The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet => Prophet 12 => Topic started by: Sacred Synthesis on February 11, 2018, 01:11:59 PM
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For the one month I spent with a borrowed Prophet 12 last summer, I had only so much success designing a fairly realistic choir patch. On the other hand, The Poly Evolver Keyboard produce an excellent choir sound. As I consider which instrument to buy next, I'm re-assessing the P12 and wondering whether or not it could replace an eight-voice PEK. Has anybody designed an excellent P12 choir patch? Audio samples?
My Prophet 12 choir patch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZVA7TfI3nE
My Poly Evolver Keyboard choir patches:
https://youtu.be/pN904q28eQw?t=6m9s
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Hi
I've designed a choir sound I put in this demo (the third one, starting at 1'55). Be aware that there's no FX and I haven't used your techniques of stereo recording (so I can do sounds if you wanna :)
https://soundcloud.com/thedisease/prophet-12-old-school-sounds-part-3
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Thanks, Mr. Kay. Those were excellent patches in general, including the choir sound, but not quite what I'm looking for. It lacks that distinctive throaty quality that comes partly from the filter, but just as much from the waveshape itself. The Evolver has several of these, and they make or break the sound. Either an instrument has them, or it doesn't.
My impression of the Prophet 12 is the same as it was last summer. For my purposes - and very surprisingly - it serves better as an analog synthesizer, rather than as a digital wavetable type. Hence, it's much more in competition with the Prophet '08/Rev2 than the Poly Evolver. The PEK still strikes me as having the digital edge.
Choir patches, anybody else?
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Thanks, Mr. Kay. Those were excellent patches in general, including the choir sound, but not quite what I'm looking for. It lacks that distinctive throaty quality that comes partly from the filter, but perhaps even more from the waveshape itself. The Evolver has several of these, and they make or break the sound. Either an instrument has them, or it doesn't.
I'd say that's a safe bet, if you can identify the waves in question that are missing from the Prophet-12 for your application.
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I'm obviously not able to make a P12/PEK side-by-side comparison. But you're right, it does come down to the simple fact of either having or lacking the right waveshapes. However, the P12 has more sound-shaping resources, so I'm still hoping these can compensate.
The Evolver offers waveshapes with these short descriptions:
#17: Oohh
#18: Eehh
#40: Aahh Fem
#41: Aahh Hom
#42: Aahh Bass
#43: Reg Vox
#44: VOCAL 1 (Detune oscs using either wave to bring out the vocal)
#45: VOCAL 2 (Detune oscs using either wave to bring out the vocal)
#46: Hi Aahh
That's a hearty selection of waveshapes for designing various vocal sounds, which is why the Poly Evolver/Prophet VS pair makes an especially fine source for this tonal category. I'd even say these two instruments surpass the Behringer VC340 Vocoder and the Roland Vocoder Plus VP-330 on which it's based. The Roland never especially impressed me with its choir sound, and seemed to require much reverb and preferably a full mix of other instruments as well in order to seem at all convincing.
I'm still holding out for the Prophet 12, if anybody can offer a choir patch audio sample. If not, then in my case, a P12 needs the support of a PEK, which is a very valuable bit of information to have gained.
Roland Vocoder Plus:
https://youtu.be/zkKm7VydYfU?t=11s
Prophet VS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUqZvhO_TeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNkVy0Nh8Gk
PEK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIN0sthfksg
Emulator:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BM_S7DOn5A
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Hmmm, I wonder if the Korg Prologue can produce a decent choir patch. Anybody know?
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Thanks, Mr. Kay. Those were excellent patches in general, including the choir sound, but not quite what I'm looking for. It lacks that distinctive throaty quality that comes partly from the filter, but just as much from the waveshape itself. The Evolver has several of these, and they make or break the sound. Either an instrument has them, or it doesn't.
Well... I was actually trying to reproduce a Simple Minds sound and during years, my classic patches were often sawtooh or sines and filter full open :P
But to get close to the PEK/VS tablewaves on the P'12, it's necessary to dig, I guess mixing tablewaves and using sligth decimations, not easy to say, 'never touched a VS and a PEK twice in my life in a store.
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Is it just me, or is a synthesized choir emulation not one of the most standard synthesizer patches, right along with strings, brass, organ, ethereal pads, and other basic sounds? I'm surprised this isn't a simple issue to resolve. It's like asking Rev2 owners if the instrument can produce pulse width modulation, and seemingly no one knowing for certain. I've asked this question before with the same resultant crickets. So, because the choir sound is a fairly simple one to design and requires only standard synthesis elements, starting with the quintessential waveshape, I'm going to conclude that the only DSI synthesizer that can produce an excellent choir patch is the Poly Evolver. Do any of you P12 owners disagree?
At least in my case, this is a decisive piece of information.
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I haven't got a chance to try that yet Sacred Synthesis. The P12 is still new to me but I'm confident (and as the other gentleman suggested) that by altering the P12's digital shapes slightly and blending with the other oscillators something good will come about for that classic choir sound. You are probably correct about the PEK being a more direct instrument for achieving this sound however.
Unfortunately I've never been that good at making choirs though I like making voice sounds. That led me to buy a Roland VP8 canned choir a few years ago, which I got tired of very quickly. So back to the synth pathway. In my most recent endeavor was on the PEK using my own voice as a wave shape. That produced decent results.
Come to think of it, I think Pro2 has a decent choir voice on one of the presets. If I'm correct about that, then P12 should be equally capable. I'll look around at this next time I get a chance.
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I appreciate it, Soundquest.
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So, because the choir sound is a fairly simple one to design and requires only standard synthesis elements, starting with the quintessential waveshape, I'm going to conclude that the only DSI synthesizer that can produce an excellent choir patch is the Poly Evolver. Do any of you P12 owners disagree?
How do you make a standard choir? :P
Actually, I never really tried seriously on the P'12 because that's simply not the kind of sounds I program the most and there are very good built-in choir waveshapes in my old Korg Karma.
And I looked at your examples, sometimes, that's actually samples (the one of the Emulator is famous) and on some other machines, there are internal chorus effects, so I'm not sure of what does what.
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I realize I gave a mixed bag of choir examples in the above post, especially with the Emulator. But they provided audio samples of what I mean by a synthesized choir patch. And I emphasize the word synthesized. I'm not attempting to fool anyone into believing such a patch is an actual choir. No, it's very much a synthesized version of the sound that I mean, and especially in the lower male bass/baritone range.
In general, a classic choir patch is no more difficult to design than a string patch. The key is to start off with the right waveshape. From there, it's an ordinary matter of carefully setting the oscillator tuning, filter, modulation, and envelope. Plus, the keyboard range has to effect the cut off frequency.
I'm sorry to keep giving my own example, but it shows exactly what I'm after from the Prophet 12 and exactly what the Poly Evolver can do. So, this patch is what I would need to achieve or ideally surpass on a P12:
https://youtu.be/pN904q28eQw?t=6m9s
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I realize I gave a mixed bag of choir examples in the above post, especially with the Emulator. But they provided audio samples of what I mean by a synthesized choir patch. And I emphasize the word synthesized. I'm not attempting to fool anyone into believing such a patch is an actual choir. No, it's very much a synthesized version of the sound that I mean, and especially in the lower male bass/baritone range.
In general, a classic choir patch is no more difficult to design than a string patch. The key is to start off with the right waveshape. From there, it's an ordinary matter of carefully setting the oscillator tuning, filter, modulation, and envelope. Plus, the keyboard range has to effect the cut off frequency.
I'm sorry to keep giving my own example, but it shows exactly what I'm after from the Prophet 12 and exactly what the Poly Evolver can do. So, this patch is what I would need to achieve or ideally surpass on a P12:
https://youtu.be/pN904q28eQw?t=6m9s
Loud and clear - what you're after is a vocal formant waveshape that doesn't sound like a sample (more mellow). The Prophet-12 waveshapes are definitely more pronounced.
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The Prophet 12 has two waveshapes that were presumably chosen for vocal/choir sounds. One is called "Aahh," and the other "Oohh". I worked with these for some time, but surprisingly couldn't create the sort of vocal quality that effortlessly leaps right out of the Poly Evolver. Giving the benefit of the doubt to the P12, I've presumed and hoped that the weakness was in my effort, rather than in the instrument. That's why I've posed this question here yet again. It appears as if the P12 can produce a quality choir patch, that it has the specific waveshapes for doing so, but I can't find a single person - here or elsewhere - who has applied himself or herself to designing one.
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I would have created one if I had a P12.
I think that the same method I used (with much help from Martin M) to make a P08 choir will work well on the P12. The key is that the formants don't move much even as the pitch changes a lot, and the formant locations are based on the particular syllable, ah, oh, or whatever. I suspect the first requirement may make the built in wavetables of the P12 unsuitable for a choir.
Using oscillator sync with the slave oscillator at one of the format frequencies is helpful. Since you have four oscillators on P12 you should be able to get two formants right there. Then you have the low pass filter, which can give you an additional format for three total formants. That should sound a lot like a human voice.
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I remember that thread, and if I recall correctly, the results were disappointing. Do you have any audio samples?
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I'm digging :P
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A possible source of inspiration: just came across factory patch 4.27 TibetHoliday again. Layer A has that throaty formant character we're looking for...
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Could you leave an audio sample?
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Could you leave an audio sample?
Hi,
i tried yesterday here are links to the requested patch https://soundcloud.com/martin2-2/tibetanholiday-b4p27-prophet-12
and me fooling around wtih my own patch. https://soundcloud.com/martin2-2/choirtest-prophet-12
The Tibetan has mostly Layer A active, my own is 2 Layers panned sometimes i soloed them.
Hope this helps,
Martin3
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A Choir sound is not something i normally use so it was a challenge for me. Here's my "from scratch" sound. The sound is "dry". No added effects.
https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/prophet-12-choir
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Could you leave an audio sample?
Hi,
i tried yesterday here are links to the requested patch https://soundcloud.com/martin2-2/tibetanholiday-b4p27-prophet-12
and me fooling around wtih my own patch. https://soundcloud.com/martin2-2/choirtest-prophet-12
The Tibetan has mostly Layer A active, my own is 2 Layers panned sometimes i soloed them.
Hope this helps,
Martin3
The second patch is getting there.
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A Choir sound is not something i normally use so it was a challenge for me. Here's my "from scratch" sound. The sound is "dry". No added effects.
https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/prophet-12-choir
That's getting close.
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A Choir sound is not something i normally use so it was a challenge for me. Here's my "from scratch" sound. The sound is "dry". No added effects.
https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/prophet-12-choir
That's getting close.
Here's another tweak. I used your stereo technique and added some effects and got this que.
https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/2018-02-18-choir-2
Enjoy!
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Jim -
That's the best I've heard so far. I would add just a touch more of vibrato. And I don't consider using reverb to be cheating. It's actually essential to the sound and quite a natural compliment, since a hall effect would be appropriate for a large chorus. Thanks for that sample.
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Jim -
That's the best I've heard so far. I would add just a touch more of vibrato. And I don't consider using reverb to be cheating. It's actually essential to the sound and quite a natural compliment, since a hall effect would be appropriate for a large chorus. Thanks for that sample.
Thanks! Here's another try with a touch more vibrato. It was kind of tricky because each LFO is doing double duty. I have the first three oscs modulating between waves, and the freq mod at the same rate. So, LFO 1 is doing both for osc 1, and the same for oscs 2 and 3. Osc 4 is Violet noise with LFO 4 doing random mod of the shape. The first 3 LFO's are running at somewhat different rates so to imitate three different voices.
BTW, it is the modulating between waves that causes most of the vibrato effect. The pitch modulation helps but not as much.
Here it is: https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/prophet-12-choir-4 Enjoy!
Also, since i had recorded the performance by MIDI, the performances between this and the last one are identical. The only difference is the LFO adjustment of the sound. It might be kind of interesting to A-B the performances and see what a change in LFO can do.
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That's good as well. But, yikes, you really had to do some serious programming to get it. I'll let it rest that this is about as far as the Prophet 12 can go on this patch. I appreciate your, and everyone else's, efforts. I thought my question would be an easy one, and I didn't mean to give anyone homework. The short of it, though, is that the Poly Evolver has it on this patch - at least, in my opinion. The Prophet 12 has other strengths.
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It was fun getting there though. It also gave me another base patch to work from. Here is a work in progress where I took the choir patch and changed the envelopes. The arpeggiated sound is the choir patch base. The bass sound is the P-08 and P-02. It's not finished, but I think you can get the point.
https://soundcloud.com/jdt9517/2018-02-21a
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Experimented a little by modshaping the Ahh, oooh, and even the nasal wave shapes.
https://soundcloud.com/wavescape-1/choir-samples-p12
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That's good as well. But, yikes, you really had to do some serious programming to get it. I'll let it rest that this is about as far as the Prophet 12 can go on this patch. I appreciate your, and everyone else's, efforts. I thought my question would be an easy one, and I didn't mean to give anyone homework. The short of it, though, is that the Poly Evolver has it on this patch - at least, in my opinion. The Prophet 12 has other strengths.
To be fair, you have to work pretty hard to get the Evolver to be where you want it to be, too. You have a bunch more waves to start with, but they are quite limiting on their own, and it takes programming knowledge to get it to sing.
The P12 has a different character, but I am convinced it can do its own take on similar sounds. It's not going to sound the same as the Evolver because the waves and oscillator playback are fundamentally different, but I think it is quite strong in its own right.
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The P12 has a different character, but I am convinced it can do its own take on similar sounds. It's not going to sound the same as the Evolver because the waves and oscillator playback are fundamentally different, but I think it is quite strong in its own right.
I'm more than willing to believe that, but I'm also still waiting to hear it.
The Evolver choir patch is quite easy to create, and it doesn't take a lot of time or knowledge. The advantage is that you can begin with a digital wave shape that already has you 2/3 there.
This recording is a bit old and mediocre, but there's a Poly Evolver Keyboard choir patch used throughout:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpWEOEIo0So
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Since my last experimentation with choir patches that I posted back in February, I have gotten some better choir sounds out of the P12. That being said, I do agree with Sacred synthesis that getting a choir is a little more intuitive on the PEK. Going a step further beyond the onboard PEK digital waveshapes, I experimented with taking an actual choir recording (using a part of the singing that was kind of even-like a drone) and snapped out two wave shapes using Audacity, and then used waveshape loader (posted in the PEK section of this forum) and imported one shape into osc 3 and the other shape into osc4. I'm very happy with the result. I hope to post soon.
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Could you leave an audio sample?
If you need some audio samples you can find them in google. My first search gave me this results www.loopmasters.com , www.lucidsamples.com , www.samplephonics.com
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Challenge accepted!
https://soundcloud.com/caley-kelly/prophets-choir (https://soundcloud.com/caley-kelly/prophets-choir)
A choir voicing was actually one of the more challenging things to program on the P12. Now that i have a few tricks down it will be easier. One big one that helped was to boost the HPF res past 127 in the mod matrix with DC to get more of a peak.
Cheers!
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An excellent patch, but only faintly reminiscent of a choir. I heard some distinct "meows" in there.
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That is a very nice patch!
Doesn’t sound like the original evolver patch at all, but I really really dig it 👍🏻 It’s exactly the type of sound I love my P12 for.
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Thanks.
I actually just had a break-through: try using the "Aahh" oscillator to modulate the LPF at positive and HPF at negative. With a bit of knob twisting for the res and envelopes I was able to get a more traditional choir sound in less than 5 minutes!
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Here's a composition using the above stated method. Audio rate filter modulation is the key!
https://soundcloud.com/caley-kelly/at-the-gate (https://soundcloud.com/caley-kelly/at-the-gate)
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Another nice patch, but....
For one, the slight envelope modulation of the filter at the attack stage sounds very unnatural. But I'd say you've got the right timbre.
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Thanks Sacred.
I was attempting to use velocity on attack times to go from staccato to legato, perhaps I went a bit too far.
Using the aah or ooh waves to modulate the filters at audio rate get you in the ballpark for formant sounds pretty quickly though.
Cheers!
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Standingwave -
Please don't take my comments in a personal way. I think you're developing a unique and impressive patch with a life of its own. It would provide an excellent harmonic support behind other musical parts, especially melodic. I just have something different and very specific in mind.
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Not at all sacred.
It's nice to be inspired to try new styles of synthesis by the community in general; it pushes my skills to the edge.
All good.
Cheers.
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I have enjoyed hearing the patch develop - a great insight into someone else's voice writing world. I usually don't have an end goal like "choir", I noodle until something interesting appears (or set up an FM framework) and then home in on that. In my (less precise) world I would probably tweak an earlier voice to give it a choir like onset and be done with it, without taking much notice of the changes as I made them - almost certainly resulting in quite an Alien choir.
Thanks for sharing!
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Yes, I've enjoyed it, too. I'm sure it pushed folks where they otherwise wouldn't have gone. It also convinced me all the more of something I already appreciated - that the Poly Evolver Keyboard remains unique among all the DSI synthesizers, and - barring the PX's samples - makes the best synthesized choir patch by far.
I don't expect this to happen; but in my opinion, an improved but substantially similar 8-voice PEK Rev2 would be a very desirable instrument, if it were ever to appear on the DSI work bench.
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I quite like the challenge aspect of this. Maybe we could do a regular theme-based patch-making “competition”. Or even a more specific-sound-based one as in the above example.
I’m probably not competent enough at programming yet but it’d be a great way to learn from you all.
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I think that would be a great idea!
The p12 is perfect for challenges!
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That's a great idea. Now all I need is a Prophet 12.... :(
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I agree, it would be fun! Also, great insight into other's workflows for sure.
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It doesn’t necessarily have to be a P12-only thing; it could be opened to all and would be interesting to see how far different synths can be used to achieve similar results.
I also am lacking a P12. Currently I only have a Subsequent 37 but am trying to decide which DSI synth to go for.
That's a great idea. Now all I need is a Prophet 12.... :(
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It would make good forum sense to keep this limited to the Prophet 12. If you wanted to start a general all-instruments patch challenge thread, that would be a great idea over in the General Synthesis Off Topic area. There's plenty of room here for all of this. It's always best to keep the topics clear and specific.
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It would make good forum sense to keep this limited to the Prophet 12. If you wanted to start a general all-instruments patch challenge thread, that would be a great idea over in the General Synthesis Off Topic area. There's plenty of room here for all of this, and it's always best to keep the topics clear and specific.
Yes, I realised that if opening up to other synths the topic would need to be elsewhere. I’m glad to hear there’s some enthusiasm for this idea.
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Hi Sacred Synthesis,
I've been following your work for a while and like it very much. I've noticed that you seem to be decided that a P12 could fit your need now (which was not the case few months ago), so why you haven't bought it yet? Is it because your approach will always be a stereo set up like a P12 keys plus P12 module like you have with your Evolvers? Hence the cost of the two units at the same time?
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I changed my view of the Prophet 12 exactly one year ago, after being loaned one for a month. I found it to be very different from the instrument I had come to know exclusively through YouTube videos.
So, why haven't I bought my own Prophet 12? Because I can't presently afford one! I've actually had two of my present instruments for sale for about eight months now, but with no serious bites. I have a feeling that I'm going to miss out on the Prophet 12 altogether, although I expect to get a Rev2 or two. But am I really missing out on anything? The Poly Evolver Keyboards are extraordinary instruments and I wear them like gloves.
If I manage to get a bit of money together for music, at this point I'm more inclined to buy a piece of recording equipment, rather than a synthesizer. My only present musical goal is to record my compositions and offer them for sale in one way or another. The whole GAS issue is completely resolved.
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If I manage to get a bit of money together for music, at this point I'm more inclined to buy a piece of recording equipment, rather than a synthesizer. My only present musical goal is to record my compositions and offer them for sale in one way or another. The whole GAS issue is completely resolved.
Do you plan to record the output of your mixer or will you prefer to record each synth on its own channel and mix digitally in a DAW? What computer type (windows, macos) are you using? Can it run modern software? How much of the mixing and mastering tasks do you plan to do yourself?
The sounds you have designed are very good. Have you considered funding your next instrument(s) by selling preset packs to other users? It could bring you good money for your synthesized future (minor detail: taxes). I will happily help you reorder the presets if you need help with that. The initial investment is quite low as all you need (provided that your computer supports that) is a class compliant USB/MIDI interface for loading the presets into your computer.
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Thanks for the offer, Dslsynth. I haven't worked out the details of the recording yet. I'd like to keep things as simple and direct as possible. I have no need to multi-tracking, and would like to maintain the live performance approach as a standard for recording. In other words, everything I compose I can play and produce all at once, and I intend to keep it this way. Whatever changes need to be made in patches, effects, or mixing are incorporated into the pieces from the beginning.
I'm interested in the Tascam DR-100MkIII. It seems as if it would be a substantial improvement regarding audio quality, presuming I get proficient with it. But again, I'm still exploring. Whatever works best in the end, it will require some careful experimentation.
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Cheers, Sacred Synthesis! Sounds like a plan. The recorder looks very interesting:
https://youtu.be/Kqc23fDEUjU
My impression is that A/D converter and preamp quality improves as new products are developed so it may be an idea to check for more modern products while you save up for your next recorder.
In case you decide to go the DAW direction and have the hardware to support it one or all of these plugins (https://www.izotope.com/en/products/bundles/elements-suite.html) may be worth taking a look at. They are on sales a few times each year.
And then we ended up in recording technology discussion in a choir patch thread. Good luck with it, sir! ;)
@Site maintenance team: youtube video inline feature overrules the "url" inline link tag, sigh!
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Thank you very much.
By the way, I believe the Tascam MkIII is only about a year old. The MkII, which I nearly bought, had some problems.
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The video is around two years old so it a bit more than one year old it seems. ;)
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This thread really brought home something to me that implicitly took me a while to understand: the P12 can do an amazing range of things, and it has enough tools that you can get there eventually. But it does require work if you have a specific goal in mind--it does not have the super-broad sweet spots like the OB-6. That said, if you accept that it's a tradeoff between flexibility and "just dial in a stereotypical P12 sound," it's very rewarding. I initially had a little buyer's remorse when trying to work with it, but after a while I realized there was ALWAYS something else I could do to the sound, always another approach I could try. Going back to other synthesizers afterward always feels a bit limiting.
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@SS- If you can manage it, I would go with the DAW approach. You can record live but have each instrument on different tracks. It will give you a lot more flexibility in final mixes.
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Thanks, Jim.
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Another piece using a Poly Evolver Keyboard choir patch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZfIjd53Hos