The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Off Topic => Topic started by: Sacred Synthesis on June 20, 2018, 11:25:21 AM
-
The articles below will be of interest to some forum members. Whatever may be your opinion of Behringer, their products, and their methods, the fact is, they tried to sue DSI, and a number of us were to one degree or another at risk, due to posted comments.
There will presumably be no commenting on this thread from those mentioned, and that's both understandable and prudent. I'm not trying to stir up any further trouble over this. But seriously, the story has some frightening aspects to it and it should be told.
http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-have-sued-dave-smith-instruments-forum-posters-for-defamation/
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2018/06/20/that-time-behringer-sued-dave-smith-instruments-20-gearslutz-users-for-a-quarter-of-a-million-dollars/
http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-threatens-legal-action-against-a-site-that-called-it-a-copycat/
-
File under "Don't They Have Anything Better To Do?"
-
The story speaks for itself. There's hardly a need to add to it. A slew of expletives couldn't say it more bluntly than the bare facts.
-
The articles below will be of interest to some forum members. Whatever may be your opinion of Behringer, their products, and their methods, the fact is, they tried to sue DSI, and a number of us were to one degree or another at risk, due to posted comments.
There will presumably be no commenting on this thread from those mentioned, and that's both understandable and prudent. I'm not trying to stir up any further trouble over this. But seriously, the story has some frightening aspects to it and it should be told.
http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-have-sued-dave-smith-instruments-forum-posters-for-defamation/
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2018/06/20/that-time-behringer-sued-dave-smith-instruments-20-gearslutz-users-for-a-quarter-of-a-million-dollars/
http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-threatens-legal-action-against-a-site-that-called-it-a-copycat/
The damage is done. Dave Vs Goliath. Dave won again.
-
File under "Don't They Have Anything Better To Do?"
Good question! Maybe its about other things than just time?
This is of cause purely speculative but one could consider the actions one is willing to perform when being sued in order to avoid being towed into court. Imagine that the end result is that one is willing to perform actions such as editing existing conversations in own forums in order to avoid legal trouble. So even if the suing part is not going to win the lawsuit and that the suing part ends up spending a lot of money on lawyer expenses it could still end up having desirable effects depending on what the actual goals with the lawsuit are.
-
There goes my desire for anything Behringer brings out.
-
I'm thinking of a post by Carson on GS about a month ago:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13297646&postcount=1241 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13297646&postcount=1241)
To my understanding, Cool Audio did not disclose that they were owned by Behringer when we inquired with them directly. That was super great of them
We are actively moving away from using Cool Audio parts now that we know.
In light of the above I can only say I'm very glad, and that it makes me think even more highly of DSI. I don't want any of my money going to B.
-
I think Behringer did incredible damage to their recently rejuvenated brand with these law suits.
-
Does anyone have a list of the GS users that were listed in this action.
I don't seem to be able to access the documents for case CGC17559458 on https://sfsuperiorcourt.org/ I guess because I am not in the USA.
-
I think Behringer did incredible damage to their recently rejuvenated brand with these law suits.
It makes me think that they are depserate for money. Which is interesting because if you pause and think....all the stuff they announced they had no indication if any of it would go into production or timeframe if it did. So did they just announce all this stuff with no real capital behind it?
-
GearSlutz has already deleted the thread on this from their forum.
Google managed to grab a version for its cache before it was deleted: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SlsCj-0Jf_sJ:https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1220238-cdm-article-about-behringer-lawsuit-against-dsi-gearslutz-forum-members-2.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari
-
It makes me think that they are depserate for money. Which is interesting because if you pause and think....all the stuff they announced they had no indication if any of it would go into production or timeframe if it did. So did they just announce all this stuff with no real capital behind it?
I would recommend being open for multiple possible reasons for such lawsuits and consider if more than one of these could be relevant in this case.
-
I think Behringer did incredible damage to their recently rejuvenated brand with these law suits.
Yes, though the history of the MI industry is replete with these types of actions, by multiple instigators. And they always lose, eventually.
In general, we tend to be more sensitive to these things as (manufactured) musical instruments are intended to be expressive tools, recreational purchases, or what have you; they're ultimately not required for survival (or execution of that artistic instinct, as exhibited by those in the poorest world cultures who can make music with ordinary found or crafted natural objects).
We'd like them to be free and clear of any sort of negative context, so that we can enjoy them without looking over our shoulder. Unfortunately for Behringer / musictri.be, that effectively means that I cannot support their enterprise, in any reasonable way, shape or form, until things change at the top*.
As with anything, the best way to change the world is to follow your dollar / euro / pound as it travels along its path, supporting the folks that offer the best long-term value (not price) along the way. And if it means that I'm paying a little extra for a nice bike or a fine bottle of tequila for someone else, then count me in. It'll be worth the extra wait.
* - This is my personal opinion, is executed as such, and is ultimately unactionable. So there.
-
I think Behringer did incredible damage to their recently rejuvenated brand with these law suits
Definitely. The lawsuits show the striking contrast between the public face of the man and his behavior as a businessman. I don't think people will easily forget this affair.
The other more chilling effect is that the rest of us may feel prone to self-censorship, purely out of a fear of this sort of intimidation. I mean, why bother with public forums if you can't state some important unpleasant truths about products or a company - things that will help others assess their options. It was all instrumental in my deciding not to buy any of his products, and I'm grateful to have had the information provided by other people. Even if his instruments were inexpensive and of a satisfactory quality, still, I refuse to ever buy from a guy who behaves in such a litigious manner, period.
By contrast, I was highly critical of the Prophet 12 shortly after it first appeared, and for quite a while. I was really critical. No one from DSI warned me about my comments or threatened to remove my posts. I can't tell you how good they were to me, in spite of my negative posts. Behringer is in such another league from DSI.
-
More free advertising for him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Oi5jGnr2o
-
I had a small amount of respect for them until this.
The damage is done. Dave Vs Goliath. Dave won again.
The moniker "Goliath" is too good for them. I'd sooner use a quote from a great cartoon from the turn of the century named Invader Zim: "You're a hideous blog of stolen organs!"
-
The moniker "Goliath" is too good for them. I'd sooner use a quote from a great cartoon from the turn of the century named Invader Zim: "You're a hideous blog of stolen organs!"
You forgot to add "in my subjective opinion."
-
The moniker "Goliath" is too good for them. I'd sooner use a quote from a great cartoon from the turn of the century named Invader Zim: "You're a hideous blog of stolen organs!"
You forgot to add "in my subjective opinion."
Behringer makes shit. Have been doing so for years.
About a two decade ago, I was considering a Behringer mixer... my trusted Sweetwater rep warned me about their build quality and components. Specifically, he told me I wouldn’t like the “noise to signal” ratio.
I trusted his advice. He is still my Sweetwater rep. I have still never bought anything made by Behringer.
-
The moniker "Goliath" is too good for them. I'd sooner use a quote from a great cartoon from the turn of the century named Invader Zim: "You're a hideous blog of stolen organs!"
You forgot to add "in my subjective opinion."
Heheh, yes, I think JV has no control over that IP/content and Nickelodeon don't seem to care what happens to it, but just to be safe I should correctly attribute the quote to Dib and also add the following disclaimer: The statement in my previous post is an opinion and subject to the whims of my daily mood swing/shuffle setting. It is not reflective of the opinions or beliefs of the forum owner or operators.
It's interesting to note that Behringer have been taken to court over and over again, lost a few times but mostly have got out of any damages. So I'd think they do have lawyers who understand the law well enough to get around laws (such as circuit schematics not falling under copyright) and would have walked into court knowing full well they are going to be kicked out, especially when the majority of the defendants are nothing more than usernames from a forum with a fairly offensive title.
I think Behringer did incredible damage to their recently rejuvenated brand with these law suits
Definitely. The lawsuits show the striking contrast between the public face of the man and his behavior as a businessman. I don't think people will easily forget this affair.
The other more chilling effect is that the rest of us may feel prone to self-censorship, purely out of a fear of this sort of intimidation. I mean, why bother with public forums if you can't state some important unpleasant truths about products or a company - things that will help others assess their options. It was all instrumental in my deciding not to buy any of his products, and I'm grateful to have had the information provided by other people. Even if his instruments were inexpensive and of a satisfactory quality, still, I refuse to ever buy from a guy who behaves in such a litigious manner, period.
By contrast, I was highly critical of the Prophet 12 shortly after it first appeared, and for quite a while. I was really critical. No one from DSI warned me about my comments or threatened to remove my posts. I can't tell you how good they were to me, in spite of my negative posts. Behringer is in such another league from DSI.
That's all this is in the end; an attempt to censor that which they don't like. I mean GS have been around yonks so are able to support themselves, but I don't think if Behringer tried to lean on them directly and only them that they would have been able to afford to defend. Tried and tested tactic is to just appeal your foe into bankruptcy. Money, money, money......
-
Tried and tested tactic is to just appeal your foe into bankruptcy. Money, money, money......
Sad way to "compete". I have the feeling that "business" and "ethics" are not always very good friends but there ought to be limits to how far such tactics can be taken. Hopefully there are markets with more sensible rules that allows such techniques to be stopped firmly.
-
The thing is Behringers strategy works, on GS any post about this legal case is deleted, most posts criticising Behringer are deleted leaving mostly positive stuff remaining.
GS obviously don't want to upset them in anyway, maybe they haven't got $100,000 hanging around for legal costs.
Also search for "Behringer DSI" on google, not many sites are going with this story.
-
The "interesting" thing is that its hard to make a market work properly if such tactics are in use. So one could wonder if there are ways to limit such behavior via market regulation. Maybe not in the states but one could hope it could be the case in more regulated areas.
-
The thing is Behringers strategy works, on GS any post about this legal case is deleted, most posts criticising Behringer are deleted leaving mostly positive stuff remaining.
It's true. In that sense, Behringer actually won this case. Uli may be many things, but he's not dumb. He's very shrewd.
-
Tried and tested tactic is to just appeal your foe into bankruptcy. Money, money, money......
Sad way to "compete". I have the feeling that "business" and "ethics" are not always very good friends but there ought to be limits to how far such tactics can be taken. Hopefully there are markets with more sensible rules that allows such techniques to be stopped firmly.
I once saw a book in a store window entitled "Ethics of Business". I laughed so hard that day.
The thing is Behringers strategy works, on GS any post about this legal case is deleted, most posts criticising Behringer are deleted leaving mostly positive stuff remaining.
To be fair they should delete every mention of the trolling company and their products. Remove them from their (well used) data base also. What's good for the goose and all....
-
That would be the fairest way to deal with this. If Uli wants to threaten little people with lawsuits and so badly affect the spirit of the forums, then he should be banned from them. And if all that remains of the concerned GS thread is edited happy-clappy twaddle, then it misrepresents the facts and fails to advise people. Delete it all and forbid the problem from posting again. That would be my personal solution.
-
....most posts criticising Behringer are deleted leaving mostly positive stuff remaining.
I want to test this...
-
After some soul searching, read Uli's point of view and followed the Gearslutz saga etc, I cancelled my Neutron order yesterday. I will be keeping the DM12D, money already spent and principles set aside for that one. But this is it, I will not buy any more Behringer equipment.
Anyway, DSI has made it easier for me to steer away from Eurorack for the time being. I need a year at least so save for the Prophet X. Which, I believe is very much my kind of instrument: cinematic, deep sound design, many modulation possibilities and sampling. Kind of what I am trying to build in my current studio setup with the Akai, Rev2, Evolver and several outboard rack effect units. But of course the Akai doesn't have analogue filters.
All this second had stuff, except the new Rev2, still cost me less than 1/5 of the price of an X .... pheew.
P.S. My favorite shop in the Netherlands won't suffer to much as I ordered a professional microphone + stand instead ;)
-
Behringer makes shit. Have been doing so for years.
About a two decade ago, I was considering a Behringer mixer... my trusted Sweetwater rep warned me about their build quality and components. Specifically, he told me I wouldn’t like the “noise to signal” ratio.
I trusted his advice. He is still my Sweetwater rep. I have still never bought anything made by Behringer.
My band owned a Behringer PA for exactly three practices before it literally started pouring smoke
-
So then, it was a combination PA/smoke show. Now if it caught on fire, it was also a light show. Great all-in-one deal!
-
https://youtu.be/XchwE9zVdnw (https://youtu.be/XchwE9zVdnw)