The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Off Topic => Topic started by: Paul Dither on January 21, 2016, 05:32:33 PM
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I know it's still a bit early, but I was just curious what your conclusions are so far.
For me the biggest surprises are the OB6 (although most of us interpreted the teaser correctly) and the Arturia MatrixBrute. Another surprise was that Moog didn't announce anything more - I guess I was expecting a Voyager successor. In general, I have to say that it was probably wise from Korg to announce their Minilogue early.
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In general, I have to say that it was probably wise from Korg to announce their Minilogue early.
Exactly… who could have thought that the minilogue would turn out to be one of the less exciting new instruments? Still very interesting, but not as much as OB-6 and the MatrixBrute. I'm also amazed by the new OP-2x series by Teenage Engineering; as soon as it's available in my local store I'll go get the OP-20 Arcade at least.
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Forgot about the OP. Yes, definitely another surprise.
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Conclusions? Analog continues to roar back into the mainstream as the major makers seek to solidify their claims on various pricing strata, with DSI going "Make no mistake about us being high-end." Will an aging stable of lower-cost DSI instruments like the X4 even be able to withstand the Minilogue onslaught? It probably doesn't even matter anymore.
Also, not all new products are announced at NAMM. While it's surprising that Moog hasn't announced a Voyager replacement, maybe it's already been around for a while as the Sub37. They can't seem to build enough of those instruments, so they have the luxury of analyzing the market for a while. And they probably suspected that the Dave and Tom show was going to straight pwn the weekend.
One of my favorite new products (and I don't know whether it was announced today, or I just noticed it today) is the Korg nanoKEY Studio. A little Bluetooth combination micro keyboard-slash-control surface could be a fun road warrior combo with Gadget. I haven't totally fallen in love with Gadget, but it's good enough to keep trying.
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So far, I'm disappointed with Korg and Moog, impressed with Arturia, and thrilled with DSI. Although I like the Prophet 6, I'm immediately impressed with the OB-6 to a degree I wasn't with the P6. We've heard a mere three or four videos of the OB-6 so far, and already it's obvious that the sound is exceptional.
Of course, soon NAMM will be over, the mental dust will settle, and we'll all get logical again. It will be interesting to see who buys what. But obviously, DSI is going in my kind of direction. The funny thing is, I was considering a Prophet 6/SEM combination. It's already been done in the new instrument. But I need to read more about the stereo aspects.
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Well... my conclusion is that I'm going to be saving a lot of money. There were lots of exiting new good sounding synths, but none who offered anything revolutionarily new, exept maybe the MatrixBrute, but the low price it has, has made quite a few people worry that it's build may be compromized... will just have to wait and see what the impressions are.
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Another surprise (at least to me) is the Korg Volca FM 6-Operator synth. Usual Volca layout and (motion) sequencing, but with a full DX7 implementation, albeit only three-voice polyphony. Interesting mapping of the most crucial parameters to the few knobs which drastically simplifies sound editing, while retaining full compatibility with all pre-existing DX7 patches which can be loaded onto this thing.
Nice to see the return of FM; first in the Korg Gadget app, then the 4-Op Yamaha Reface and now this and the Montage. Will people be using it, though, with all the analog goodies out now?
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Another surprise (at least to me) is the Korg Volca FM 6-Operator synth.
Wait, wait, what now? How the heck did I miss this? I was specifically looking for new Korg stuff just yesterday.
but the low price it has, has made quite a few people worry that it's build may be compromized... will just have to wait and see what the impressions are.
You'd want to see some reports before buying, but there's probably no need to worry that much. The build quality of the MicroBrute is one of the reasons I wanted it. The case doesn't flex, the knobs and sliders are solid, the whole thing is put together pretty well for the price point.
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If that Volca FM thing had an analog filter per voice, as an extra, I'd have been all over it.... but as only a digital synth with 3 voices... no thanx :) ... I'll do with the P12 FM capabilities.
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If that Volca FM thing had an analog filter per voice, as an extra, I'd have been all over it.... but as only a digital synth with 3 voices... no thanx :) ... I'll do with the P12 FM capabilities.
Each Volca is like a Greek hero, with one stand-out, killer feature and one boneheaded, crippling flaw. The FM Volca's stand-out feature is that it's compatible with DX7 sysex files, suggesting that its FM implementation is at least as complete as the DX7's. Whether it's worthwhile in light of other options (like some pretty incredible iOS FM synths) is a YMMV thing. I'm seriously mulling it over, but I always remember that an FM synth is basically a soft synth, and do I really need it as a hardware instrument.
Of all the stuff at NAMM, it's not the best, but it does win the "most likely to be bought by me" award.
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DSI going "Make no mistake about us being high-end."
Good point! Its sad to see and the reason why my confidence in DSI being an interesting supplier of well sounding complex voices in a manageable price range is steadily declining. Fine with going for the high end as they got the experience and tools to make it happen. In fact I want them to do that. But if they are not willing to make an effort to serve more affordable slices of their signature products then their mass appeal drops significantly over time.
Another thing with being a high end only supplier is the irony of their sysex specifications being incomplete and their software updates being served noticeably slowly. If going high end only then quality matters on all fronts and great charm cannot do it alone.
. o O ( the intricate art of being honest )
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On a more constructive topic Modal Electronics went eurorack at this NAMM:
https://youtu.be/cNzA9BHrf5I?t=14s
Classic Emu features have returned in form of Rossum Electro-Music:
https://youtu.be/RQUZewgqFD8?t=14s
Both looks interesting!
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Wait, wait, what now? How the heck did I miss this? I was specifically looking for new Korg stuff just yesterday.
Same here! I specifically checked out Korg's New Products page and did not find it there. Instead I saw it on Sonicstate's YouTube channel…
but I always remember that an FM synth is basically a soft synth, and do I really need it as a hardware instrument.
FM is in principle just software, but the specific hardware implementation on the DX7 and related instruments is riddled with peculiarities that are non-trivial and do have a pronounced effect on sound. Just take a look at this GS thread on that topic (it gets interesting on the second page): https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/897756-only-reason-people-prefer-sound-dx7-fm8.html
How faithful will this Volca FM be?
Of all the stuff at NAMM, it's not the best, but it does win the "most likely to be bought by me" award.
My award goes to the OP-20, hands down. One of the things I like about the DX7 is its immense capability of expression, which is lost without at least velocity and a few more voices. But I don't know, this Volca FM still seems intriguing, even though the only Volca that I see personal need for is the Beats, which I've already bought. The sequencing on these is really fun and seems to be the main selling point besides their compact size, but I wouldn't use it as much as to justify buying them.
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Another surprise (at least to me) is the Korg Volca FM 6-Operator synth. Usual Volca layout and (motion) sequencing, but with a full DX7 implementation, albeit only three-voice polyphony. Interesting mapping of the most crucial parameters to the few knobs which drastically simplifies sound editing, while retaining full compatibility with all pre-existing DX7 patches which can be loaded onto this thing.
It's definitely a slap in the (Re)face. I'd be interested if one can poly-chain the Volca FM.
As for FM, the Montage's 8-op engine looks nice as well. If only they would separate that engine from the rest.
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For all that missed it, the Volca FM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6JYELE0aVA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6JYELE0aVA)
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For me DSI wins with the OB-6. I asked support if they had any plans to release a monophonic version called OB-1 (just for the name :D) but they had no plans yet.
The Matrixbrute was a bigger surprise, though, but I am only curious about it until I have seen it and know that it works and sound good.
Oh, I like the look of the new Doepfer modules in the "vintage" style but I still try to resist the urge to start with modulars.
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On a more constructive topic Modal Electronics went eurorack at this NAMM:
https://youtu.be/cNzA9BHrf5I?t=14s
Classic Emu features have returned in form of Rossum Electro-Music:
https://youtu.be/RQUZewgqFD8?t=14s
Both looks interesting!
Missed the Modal stuff, thanks for the link.
The Emu Z plane is on my want list!
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The Rossum modules look great and it's almost unbelievable what Modul Electronics have released already in their short history.
Something else I'm quite interested in is this one (and not only because they chained it to a Pro 2): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3SH_RyxkNg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3SH_RyxkNg)
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I was quite surprised and disappointed that DSI did not issue a Sequential monophonic synthesizer of some configuration - mono, duo, para, etc. I still think it may be coming. With the large staff that Dave now has and the number of instruments being retired, I would expect a new instrument to come out within the next six months or so. I don't think winter NAMM will remain the only time each year when they announce new pieces.
The build-up to NAMM is always exciting, but I'm also glad when it's over. One day or so, and I've had enough of all the marketing and hype. A couple of days of relentless bouncing back and forth between the various synth sites and forums to gather up all the available news and information, and I'm done with it. Whew! It's good to get back to the ordinary.
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Words of wisdom, Sacred Synthesis.
I'm still somehow baffled by the OB-6, though. Mainly because if I were Dave, I'd be concerned about whether this release will affect Prophet-6 sales. Sonically, they're totally different instruments, sure. But at the same time two instruments have never been that close in the DSI/Sequential catalog - at least not in terms of features. That aspect is probably what's most unexpected to me.
I do agree that we are probably going to see something else before the next Winter NAMM takes place. For quite a few people (myself included) I truly hope that it's going to be a bit more affordable than the recent products.
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Words of wisdom, Sacred Synthesis.
I'm still somehow baffled by the OB-6, though. Mainly because if I were Dave, I'd be concerned about whether this release will affect Prophet-6 sales. Sonically, they're totally different instruments, sure. But at the same time two instruments have never been that close in the DSI/Sequential catalog - at least not in terms of features. That aspect is probably what's most unexpected to me.
I do agree that we are probably going to see something else before the next Winter NAMM takes place. For quite a few people (myself included) I truly hope that it's going to be a bit more affordable than the recent products.
Oh, the OB-6 will definitely take a bite out of Prophet 6 sales. I thought that right away. (And that's why Dave needs you to buy a Prophet 6 as soon as possible!) The two instruments are practically mirror images of each other. It's obvious the same physical chassis was used.
Dave has obviously shifted to mid to high-end keyboard synthesizers with complimentary modules. That's a change for DSI for certain. It's anybody's guess whether or not he'll offer another individual instrument in small affordable module form. I suspect the difference is due to company growth. When he was alone, he produced the Evolver Desktop, and when he later had just a few employees, he developed the Mopho, beginning with the module (and obviously extracted from the P'08). Now he's nearly got a medium-sized company for himself, and I'd say with all those brains wondering around the office, the ideas are flowing. This probably tends towards the development of larger more sophisticated instruments.
I don't know - has Dave moved on from those little comparatively inexpensive modules? I hope not.
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I hope not completely. It can also be a good challange to create something intriguing, but yet affordable (see Evolver Desktop).
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"Don't cannibalize your own products" was conventional wisdom in business for such a long time that people have internalized it. But among other things, the OB-6 shows that Dave Smith keeps up with his business theory, which now holds that cannibalizing your own products is actually the right thing to do, as doing so can reach new markets (or, probably in the case of synths, new market niches). It doesn't matter to DSI that the OB-6 might cut into Prophet 6 sales, as long as they anticipate the demand and manage the inventory properly for each instrument. On the contrary, it's a pretty brilliant move.
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I don't know - has Dave moved on from those little modules?
My guess (and, disclaimer, this is only a crazy guess) is that we haven't seen inexpensive stuff from DSI for a while because they're doing due diligence and/or negotiation with one or more offshore manufacturers. They can afford to build the "jewels" in the U.S.A.; but now that the analog market is blowing up, it's probably really hard to be price-competitive by manufacturing, say, the Mopho brick in the U.S.A.
So (still in guess mode) we'll see new mid-priced instruments from DSI at some point, but they'll be made in China or Malaysia, etc.
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Is Dave's strategy genius or is it whim? I don't know, but it sure seems to be working. He seems to be the right guy doing the right thing at the right time.
When I began to consider getting back into synthesis seven years ago, I had no choice but to start out cold. I didn't know a thing about modern instruments and what was available, or even what companies were still in business. So, I searched online for months and became totally frustrated by what I found - mostly bland looking keyboards with little character and minimal parameters. But three instruments stood out - the Voyager, the Poly Evolver Keyboard, and the Prophet '08.
Since then, the synthesizer market has exploded with instruments galore - one after another that I would be thrilled to have. This winter's NAMM has added yet another cluster of pearls. For whatever reasons, the synthesizer domain is headed in the very direction I would like it to. I now see so many fine-sounding, parameter-ridden, wood-cheeked, and character-full instruments that could meet my musical interests for years to come, so that now the frustration comes from trying to choose between them all! I like what I already have, and I like what I see coming out.
I don't know if we're in the midst of a short-lived analog revival that might begin to fade in a few more years. I suppose it's bound to reach a saturation point. But it's also possible that there's something deeper to it, that serious musicians are finding these instruments far more satisfying to play and program than software in a little box controlled by a generic MIDI keyboard and a work-related computer screen. I'm just as glad as can be to have all these beautiful new analog instruments available, just when I needed them. Thanks, Dave (and Tom)!
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"Don't cannibalize your own products" was conventional wisdom in business for such a long time that people have internalized it. But among other things, the OB-6 shows that Dave Smith keeps up with his business theory, which now holds that cannibalizing your own products is actually the right thing to do, as doing so can reach new markets (or, probably in the case of synths, new market niches). It doesn't matter to DSI that the OB-6 might cut into Prophet 6 sales, as long as they anticipate the demand and manage the inventory properly for each instrument. On the contrary, it's a pretty brilliant move.
Good point, chysn. And yes, if the Prophet-6 was indeed the best selling instrument by DSI/Sequential, it wouldn't even matter if they couldn't sell them anymore as long as the OB-6 would do almost as good or even better. Because once an instrument is well received from its introduction on, the sales will peak in the first year anyway, i.e. when all is still new and fresh.
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Here's my experience in a nutshell.
Yamaha's booth (in a separate building from the rest of the show) was as my friendly succinctly put it, was more like a museum exhibit.
Roland's synth area was too loud to think as it seems to have been catering to DJ's. Their new modular stuff was fascinating on paper, but in reality it was just confusing as their modules, to me, seem very poorly labelled. I have some modular gear and got to check out a lot of modular stuff but have never felt so lost! In my opinion, the coolest thing they showed was their V-Accordion, which I was told has polyphonic aftertouch and can control all kinds of synth sounds at once (internal or external). Much to my surprise, it's something that's been around for over 10 years!! The fact that you can split the buttons, play something from the keyboard (w/ velocity and aftertouch) and also play a different patch with the bellows was fascinating to me. Talk about potential!
Korg's new synth seems very interesting. It seems like it might be something that could replace my MS2000... and with a smaller footprint as well! However, I'm not the biggest fan of the Volca's because frankly the form factor is TOO small for my taste. I really do like FM and find it ironic that even though it is that small, it still offers more controls than most of the classic Yamaha FM synths.
DSI's Prophet 6 and OB-6 are really cool. I'm not sure which I like better... the OB-6 seems to have a really good handle on choir-like sounds. The filters are really sharp and offer a lot of the sounds I like to use my MS2000 for. Incidentally, playing with the Tempests on display made me realize that the pots and buttons on mine have definitely been worn in ;).
Moog, as everyone has pointed out, didn't have anything new, but they easily had the most appealing looking booth!
As far as new modular goes, (as usual) I liked Intellijel the most. The Rainmaker is insanely cool if not for its KS capabilities alone. I also really enjoyed Doepfer's Clock Multiplier/Ratcheting module-- but I guess that's been available for a little while now.
Arturia's Matrixbrute was the most impressive looking new synth by far. It seems as though there are some bugs that need to be worked out. I like the dual filters, but think that when setting up a patch, it should default to one of them instead of making the user select one... as non selection will not allow sound to get to the outputs. The matrix itself is a great idea as it is much cleaner than a bunch of patch cables. I'm really interested in how it functions as a sequencer. However, it is quite big and I think I get lost a little easily in it!
I was hoping to see more synthesizer controllers, as well as more hardware synthesizers that could take advantage of them. What I did see that interested me was the Linnstrument, Fishman Triple Play, the Roli Seaboard Rise, and the Zoom ARQ. KMI's keyboard wasn't nearly as nice as Roli's, which was quite a sensual (LOL) experience. Ultimately, the shortcoming of those types of controllers, however, is the fact that the resolution of the X, Y, and Z axes change depending on whether you are playing a 'white' or 'black' key. This is why I like the Linnstrument the best, although the Seaboard definitely feels really cool. KMI also had a prototype drum pad that supposedly might have CV available. I think a multi-dimensional, low cost drum pad with CV is long overdue! Zoom's ARQ has some really interesting potential, but there are a few things about it that confuse me, especially the fact that the ratcheting (kind of like the Tempest's Roll) feature is only available via the base unit and not via the ring portion. The accelerometer works really well. The Jamstik also had an accelerometer, but it left a lot to be desired due to the low fret count as well as the fact that it was not responsive at all (at least to my playing!). Conversely, the Fishman Triple Play pickup seems ideal for me, a guitar player, because I can just attach it to my existing guitars and have at it. I thought the fact that it uses Bluetooth was icing on the cake. My only problem with it has to do with the fact that to use it to control external synthesizers, an extra $200 unit has to be purchased, nearly doubling its cost! I thought that some kind of basic wind controller, like the kind that Yamaha used to make (that could be connected to one's instrument of choice, would've been nice. Again, Roland's V-Accordion was, next to the Linnstrument and Roli Seaboard Rise, the most impressive synth controller!
I also naively expected some kind of CV or synth-controlled lighting this year. The closest thing to it was Teenage Engineering's OP-Z and Zoom's ARQ. The OP-Z's 'video synthesizer' I thought was really cool. My biggest concern is that if the user is not given enough creativity as far as the video synthesizer portion of it goes, then it will ultimately be a gimmick. As for the Zoom, while other people have said it looks gimmicky, I think it has a lot of potential for YouTubers and DJ's. I'm very interested in it!
I'm sure there's a bunch that I overlooked, but that is my general impression of this year's NAMM.
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Speaking of OB-6 eating prophet-6 sales, even if that happened, the total sales of both combined will be bigger than that of prophet-6 alone, so it'll be no problem for DSI.
I also agree that Zoom's new ARQ seems very intriguing, so free from any other conventional musical instrument design.
I hope to get a chance to play both the OB-6 and the ARQ with its ring controller soon.
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@Steven:
Concerning the Tripleplay these work:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenton-Electronics-MIDI-USB-Host-INTERFACE-DEMO-PERFECT-CIRCUIT-/291664073096?hash=item43e8889188:g:rVoAAOSw9N1Vt9lJ
You can pick them up cheaper than an Iconnectmidi4 that also works, and I have some idea maybe that the iconnectmidi1 may work, you can pick these up very cheaply. Worth a check on the inter web first though...
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Speaking of OB-6 eating prophet-6 sales, even if that happened, the total sales of both combined will be bigger than that of prophet-6 alone, so it'll be no problem for DSI.
Unless Tom Oberheim is getting a cut, which must be the case.
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@Steven:
Concerning the Tripleplay these work:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenton-Electronics-MIDI-USB-Host-INTERFACE-DEMO-PERFECT-CIRCUIT-/291664073096?hash=item43e8889188:g:rVoAAOSw9N1Vt9lJ
You can pick them up cheaper than an Iconnectmidi4 that also works, and I have some idea maybe that the iconnectmidi1 may work, you can pick these up very cheaply. Worth a check on the inter web first though...
Awesome info :). Thank you very much-- that lowers the cost of the system quite a bit!
I'd love to try the Triple Play with the Tempest. I'm not sure, but I get the feeling that having individual control of each note requires 6 independent MIDI channels though... I really hope that someday the Tempest could do that.
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Yep, the tempest is no good.
I have put in a request for 6 channels many years ago but it hasn't happened yet!
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One unexpected NAMM outcome is that Tom Oberheim is back on the synthesist's map. I realize that his SEMs and Two-Voice Pro have their devotees, but the OB-6 has put him in the limelight to a much greater degree. I'm hoping that there's much more to come from him.
I had been thinking about Oberheim synthesizers and admiring their distinctive filter sound for about a year. Although I'd be thrilled to get a Two-Voice Pro, I couldn't afford the $3,500 price tag for what is essentialy a monophonic instrument with a minimal length keyboard. However, the appearance of the OB-6 has convinced me that the Oberheim sound is just what I've been hoping for. But, the keyboard length is definitely an issue.
Tom is saying that his new SEM Plus Module design will form the basis of his future instruments. This probably refers to his Marion Systems products, but perhaps it could also result in another DSI collaboration. Anyway, Oberheim is back, and I hope to God that this results in a full-sized Oberheim eight-voice instrument. Nothing less will satisfy.
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I miss all the chatter we used to have this time of the year about NAMM. Wondering if anyone saw something they really like.
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I miss all the chatter we used to have this time of the year about NAMM. Wondering if anyone saw something they really like.
I've always been a bit oblivious about NAMM etc, but it's been a treat drifting thought this thread in all its 2016 P6 vs OB6 glory! I miss Sacred Synthesis and Razmo, right?
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I miss all the chatter we used to have this time of the year about NAMM. Wondering if anyone saw something they really like.
Sadly the day I sold my P6, my PX bricked and sent me into a deep funk mentally. I was excited about the Korg Wavestate, Modwave, OPSix Desktop modules but now I’m actually considering selling all my gear and just moving on to another hobby. I’ve already lost 3 soundtrack gigs I was using the PX on. Even had to pay back the deposits.
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I miss all the chatter we used to have this time of the year about NAMM. Wondering if anyone saw something they really like.
Sadly the day I sold my P6, my PX bricked and sent me into a deep funk mentally. I was excited about the Korg Wavestate, Modwave, OPSix Desktop modules but now I’m actually considering selling all my gear and just moving on to another hobby. I’ve already lost 3 soundtrack gigs I was using the PX on. Even had to pay back the deposits.
No chance of renting one?
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I've always been a bit oblivious about NAMM etc, but it's been a treat drifting thought this thread in all its 2016 P6 vs OB6 glory! I miss Sacred Synthesis and Razmo, right?
No doubt. R.I.P. Raz, but I sort of expected Sacred Synthesis to be back by now. He's always come back before.
Yamaha had a new thing I found interesting, some sort of OP-1 competitor, of which there aren't nearly enough.
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I miss all the chatter we used to have this time of the year about NAMM. Wondering if anyone saw something they really like.
Sadly the day I sold my P6, my PX bricked and sent me into a deep funk mentally. I was excited about the Korg Wavestate, Modwave, OPSix Desktop modules but now I’m actually considering selling all my gear and just moving on to another hobby. I’ve already lost 3 soundtrack gigs I was using the PX on. Even had to pay back the deposits.
No chance of renting one?
Nope. Sold all my guitars too. My guitars are gone, my Prophets are gone and my dad’s gone.
So I’ve been on a music fasting for the past few days. Haven’t actively listened to a single piece of music at all. Just ASMR sounds and truth be told, I’m actually enjoying it. I can mentally focus on things more clearly and suddenly the pressure of doing anything musically creative is gone. I was at the studio and I didn’t feel like I had to rush to record anything. I just spent the day with my dogs and felt so at ease.
Will the PX get repaired? Hopefully. But if it doesn’t, I actually feel I can just trash it, sell my drum machines and be mentally okay with the decision to move on to something else like writing.
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I am very sorry to hear of your loss. Wishing you all the best.