The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Off Topic => Topic started by: Shaw on June 29, 2018, 02:59:36 PM
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Not trying to start a political discussion here -- this is really posted more for the collective interest in the manufacture of Moog instruments.
Anyway, see attached screen-shot of an emailI just received from Moog (I assume many of you got it too).
... and below is how I replied to Moog:
"Moog Music,
Most of your customers would rather you make your boards, components and synths here in the United States. Moog is a premium brand, but if you start off-shoring your parts and production, people will start viewing you as competing with Behringer. That would not necessarily be the best business model.
Regards,
Shaw"
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Here’s also a link: https://us2.campaign-archive.com/?e=&u=66ca69d70dceab5be9897856d&id=a2684e1453
And a recent comment by Peter Kirn: http://cdm.link/2018/06/trumps-tariffs-could-be-costly-for-made-in-the-usa-music-gear/
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Not trying to start a political discussion here --
This is alright in this particular context, as it will affect a great number of manufacturers (many Eurorack makers are also located in the US) and users of the global community, whether one considers oneself political or not.
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Not trying to start a political discussion here --
This is alright in this particular context, as it will affect a great number of manufacturers (many Eurorack makers are also located in the US) and users of the global community, whether one considers oneself political or not.
I really do hope that Moog (and others) keep as much of their production local as possible.
Otherwise, what separates them from Behringer? (That’s not a rhetorical question... I’m hoping to get opinions here)
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Not trying to start a political discussion here --
This is alright in this particular context, as it will affect a great number of manufacturers (many Eurorack makers are also located in the US) and users of the global community, whether one considers oneself political or not.
I really do hope that Moog (and others) keep as much of their production local as possible.
Otherwise, what separates them from Behringer? (That’s not a rhetorical question... I’m hoping to get opinions here)
Yeah, Moog, DSI, Buchla, and numerous Eurorack manufacturers are in the same boat here. If you really want a discussion I can also move this topic to a new thread.
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Not trying to start a political discussion here --
This is alright in this particular context, as it will affect a great number of manufacturers (many Eurorack makers are also located in the US) and users of the global community, whether one considers oneself political or not.
I really do hope that Moog (and others) keep as much of their production local as possible.
Otherwise, what separates them from Behringer? (That’s not a rhetorical question... I’m hoping to get opinions here)
Yeah, Moog, DSI, Buchla, and numerous Eurorack manufacturers are in the same boat here. If you really want a discussion I can also move this topic to a new thread.
That is probably a good idea... no need to clog up the Moog One thread talking about international production pros and cons.
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It looks like we're in Off Topic here, not Moog One. I have written my representatives. I certainly hope all our friends at Moog, Buchla, and DSI can survive this.
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Just curious...is there any reason that they can’t use US made circuit boards? Or better still wouldn’t this give incentive for a startup company that makes circuit boards in the US if one doesn’t exist already?
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Just curious...is there any reason that they can’t use US made circuit boards? Or better still wouldn’t this give incentive for a startup company that makes circuit boards in the US if one doesn’t exist already?
That’s EXACTLY what I was thinking. And they would have more control over QA which hopefully would increase quality.
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Just curious...is there any reason that they can’t use US made circuit boards? Or better still wouldn’t this give incentive for a startup company that makes circuit boards in the US if one doesn’t exist already?
That’s EXACTLY what I was thinking. And they would have more control over QA which hopefully would increase quality.
I see this less as a job loss and more of a potential job opportunity. I mean we are already paying $3k plus for synths anyway and with a Polyphonic Moog reaching almost $8k...if 500 to $1000 extra means American Made Circut Boards..well...it just means that the investment is even more worth it.
I’ve seen a lot of guitar companies switching over to overseas pickups...there’s nothing wrong with them but I can tell the difference compared to a D Allen or Loller pickup. I dunno if I’m paying a premium price for an American Made instrument I want it to be completely American made, not assembled in America with cheap parts.
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The naive view is that tariffs encourage companies to buy American-made goods because the price of foreign raw materials goes higher. But this doesn't happen because American companies are able to raise prices to the tariff level, and the result is across-the-board price increases, and the protectionist advantage soon evaporates. Meanwhile, since these tariffs apply to raw materials and not finished consumer products, manufacturers are incentivized to move out of the U.S., where they can basically avoid the tariffs for buying materials and selling goods.
I don't think it's particularly important where things are made. As consumers, we're far better off taking advantage of a global economy. This seems so self-evident to me that the decisions of a self-styled "business tycoon" are particularly bewildering. It plays well in Pennsylvania, is all I can think of.
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The naive view is that tariffs encourage companies to buy American-made goods because the price of foreign raw materials goes higher. But this doesn't happen because American companies are able to raise prices to the tariff level, and the result is across-the-board price increases, and the protectionist advantage soon evaporates. Meanwhile, since these tariffs apply to raw materials and not finished consumer products, manufacturers are incentivized to move out of the U.S., where they can basically avoid the tariffs for buying materials and selling goods.
I don't think it's particularly important where things are made. As consumers, we're far better off taking advantage of a global economy. This seems so self-evident to me that the decisions of a self-styled "business tycoon" are particularly bewildering. It plays well in Pennsylvania, is all I can think of.
Again though, I’m not sure why companies can’t use American Raw materials or if companies manufacturing the raw materials can’t come to fruition.
It’s unimportant where things are made...but it is important what things are made from.
There is a new boutique guitar amp called the Smart Belle..Lee Jackson actually had EVERYTHING that went into that thing, made in America and in some cases custom made by engineers from scratch when parts didn’t exist.
My view is this...I would ask Moog why I should buy a Moog over a Behringer? If both companies are using the same overseas boards why should I spend more money on a Moog? A lot of answers would probably include the words “quality”, “craftsmanship”, and the phrase “supporting American workers”...now apply that logic to circuit boards...
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The thing is it isn't necessarily the boards, Moog probably do make those. It is the components. If your components are only made in China you get the hit.
Now in the long run the manufacture of these components could be moved to the USA, it is a big job but it could be done. The prices would rise but thats the way of things.
When you have a history of outsourcing, insourcing becomes an expensive change.
My bet is once the price of everything that includes electronic components goes up in the States there may be a rethink.
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Right, it's only about imported electronic components like resistors, tantalum capacitors, LEDs, displays, etc. If you use these and assemble the boards inside the US, you'll get punished. If you continue using these parts and move the production and assembly abroad, you are fine (oh the irony). If you can source equivalents for those parts from the US, you'll more than likely pay more for them. In cases 1 and 3, the customer will have to pay for the increased production costs as well or the manufacturer has to lay off employees to compensate for the increased production costs, so you're basically left with choosing between increased sale prices or unemployment.
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Again though, I’m not sure why companies can’t use American Raw materials or if companies manufacturing the raw materials can’t come to fruition.
One of those double-edged swords sort of prevents that: wage expectations vs. price expectations. We want our electronics-rich lifestyles, but we want those things to cost very little.
My view is this...I would ask Moog why I should buy a Moog over a Behringer?
Why would you ask Moog that question? Try out the instruments if you can, or listen to demos if you can't try them. If you find that a Behringer is as good as the Moog, then buy it. It's meaningless to ask Moog to justify themselves when you should be setting your own criteria for buying instruments.
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Why would you ask Moog that question? Try out the instruments if you can, or listen to demos if you can't try them. If you find that a Behringer is as good as the Moog, then buy it. It's meaningless to ask Moog to justify themselves when you should be setting your own criteria for buying instruments.
And don't forget the ethical issues..... Like Behringers business practice of suing people for expressing opinions. This has opened my mind about the possibility of buying a Moog. If it costs more money, the purchase will have to wait a bit.
Running a country based on installing fear in it's population is a much worse strategy ..... Changing trade agreements is quite normal run of the mill practice. In a world economy you cannot blame organizations and countries to try to gain an advantage.
But this doesn't of course apply that much in the field of electronic musical instruments. After all a Moog is a Moog, made in the USA. A Quantum is a Quantum made in Germany. They are not commodity articles, they all have distinct personalities and trademarks. Perhaps it makes sense for companies that produce these kind of specialized instruments to be made exempt of these kind of import (or even export) taxes.
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Again though, I’m not sure why companies can’t use American Raw materials or if companies manufacturing the raw materials can’t come to fruition.
Because they're either not available or too expensive. In order to be competitive in the electronic component sector you have to manufacture under dumping wage conditions or fully automated, the latter of which entails a technological investment (automatization) that only pays off if you end up producing in large quantities.
It’s unimportant where things are made...
Not really, in most so-called western countries, no one would work for a company producing electronic components that are made under conditions that would keep the sales prices competitive in the end. The according wages wouldn't be worth getting out of bed. So the only realistic alternative is full automatization, which doesn't create jobs and requires a huge market for what is being produced. (This is related to what Bob mentioned about outsourcing and insourcing.)
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Not really, in most so-called western countries, no one would work for a company producing electronic components that are made under conditions that would keep the sales prices competitive in the end. The according wages wouldn't be worth getting out of bed. So the only realistic alternative is full automatization, which doesn't create jobs and requires a huge market for what is being produced. (This is related to what Bob mentioned about outsourcing and insourcing.)
I don't think that is entirely true anymore. When Sony took over production of the Raspberry Pi in Wales (UK) they were (and still are) capable of switching real fast between the different PCB designs and components. Of course as you pointed out, it was worth the effort because of volume. But setting up automation has come down in price a lot. Even in the maker world of electronics there is a lot of automatic low cost assembly & 3D printing and so forth going on.
Perhaps the trade wars will push boutique manufacturers to investigate and work out how to setup small scale automation. The only problem that will stay is how to get the base materials that make up the components. Some of those are only mined in certain parts of the world.
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The naive view is that tariffs encourage companies to buy American-made goods because the price of foreign raw materials goes higher. But this doesn't happen because American companies are able to raise prices to the tariff level, and the result is across-the-board price increases, and the protectionist advantage soon evaporates. Meanwhile, since these tariffs apply to raw materials and not finished consumer products, manufacturers are incentivized to move out of the U.S., where they can basically avoid the tariffs for buying materials and selling goods.
I don't think it's particularly important where things are made. As consumers, we're far better off taking advantage of a global economy. This seems so self-evident to me that the decisions of a self-styled "business tycoon" are particularly bewildering. It plays well in Pennsylvania, is all I can think of.
This is not necessarily true. I have lived in countries with high tariffs, and locals had good jobs without companies inflating prices for domestic products. Additionally, the country had virtually no homeless population while having no real welfare system to speak of.
Tariffs can absolutely be placed on finished products. Many countries around the world do this today.
Again, I would love to see Moog make 100% American made synths... just as I enjoy my Japanese made Ibanez guitar.
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I don't think that is entirely true anymore. When Sony took over production of the Raspberry Pi in Wales (UK) they were (and still are) capable of switching real fast between the different PCB designs and components. Of course as you pointed out, it was worth the effort because of volume. But setting up automation has come down in price a lot. Even in the maker world of electronics there is a lot of automatic low cost assembly & 3D printing and so forth going on.
Sony is quite a big player, though. I was thinking more of smaller manufacturers and the pressure to produce and sell in large quantities in order to compensate for the automatization investment, which might not be equally lucrative across the board, meaning: certain components that are still being used in synths might not meet the same market size as widely used components for consumer electronics like tablets, etc.
Perhaps the trade wars will push boutique manufacturers to investigate and work out how to setup small scale automation. The only problem that will stay is how to get the base materials that make up the components. Some of those are only mined in certain parts of the world.
Indeed. And many boutique manufacturers might not have the resources to even think about small scale automation including sourcing alternatives for base materials.
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Tariffs can absolutely be placed on finished products. Many countries around the world do this today.
Certainly. I meant that the new U.S. tariffs primarily target raw materials like steel and PCBs, rather than finished products like nails and synthesizers. It's primarily raw materials tariffs that I oppose, as their effects ripple chaotically around the economy, and they provide perverse incentives counter to their stated purpose.
I don't think that reducing the trade deficit is a worthy goal, by the way. I have a $15,000 per year trade deficit with my grocery store. They buy pretty much nothing from me. But I don't freak out about it because I get what I want out of the relationship.
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More on this: http://cdm.link/2018/06/moog-urges-us-citizens-to-take-action-to-stop-trump-import-tax/
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Certainly. I meant that the new U.S. tariffs primarily target raw materials like steel and PCBs, rather than finished products like nails and synthesizers. It's primarily raw materials tariffs that I oppose, as their effects ripple chaotically around the economy, and they provide perverse incentives counter to their stated purpose.
I agree with you on that. Raw materials are raw materials given the same spec and tolerances. It what the designer and labor force does with those materials that matter.
I suppose I like to think that a synth made by people who are synthesists themselves (Moog) will surpass a synth made by Chinese factory workers who were making phones the prior week and hard drives the week before that.
I don't think that reducing the trade deficit is a worthy goal, by the way. I have a $15,000 per year trade deficit with my grocery store. They buy pretty much nothing from me. But I don't freak out about it because I get what I want out of the relationship.
Your grocery bill is more of an investment that (by keeping you alive) allows you to produce more than you spend. While you may have a negative trade deficit with your grocer, your monetary trade surplus against your employer is many times higher.
For countries, it’s a different comparison. Because in terms of countries (which don’t eat) the trade deficit is much more important as a metric in terms of whether its economy is growing (the prime indicator of economic health).
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For countries, it’s a different comparison. Because in terms of countries (which don’t eat) the trade deficit is much more important as a metric in terms of whether its economy is growing (the prime indicator of economic health).
The U.S. hasn't had a trade surplus since 1975. It has nothing to do with growth. If the dollars come back in the form of investment, it simply doesn't matter whether we import more than we export. The trade deficit is a political bludgeon because it seems like it would be a bad thing. But there are so many other factors that are better indicators. I'd say, if we're going to pick some crazy number to try to fix, it would be better to focus on income inequality.
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This was the Smart Belle amp I spoke of...go to 1:40 and they talk about how they had to find craftsman in different states to custom make parts for them.
https://youtu.be/WJVu6lF8UPk
Again, I’m not saying that Moog themselves have to make the Raw material but perhaps we will see companies that CAN afford automation to start manufacturing them...will it be more expensive? Well, a Moog One is slated to be around $8k anyway...I highly doubt anyone who is spending that much money on a synth to begin with is going to complain about price.
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For countries, it’s a different comparison. Because in terms of countries (which don’t eat) the trade deficit is much more important as a metric in terms of whether its economy is growing (the prime indicator of economic health).
The U.S. hasn't had a trade surplus since 1975. It has nothing to do with growth. If the dollars come back in the form of investment, it simply doesn't matter whether we import more than we export. The trade deficit is a political bludgeon because it seems like it would be a bad thing. But there are so many other factors that are better indicators. I'd say, if we're going to pick some crazy number to try to fix, it would be better to focus on income inequality.
We are going to have to agree to disagree here. While trade deficit certainly isn’t the only thing that matters to growth, it is a key component in the analysis.
... and this issue has an effect on income inequality as well.
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Again, I’m not saying that Moog themselves have to make the Raw material but perhaps we will see companies that CAN afford automation to start manufacturing them...will it be more expensive? Well, a Moog One is slated to be around $8k anyway...I highly doubt anyone who is spending that much money on a synth to begin with is going to complain about price.
Yeah... I really hope this thing doesn’t turn out to just be vaporware... I doubt I’ll ever own one, but I like to see Moog pushing the envelop.
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Actually does anyone know the exact details in regards to the tariffs...I mean from the horse’s mouth not from some Vice article lol. What EXACTLY is included, what EXACTLY is exempted?
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Actually does anyone know the exact details in regards to the tariffs...I mean from the horse’s mouth not from some Vice article lol. What EXACTLY is included, what EXACTLY is exempted?
You’ll find the according link in the CDM article.
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The “horses mouth” on world tariff rates would be the WTO. Here’s a link to the 2017 WTO report on global tariff profiles comparing countries.
https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/tariff_profiles17_e.pdf
The is US tariff rates is among the lowest in the world.
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Actually does anyone know the exact details in regards to the tariffs...I mean from the horse’s mouth not from some Vice article lol. What EXACTLY is included, what EXACTLY is exempted?
You’ll find the according link in the CDM article.
Reading through it, the proposal is simply that, a proposal and is inviting interested person to comment. If anything I see more of a compromise happening in regards to the tariffs and I’ll bet we’ll see “special incentives” for startups manufacturing items in the U.S.
What I see happening:
I can see that the tariffs on certain raw material be exempt (if those raw materials cannot be found or are not manufactured currently on U.S. soil)
I can see that the tariffs are not imposed on items in the development or experimental stage on the condition that once the final product goes into production that at least 80-90% of the product are from components manufacturered on U.S. soil.
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EETimes: https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1333420
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Found this post on my Facebook from someone who constructs synths.
"First off: here is the official list of items proposed to be subject to a 25% tariff. For 99.9999% of people in the 'synth biz', the items of concern are on Page 46. Caps and resistors and trimmers and panel pots (but not encoders, or switches or knobs or jacks or......pc boards....WHEW)
https://ustr.gov/…/de…/files/files/Press/Releases/301FRN.pdf
So, what does this mean?
for resistors.....nothing. I mean, $14 for a reel of 5000? Meh.
for capacitors? Hell's Bells, they already raised the pricing 300-350% 6 weeks ago, after everyone panic-bought the shelves to zero inventory. So Meh yet again.
for pots? Now this is the big one, especially for me. But still, if a Euro module has 8 pots, and you bought them from Mouser for $0.60ea, the impact is ($0.60 * 0.25) * 8 = $1.20
So, a manufacturer can just eyeroll and suck up the entire BOM impact (call it $1.45) or raise wholesale pricing $5 which then raises retail $9.
What SHOULD NOT HAPPEN is raising the price of the entire product 25% and then yelling BUT HIS TARIFFS!
What will happen specifically at SynthTech is that when I have to re-order my $2.53ea pots, which are from China, and they are on the list, I will raise my prices to cover THIS cost. The caps and resistors I will just shrug off.
And I hope others will keep the panic and outrage to a minimum"
There's actually no tariff on "Chinese Circuit Boards".
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Thank you for that. As much as i don't think Trump has what it takes to run a country, I know that lobby groups tend to misrepresent issues to benefit their cause. The post above this has shown how a FUD campaign is under way.
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Thank you for that. As much as i don't think Trump has what it takes to run a country, I know that lobby groups tend to misrepresent issues to benefit their cause. The post above this has shown how a FUD campaign is under way.
I don't blame Moog per say. They claim their supplier came to their ship and broke the news to them. So either the supplier was misinformed or outright lied to them and they took it as gospel.
Still I'm curious to see how exactly this plays out...starting a campaign or writing to your government and asking to stop something from happening that wasn't even happening in the first place.
I seriously hope Moog isn't trying to justify a massive price increase just to simply point fingers at you know who.
I will say one thing about DSI, they always remain "business only" and never get into political or social issues. They don't alienate their customers. It's all about their synths and having fun. That's the way it shoud be....Moog (at least in the Facebook groups) on the other hand....
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I will say one thing about DSI, they always remain "business only" and never get into political or social issues. They don't alienate their customers. It's all about their synths and having fun. That's the way it shoud be....Moog (at least in the Facebook groups) on the other hand....
That’s just bad business and ignorance on Moog’s part. But they still make great synths.
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I will say one thing about DSI, they always remain "business only" and never get into political or social issues. They don't alienate their customers. It's all about their synths and having fun. That's the way it shoud be....Moog (at least in the Facebook groups) on the other hand....
That’s just bad business and ignorance on Moog’s part. But they still make great synths.
Yes they do...and that's what they should focus on 100%, not writing dumb posts about having a festival with almost no male performers or interviews with artists about their personal beliefs or choices with almost no discussion of Synthesis. I love DSI's artist's spotlight. It's all about the synths and the music not a VICE article.
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Here's a good book if you want to understand Moogfest: https://www.amazon.com/Analog-Days-Invention-Impact-Synthesizer/dp/0674016173/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1530486991&sr=8-1&keywords=analog+days
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I will say one thing about DSI, they always remain "business only" and never get into political or social issues. They don't alienate their customers. It's all about their synths and having fun. That's the way it shoud be....Moog (at least in the Facebook groups) on the other hand....
That’s just bad business and ignorance on Moog’s part. But they still make great synths.
Yes they do...and that's what they should focus on 100%, not writing dumb posts about having a festival with almost no male performers or interviews with artists about their personal beliefs or choices with almost no discussion of Synthesis. I love DSI's artist's spotlight. It's all about the synths and the music not a VICE article.
Bob's dead and it's not like his name was never highjacked and used for evil in the past. Oh course they will produce immaculate synths, but the guiding vision is gone and I have had feeling since Bob gasped his last, it'll be like Apple now that Steve has passed; new iterations of the same thing with not much in the way of innovation. What was Bob's last stance on another PolyMoog? Meh, just give me a Mother32 and that's all the Moog I will ever need.
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I will say one thing about DSI, they always remain "business only" and never get into political or social issues. They don't alienate their customers. It's all about their synths and having fun. That's the way it shoud be....Moog (at least in the Facebook groups) on the other hand....
That’s just bad business and ignorance on Moog’s part. But they still make great synths.
Yes they do...and that's what they should focus on 100%, not writing dumb posts about having a festival with almost no male performers or interviews with artists about their personal beliefs or choices with almost no discussion of Synthesis. I love DSI's artist's spotlight. It's all about the synths and the music not a VICE article.
Bob's dead and it's not like his name was never highjacked and used for evil in the past. Oh course they will produce immaculate synths, but the guiding vision is gone and I have had feeling since Bob gasped his last, it'll be like Apple now that Steve has passed; new iterations of the same thing with not much in the way of innovation. What was Bob's last stance on another PolyMoog? Meh, just give me a Mother32 and that's all the Moog I will ever need.
Well to be fair the stability of older poly synths was nowhere near what it is today and with PolyMoog after PolyMoog being returned for repairs...especially since it wasn't his idea (it was David Luce) I can see why Bob wasn't thrilled about it.
I want Moog to be discussing things like built in effects on their synths, multitimbrality, Polyphony etc. Not politics. I got booted out of one of the Facebook groups because I posted the statement above explaining another manufacturer's point of view on the tariffs. Like...honestly...stuff like that makes it incredibly difficult for me to want to support them.
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This topic caught my eye as I bought an Arturia MatrixBrute a couple weeks ago. I knew Arturia was headquartered in France and was quite surprised to receive a box with, "Made in China" stamped on it. I guess I just thought it would be made in France ::)
Check this out, I bought my MatrixBrute through Amazon.com and a 3rd party seller named, "Everything Music" on July 28. I paid $1,999 and they threw in a 1 year extended free warranty. There were several Amazon retailers selling the MxB for $1,999, and a few at $2,299. I just took a look on Amazon and not a single Amazon retailer is selling the synth now for anything less than $2,299! Everything Music is now selling the MatrixBrute for $2,299 with no extended warranty for a price increase of 15%. I guess the old saying is true...timing is everything ;)
So what do people think, is it correct to surmise that this price increase and elimination of the extended warranty is an effect of the recently announced China tariff?
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This topic caught my eye as I bought an Arturia MatrixBrute a couple weeks ago. I knew Arturia was headquartered in France and was quite surprised to receive a box with, "Made in China" stamped on it. I guess I just thought it would be made in France ::)
Check this out, I bought my MatrixBrute through Amazon.com and a 3rd party seller named, "Everything Music" on July 28. I paid $1,999 and they threw in a 1 year extended free warranty. There were several Amazon retailers selling the MxB for $1,999, and a few at $2,299. I just took a look on Amazon and not a single Amazon retailer is selling the synth now for anything less than $2,299! Everything Music is now selling the MatrixBrute for $2,299 with no extended warranty for a price increase of 15%. I guess the old saying is true...timing is everything ;)
So what do people think, is it correct to surmise that this price increase and elimination of the extended warranty is an effect of the recently announced China tariff?
Could be lots of things... including good old fashioned supply and demand. If Everything Music had 10 of them, they’re likely to offer discounts to move them. If they have 1 or 2, less incentive to make a deal... I’ve sold synths on Reverb for more than I paid for them... same reason... there was minimal supply when I listed mine, so I commanded my price.
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This topic caught my eye as I bought an Arturia MatrixBrute a couple weeks ago. I knew Arturia was headquartered in France and was quite surprised to receive a box with, "Made in China" stamped on it. I guess I just thought it would be made in France ::)
Check this out, I bought my MatrixBrute through Amazon.com and a 3rd party seller named, "Everything Music" on July 28. I paid $1,999 and they threw in a 1 year extended free warranty. There were several Amazon retailers selling the MxB for $1,999, and a few at $2,299. I just took a look on Amazon and not a single Amazon retailer is selling the synth now for anything less than $2,299! Everything Music is now selling the MatrixBrute for $2,299 with no extended warranty for a price increase of 15%. I guess the old saying is true...timing is everything ;)
So what do people think, is it correct to surmise that this price increase and elimination of the extended warranty is an effect of the recently announced China tariff?
Could be lots of things... including good old fashioned supply and demand. If Everything Music had 10 of them, they’re likely to offer discounts to move them. If they have 1 or 2, less incentive to make a deal... I’ve sold synths on Reverb for more than I paid for them... same reason... there was minimal supply when I listed mine, so I commanded my price.
True, but I don't think that's it in this case. When I bought mine they had 2 in stock...now they show 2 in stock again. The thing is it wasn't just the retailer I bought from that raised the price 15%, it was every Amazon retailer that carries them (and there were at least 4 others at the $1,999 mark 2 weeks ago). Why does everyone move up 15% at the same time? Seems like an odd coincidence especially in light of the China tariff announcement. OTOH, Sweetwater had them at $2,299 a couple weeks ago and remained at that price, so who knows ;)
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This topic caught my eye as I bought an Arturia MatrixBrute a couple weeks ago. I knew Arturia was headquartered in France and was quite surprised to receive a box with, "Made in China" stamped on it. I guess I just thought it would be made in France ::)
Check this out, I bought my MatrixBrute through Amazon.com and a 3rd party seller named, "Everything Music" on July 28. I paid $1,999 and they threw in a 1 year extended free warranty. There were several Amazon retailers selling the MxB for $1,999, and a few at $2,299. I just took a look on Amazon and not a single Amazon retailer is selling the synth now for anything less than $2,299! Everything Music is now selling the MatrixBrute for $2,299 with no extended warranty for a price increase of 15%. I guess the old saying is true...timing is everything ;)
So what do people think, is it correct to surmise that this price increase and elimination of the extended warranty is an effect of the recently announced China tariff?
Could be lots of things... including good old fashioned supply and demand. If Everything Music had 10 of them, they’re likely to offer discounts to move them. If they have 1 or 2, less incentive to make a deal... I’ve sold synths on Reverb for more than I paid for them... same reason... there was minimal supply when I listed mine, so I commanded my price.
True, but I don't think that's it in this case. When I bought mine they had 2 in stock...now they show 2 in stock again. The thing is it wasn't just the retailer I bought from that raised the price 15%, it was every Amazon retailer that carries them (and there were at least 4 others at the $1,999 mark 2 weeks ago). Why does everyone move up 15% at the same time? Seems like an odd coincidence especially in light of the China tariff announcement. OTOH, Sweetwater had them at $2,299 a couple weeks ago and remained at that price, so who knows ;)
I hear you... another possibility is Arturia enforcing their Minimum Advertised Price. Those prices are contractual. Retailers who violate that contract risk losing their ability to sell as official Arturia retailers (which is important to the buyer for things like warranty).
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^ good point...that could certainly be the case. Either way I pulled the trigger just in time ;D
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I believe the MatrixBrute was actually slated to have a price increase before the Tariffs were even announced.
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I believe the MatrixBrute was actually slated to have a price increase before the Tariffs were even announced.
Interesting. Well, it looks like almost everyone's at the $2,299 mark now, though I found a couple odd ducks still at $1,999 ;)
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http://www.synthanatomy.com/2018/03/arturia-matrixbrute-price-raise-july-1st-2018.html
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http://www.synthanatomy.com/2018/03/arturia-matrixbrute-price-raise-july-1st-2018.html
"Due to increasing cost of the internal analog components, manufacturing, and shipping, Arturia have made the decision to raise the price of the MatrixBrute, which was announced at NAMM 2016, and has gone on to win multiple media, consumer, and pro audio awards since its release."
This was announced way back in March before the Chinese tariff increase became an issue so I guess they're not related after all ;)
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Even still...the difference in price isn’t that bad.
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"Due to increasing cost of the internal analog components, manufacturing, and shipping, Arturia have made the decision to raise the price of the MatrixBrute....
I read that as well. I figure you could translate that to mean anything — including, but limited to, the following:
— “Shipping rates around the world are on the rise and we’re passing the costs along.”
— “The first batch of components weren’t so great, so we sourced better quality, albeit more expensive, components for subsequent runs.”
— “These things are more popular than we thought, so we figured we’d get a little extra out of them.”
— “Last week, we fired guy who decided to price this thing $1500 under the Moog Model D.”
:)
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— “These things are more popular than we thought, so we figured we’d get a little extra out of them.”
That was the first one that popped into my mind! When I was researching my purchase I looked at 20+ customer reviews and all but one were 5 stars (the other was a 4). They must be pretty confident in continued sales otherwise they wouldn't cross the $2K psychological pricing barrier moving minimum retail from $1,999 to $2,299 ;)
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Here's a Sweetwater post on the matter:
Tariffs have been in the news a lot lately. What do they mean for you and the gear you love?
Raw materials and goods from China are being affected by tariffs announced in June that started to be implemented in July and August. As you can imagine, this will impact the music instrument industry, as China produces many of the components in the equipment we use every day. Based on conversations with our partners, we anticipate that some prices will increase as much as 25% in the coming months. The first few categories to be affected will be those with electronic components, such as powered speakers, mixers, keyboards, and electronic drums.
We are working with our manufacturer partners to try to minimize rising gear costs for our customers as a result of these tariffs. However, while price increases will vary from brand to brand, it’s likely that most manufacturers will be affected. If there’s something you’ve been thinking about buying, our best advice is to get it now before the price goes up.
As we get more detailed information or become aware of additional increased prices, we will be sure to keep you updated.
FAQ
When will tariff-related price increases start to take place?
Likely before the end of the fourth quarter as our partners work through existing pre-tariff raw materials.
Will this affect other music gear categories?
Most likely every category will see some impact from this. We will, as always, keep you posted.
How big will the price increases be?
At this time, there is no reason to think that we’ll see anything beyond 25%.
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/new-tariffs-will-prices-go-gear-love/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=insync-promo&utm_content=insync-organic-post-tariff
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I fear there will be price gouging under the guise of tariffs. A 25% tariff on specific components doesn’t equate to a 25% increase in cost of finished product. It is like how gas stations will immediately raise the price of gas on bad news in the Middle East or bad weather in the Gulf of Mexico before there could be any real impact to their suppliers. Quick to go up before real crisis and slow to go down long after crisis.
I hope I’m wrong.
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I hope I’m wrong.
You’re not.
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I hope I’m wrong.
You’re not.
:'(
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I fear there will be price gouging under the guise of tariffs. A 25% tariff on specific components doesn’t equate to a 25% increase in cost of finished product. It is like how gas stations will immediately raise the price of gas on bad news in the Middle East or bad weather in the Gulf of Mexico before there could be any real impact to their suppliers. Quick to go up before real crisis and slow to go down long after crisis.
I hope I’m wrong.
This gas price example is the first thing I thought of, but the gouge only works if all the retailers remain in lock step. It seems the 90's/00's when Musicians Friend was much cheaper than Sweetwater, but Sweetwater gave much better support and customer service so could justify a higher price are long gone. All the major online suppliers (Sweetwater, Musicians Friend, Sam Ash, Guitar Center Online, all the misc Amazon 3rd party sellers, etc) appear to offer gear at almost the same exact same price regardless of how great or poor their customer service is. I don't think this is a coordinated effort by the retailers to not undercut each other, but they all sell at the manufacturers minimum allowed advertised price. In this case, it doesn't matter how much Sweetwater (or any retailer) works with their suppliers, the manufacturers will likely be the source of the gouging by raising their minimum allowable advertised price...in which case the retailers have no options and neither will we :(
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@WytchCrypt Yeah I wasn’t trying to put the blame on resellers like MF or SW with my gas example. I just worry that somewhere along the chain some may be tempted to take advantage.
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Absolutely. The gouging is most likely to happen at the manufacturer level.
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@WytchCrypt Yeah I wasn’t trying to put the blame on resellers like MF or SW with my gas example. I just worry that somewhere along the chain some may be tempted to take advantage.
No sweat ;) I think the gas example was great. Price goughing starts at the top, accelerates downhill passing through many hands and unfortunately us consumers are the end of the line :(
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With the gasoline example, there's also the issue of cash management. Gas is a low-to-no margin item for most gas stations. They make their money on the incidentals you buy or the repair service if they have one. So they jack up their price immediately so they have enough cash in hand to pay for the next shipment when it comes in at the higher price. They lower it more slowly because they never know when it's going to jump back up again, and they don't want to be caught flat-footed.
It's going to vary a lot more with synth companies. Some may keep a lot of cash on hand and can wait until their costs actually go up. Others may operate with much smaller margins and have to pump up prices now to afford the next batch of components and still be able to eat. And some may be very conservative and take the opportunity to increase prices so they keep a big cash margin to ride out drops in demand, and others may delay as long as possible to get one over on those who have raised their prices.
I doubt it's from a "let's screw the customer!" perspective, but it can easily look like it from outside.