the party and first ones out the door. There's no other position in the film industry that can be dismissed with four simple words "We'll use stock music."

2.) A lot of synth YouTubers from around the world got to fly to Germany recently and meet up at Thomann's Synth Reactor. I don't know what the exact criteria was, but I'm sure number of views/followers had something to do with it. I have no illusions that my channel is going to get anywhere near the amount of followers BoBeats or Synthmania or Dawless Jammin have, I know it's not and I've accepted that. My stuff is too niche, my videos are bland and my content isn't marketable. I don't do EDM or Acid jams or Eurorack synthscapes. I don't do Depeche Mode or Genesis covers. I do cult film soundtracks and I know that most people who play synths aren't into them. Most synth players don't care about those soundtracks or what synths were used. Hell, I was at the Composers Guild Of Canada a week or so ago and more than half the composers there don't even listen to soundtracks let alone synth based ones. It's just not a popular thing.

I was one of the first people to do Prophet X videos on YouTube. None of those demonstrations got shared. They barely got any views. I'm not on any artists roster. I've never been asked to do an artist interview. I just do what I do for fun now because it helps me avoid going into a depression. It just helps me get through the day and strive towards something. Sometimes that's more worth it than a paycheck. Still...makes me kind of sad to see my name on a movie poster and have the film win an award and see no change in my bank account and no requests for future soundtrack work.

So while it would be nice to make money off of music. It's just not the reality for a lot of us and in many cases, it never will be.
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: jok3r on March 28, 2019, 01:59:02 AM
I'm just looking at all the cool vids from the Thomann Synth Reactor... and I like it very much to see all the more or less famous Youtubers having the same fun in Treppendorf that I have regularly. Especially when they go "wow look at all the stuff thoman has!"

This is my favorite gem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pvynSbU6Rs&list=PLgVy1_uJcb2e2-aQ0cGVDUirQKq8XHpZo&index=16

It not only show's the fun the people had in these days, but also show's the strength of our local German (especially Franconian) beer ;-)  I can't stop watching this. Marc Doty is such a funny person ;-)
Title: Re: Demo-Weary
Post by: Paul Dither on March 29, 2019, 02:28:30 PM
Since the thread derailed from demo-weary to beer-thirsty, I decided to split the topics from here on.