The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet => Prophet Rev2 => Topic started by: jok3r on October 07, 2017, 12:35:30 AM
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Hello together,
I read somewhere (perhaps in the Prophet 6 Subforum) that the Rev2's architecture is more like the synth's the famous Jump patch was played on, than the Prophet 6. The reason I have in mind is the use of the Curtis filter. Someone said, because of this the Rev2 might do a better Jump patch than the P6.
I'm playing in a classic rock cover band and use only workstation keyboards at the moment (Korg Kronos & Kurzweil PC361 - Both can do a very good Jump patch with their VA engines). For my personal satisfaction I'm looking for an analog poly synth for more than a year now and read this forum daily, because the Rev2 is my favorite at the moment and would actually be affordable for me now.
The Jump patch won't be a deal breaker for me, since I want to do a lot more with this synth than only play cover rock. But it would be a shame if I had to play this patch on my digital workstations, even when there's a real analog poly synth on the stand beside them.
So could some of you program this patch and post videos or recordings of it? Could we do a little jump patch contest? ;-)
(I know - not this shit again... but it's really interesting for me, since i heard a lot of "Jump" patches, that actually were not really good or didn't have the balls to play that in a band. I want to see if this can do a really good Jump patch.)
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Well... sound aside, at least you can actually PLAY jump properly on the Rev2 having 5 octaves. I'll never understand why DSI hampered the OB/P6 with those short keybeds. Total waste of a decent pair of instruments (I prefer the Rev2's sound and power anyway believe it or not). I think there's a preset for 'jump' on board the Rev2 and yes some who've owned obies say it can sound more obie like than the OB-6 at times but of course it's not gonna be like a vintage VCO monster (nor neither is the Prophet 6 or OB-6 VCOS or not they sound quite modern and hard vs real old VCOs in fact the P6 sounds hard and the OB-6 sounds harsh/cold vs the Rev2, which can sound warm/refined as well as dark and moody or sweet and japanese/juno like, which is surprising given their price and spec differences), but close enough for most esp in covers bands.
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I love the old Oberheim sounds and continue to enjoy trying to get them on these analog synthesizers. The '08 and Rev2 do indeed achieve some great Oberheim patches. There is a Jump patch on the Rev2 (Jump!), and the GEOSynths patch set for the Rev2 has one too.
Although the Rev2 Jump patch is a great sounding Oberheim patch (I like what they do with the additional slop setting on that one, which wasn't possible on the '08), I think the original patch from the Prophet '08 (Yump) is still the most accurate of the three. It's pretty simple: no resonance, oscillators at -5 and +5, etc. That patch has a slight pitch blip/ramp up at the attack, which the designer must have heard. I once slowed down the recording of Jump to hear if there was a slight ramping up or down of the pitch. I didn't hear one, but I did hear a very short/fast tremolo on the attack, which isn't noticeable when played at the normal speed. So I eliminated the pitch blip and instead use the third EG to get a very short and fast tremolo... and then dial it back to an appropriately subtle level. Putting this sound into the Rev2 means that you can also program in some delay, which helps a lot. Like everything else, these patches sound much better when using Sacred Synthesis' stereo arrangement, such as with an '08 module. Everything else makes subtle differences, but running it in true stereo from two different units really gives it the 'wow' effect.
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Hi,
Don't know if it really helps to estimate how far the Rev2 could be a solution, but here is a quick sample of the built-in patch. I'm not a keyboarder so please don't listen to the tempo and other stuff 8).
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Well... sound aside, at least you can actually PLAY jump properly on the Rev2 having 5 octaves. I'll never understand why DSI hampered the OB/P6 with those short keybeds. Total waste of a decent pair of instruments (I prefer the Rev2's sound and power anyway believe it or not). I think there's a preset for 'jump' on board the Rev2 and yes some who've owned obies say it can sound more obie like than the OB-6 at times but of course it's not gonna be like a vintage VCO monster (nor neither is the Prophet 6 or OB-6 VCOS or not they sound quite modern and hard vs real old VCOs in fact the P6 sounds hard and the OB-6 sounds harsh/cold vs the Rev2, which can sound warm/refined as well as dark and moody or sweet and japanese/juno like, which is surprising given their price and spec differences), but close enough for most esp in covers bands.
JUMP was played on the OBXa which used Curtis filters...the OB6 is SEM based. Totally different of course it won’t sound exactly the same. Most people saying the OB6 “doesn’t sound like an Oberheim” only know the OB8 or OBXa and none of the SEM based legacy.
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There is a patch on the REV2 called JUMP. Sounds spot on but I noticed it was in stack mode and when I was playing the riff on the 8 voice version voices started to be stollen from the low octave Chord being held. Odd because the OBXa was only 8 voices.
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Thanks for the answers. The demo sounds indeed better than much factory presets of several workstations I played throughout the years. I always had to program it myself and would do that an the Rev2, too. I just want to know if it is even possible.
When I listen to this recording and the original song alternately, I still think the higher notes of the Rev2's version sound a little weak. Is that due to equalizing in the original mix? Or are there any other sound engineering techniques that could be applied after the outputs of the synth that make this effect?
The little demo's sound is really good, if you hear it without comparing it directly to the original. Could there be a way to achieve these stronger right hand chords without any postprocessing of the signal? Only with some more tweaking? Or a stronger use of the effect section?
And yeah... a 5 octave keyboard with at least 5 voices is absolutely essential for playing this song. That's a feature I also like on the Rev2.
@LoboLives: So one can say the '08/Rev2 is the nearest relative to an OBXa within the DSI product line?
Can anyone tell me the patch number of this sound? Perhaps I can try out a Rev2 last minute before buying on Tuesday. And I don't want to waste my short time with looking for that patch. I want to create some own sounds, which is despite everything more important than this single patch.
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Can anyone tell me the patch number of this sound?
Bank F3 Program P38, named "JUMP!"
I have not tried so far to approach the original in such details, but there could be some possibilities. The patch is a stacked one. Both layers are almost identical, only the oscillators of each layer are detuned slightly different. The effects are a short BBD delay on both, you could try to exchange one by a chorus for example and maybe modulate the FX mix by the note number to have more effect on the higher notes. I'm still in the beginning playing with the Rev2, maybe someone knows more tricks.
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Thanks for the answers. The demo sounds indeed better than much factory presets of several workstations I played throughout the years. I always had to program it myself and would do that an the Rev2, too. I just want to know if it is even possible.
When I listen to this recording and the original song alternately, I still think the higher notes of the Rev2's version sound a little weak. Is that due to equalizing in the original mix? Or are there any other sound engineering techniques that could be applied after the outputs of the synth that make this effect?
The little demo's sound is really good, if you hear it without comparing it directly to the original. Could there be a way to achieve these stronger right hand chords without any postprocessing of the signal? Only with some more tweaking? Or a stronger use of the effect section?
And yeah... a 5 octave keyboard with at least 5 voices is absolutely essential for playing this song. That's a feature I also like on the Rev2.
@LoboLives: So one can say the '08/Rev2 is the nearest relative to an OBXa within the DSI product line?
Can anyone tell me the patch number of this sound? Perhaps I can try out a Rev2 last minute before buying on Tuesday. And I don't want to waste my short time with looking for that patch. I want to create some own sounds, which is despite everything more important than this single patch.
Add some chorus to one of the layers instead of a BBD and it should get you there.
The P08 and REV2 are much closer to the OBXa than the OB6 sound wise.
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On a related topic, it's always fascinating to again take a look at these introductions. The reviewer makes direct comparisons between the Prophet '08 and the Oberheim OB-Xa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oS6J2sToZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCz0yR48b1o
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This is what the Jump preset was slightly modified from. This is the original OBXa A1 patch sheet.
Sorry its a little dark but it was my iPad camera and my live room is not the brightest.
I do have a similar patch for the Pro 08 that I downloaded a few years ago on the original DSI forum. It's not mine and I don't know who originally authored it. Will and try and dig it out for you later and post it.
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Good News: got a 16 Voice Unit from my local shop today. That Jump patch sounds much better in reality ;-) But there's still work to do. But nothing I would not get sorted out... thanks for your help.
Bad News: My Rev2 has some broken keys. Some make a strange noise when they are released and snap back. Seems like there should be some damper like at the other ones, but it isn't there. Sounds like the key hit the metal body directly when snapping back. This is at 4-5 consecutive keys. Another key way down the board doesn't snap back at all. I have to pull it up manually if I accidentally hit it.
I'll bring the synth back tomorrow and hope they got another unit in stock to exchange it. It's a brand new synth and such things shouldn't happen. But well... I had similar problems with my Korg Kronos, too. Usually my dealer solves those problems without asking any questions.
Apart from this problem, I really enjoyed the first hours with my new knobby analog synth.
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Hi jok3r-
Congrats on the new Rev2! Sorry to hear you're experiencing trouble with some of the keys. It sounds like it's this issue here:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,1710.msg19213.html#msg19213
It's very likely you'll be able to resolve the issue at home in just a few minutes. Please contact our dedicated support channel and we'll get you sorted out: support (at) davesmithinstruments.com
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This is what the Jump preset was slightly modified from. This is the original OBXa A1 patch sheet.
Sorry its a little dark but it was my iPad camera and my live room is not the brightest.
I do have a similar patch for the Pro 08 that I downloaded a few years ago on the original DSI forum. It's not mine and I don't know who originally authored it. Will and try and dig it out for you later and post it.
You know, looking at the OBXa layout.....it seems like almost the perfect layout for an analog synth that can do splits and layers while still having everything on the front panel.
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You know, looking at the OBXa layout.....it seems like almost the perfect layout for an analog synth that can do splits and layers while still having everything on the front panel.
I have an OB8 that is almost exactly the same. It is so easy to work with. It does have Page2 functionality that the obxa does not have so a lot of them controls have a secondary function but for most sounds, this initial layer is so good to work with. Great design as they all were back then.
Saying that, my Pro 08 is nice and simple too. 😊
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What I would give for one of those massive Oberheims....Just beautiful.
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What I would give for one of those massive Oberheims....Just beautiful.
Yes, they are gorgeous. The sound is beautiful too.
I think both Dave and Tom nailed it back then with their Pro5 and OBXa/OB8. Dave's Prophet 5 is probably the best looking synth ever.
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Agreed. Both sound and appearance. And all these years later, we're still trying to achieve that same beauty.
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What I would give for one of those massive Oberheims....Just beautiful.
Yes, they are gorgeous. The sound is beautiful too.
I think both Dave and Tom nailed it back then with their Pro5 and OBXa/OB8. Dave's Prophet 5 is probably the best looking synth ever.
Looking at the Prophet 6 it would have been great to see Dave put a strip of wood across where the Prophet 6 name sits just above the keyboard. The black I’m sure is more to do with economics and accessibility but still.
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Thanks, Robot Heart, for your answer. But I'm sitting in Germany and was already asleep, when you wrote it. I woke up the next day and the first thing I did was returning my unit.
I did some other tests the evening before and discovered that I not only had problems with the keys, but also had one of those faulty voice chips. If I set osc1 to triangle and played some keys in the upper half of the board I got a strong "sawtoothy" sound on voices 13-15. Recallibration did not work. Even in a practical use case this effect was very clear to hear. I played 4-voice chord progressions and every 4th chord (containing voices 13-16) sounded like a sawtooth chord instead of a triangle.
All in all: the unit was too faulty. I simply didn't want to keep it. I got my money back, because I didn't want to have another unit in exchange. I think I will wait a few month and try again. Perhaps the production of this synth is stable enough by then, so there won't be faulty units that often.
I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to sort out any problems with a brand new synth out of the shop. I simply expect it to work. Music is my compensation for my work life. I'm on vacation this week and don't want to solve any problems in my rare spare time. If I want to do that, I'll go back to work or buy a vintage synth on ebay ;-)
My first impression of DSI is still very good. I read this forum quite frequently and think the support is very good, both from the community and from all DSI employees. I'll give the Rev2 another try when I think the children's diseases are over.
It's 3 AM here... I'll go to sleep. ;-)
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Hi jok3r-
Congrats on the new Rev2! Sorry to hear you're experiencing trouble with some of the keys. It sounds like it's this issue here:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,1710.msg19213.html#msg19213
It's very likely you'll be able to resolve the issue at home in just a few minutes. Please contact our dedicated support channel and we'll get you sorted out: support (at) davesmithinstruments.com
This was my issue with my first and second unit (and the available third unit, if I had returned the second one). It is easy to fix and essentially comes down to this: loosen the side screws, and then keep the upper lid up as high as you reasonably can, and then tighten the side screws back. But be sure and contact them to see their directions because it's a little more involved than what I just said. This worked at first, but a few of the keys started hitting the metal again. So I decided to redo the previous step and also re-tighten the rear (top panel) screws as well, raising the whole lid as high as it would go. That fixed it for good and has been a solid fix. Big fan of DSI support, love the REV2 and glad this is a field serviceable keyboard.
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Thanks, Robot Heart, for your answer. But I'm sitting in Germany and was already asleep, when you wrote it. I woke up the next day and the first thing I did was returning my unit.
I did some other tests the evening before and discovered that I not only had problems with the keys, but also had one of those faulty voice chips. If I set osc1 to triangle and played some keys in the upper half of the board I got a strong "sawtoothy" sound on voices 13-15. Recallibration did not work. Even in a practical use case this effect was very clear to hear. I played 4-voice chord progressions and every 4th chord (containing voices 13-16) sounded like a sawtooth chord instead of a triangle.
All in all: the unit was too faulty. I simply didn't want to keep it. I got my money back, because I didn't want to have another unit in exchange. I think I will wait a few month and try again. Perhaps the production of this synth is stable enough by then, so there won't be faulty units that often.
I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to sort out any problems with a brand new synth out of the shop. I simply expect it to work. Music is my compensation for my work life. I'm on vacation this week and don't want to solve any problems in my rare spare time. If I want to do that, I'll go back to work or buy a vintage synth on ebay ;-)
My first impression of DSI is still very good. I read this forum quite frequently and think the support is very good, both from the community and from all DSI employees. I'll give the Rev2 another try when I think the children's diseases are over.
It's 3 AM here... I'll go to sleep. ;-)
To be honest I sort of am starting to feel that way about the Prophet 6 that still in the repair shop. The warranty is still good so I may ask for my money back. Not DSI's fault but the store I got it from has been a nightmare to deal with so I may just get my money back and buy a new one from another shop. Sadly though, it's gone up in price so it might not be a good idea either.
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Maybe it's time to "jump" and get yourself instead that Oberheim Two-Voice Pro.
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Maybe it's time to "jump" and get yourself instead that Oberheim Two-Voice Pro.
Yeah, it's sadly a long waiting time apparently.
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My first impression of DSI is still very good. I read this forum quite frequently and think the support is very good, both from the community and from all DSI employees. I'll give the Rev2 another try when I think the children's diseases are over.
I just wanted to inform you, that today was the day! Almost a year later, i really bought another Rev2 today.
There are no obvious problems this time (just some of the bugs mentioned in other threads, but nothing that looks like broken hardware or something i did not know before buying) and I'm enjoying it very much so far.
I'm writing this, because I wanted to thank all users of this forum and the Sequential staff for keeping my interest in this synth up until today. Thank you very much.
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Welcome back!
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Welcome back, jok3r. Obviously the gravitational pull of the Rev2 was enough to keep you in orbit for awhile. My situation is actually very similar to yours.
Like you, I have a Kronos on tier 1 of my gigging keyboard rig. Admittedly, I've spent many hours (too many!) programming in analog emulations for cover songs, with Jump being the main culprit. For the pre-chorus and pre-solo section, I use a different synth bass and a more mellow sawtooth patch, both played from my tier 2 controller on channels 2 and 3. An Integra is layered with the Kronos sounds for more fullness, when I can be bothered to bring it -- too much gear!, esp since I'm also the bass player and sound guy for the band =/
Still, it is a lot of work to get close. It's a shame to play emulations when you have an analog board that should be able to achieve better fidelity much more easily. The Rev2 Jump patch is ok, but being something of a perfectionist, it's not quite there for my tastes. But then again, the Rev2 is not just for presets, right? ;)
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*** The following section is primarily intended for Kronos Jump users like jok3r, although it also applies to any synth.***
Here's a few techniques I've learned in the ridiculous quest for "that" classic OB Jump sound.
-- Use a thick plate or spring reverb on the main right-hand synth brass sound. Listen to the original song, the reverb is definitely a defining characteristic here. There is a bit of spacing between the sound and the onset of the reverb. On the Kronos I used Reverb Dry Plate (1 sec, 50% damp) and around 80ms for the pre-delay (50% thru).
-- Like others have noted, the main brass benefits from the typical pitch blip for synth brass patches. On the Kronos I've set each AL-1 engine where the velocity affects the pitch envelopes slightly differently compared to each other. Playing harder (intro and outro) increases the brassiness as well as the volume this way.
-- The lower bass saws sound is very big, and deserves to be its own separate program. Its amp and filter decays are very long, over a couple measures, but it does fade down and not stay at full volume the whole time.
-- If you slack on the bass saw, the song can suffer. For example, after you think you've nailed the high saw part, try substituting various saw bass sounds, and see how the whole impression changes. Also, if you have no bass player pumping the eighth notes, it will become apparent very quick just how mechanical/digital the bass sound is. Analog bass ftw, but if none available, pay close attention to the bass sound attack and punchiness over repeated eighth notes. Of course, bump up the low and low mid to give it the beef it needs to support the song. But, don't neglect the sizzle either.
-- The pre-chorus and pre-solo sections also deserve their own programs. The song is already overly repetitive by nature, and if you don't break that up for the various song sections, but instead choose to only use the same sound for the whole song, you will lose that dynamic contrast that makes live music so enjoyable.
-- You can use the Dynamic Comp to bump up the volume for the brass patch keyboard solo, kind of like how a guitar player uses his boost pedal for solos. Assign the Comp to Switch 1, and you can toggle the solo volume as needed.
-- Use the Kronos Multiband Compressor and Mastering Limiter on TFX 1 and 2 to smooth out and bump up the whole combi.
-- Most of the above of course should not be needed with really good, juicy analog goodness. It was much quicker and easier, with the results far more pleasing, to dial up the secondary sounds on my Rev2 than it was on either the Kronos or Integra. I am still working on the main Jump sounds as we speak. First drafts of "I'll Wait" was also fruitful, with Subdivisions, Power of Love, Separate Ways, and Uptown Funk on the list. Hopefully the results will be enough to ground me from orbit and make me keep my Rev2 instead of searching for another tier 2 controller keyboard...
HTH
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Thanks for the kind replies.
I almost forgot about that this topic was originally about the Jump patch... I just used the forum search to find the post where I stated, that i will give the Rev2 another try in the future.
In the meantime I did a Jump patch on the Rev 2 that actually fits my needs. It does not have to be 100% accurate, I just want it to have enough balls to rock the s**t out of that song when performing live. I try to see that from a realistic point of view: as a gigging cover musician I have an audience that contains of people that cannot hear the difference. I guess that is true for 99% of the audience. So, as said: as long as it kicks, it's good enough.
For dynamics in this song I'm simply using velocity. I started playing on the piano, so playing dynamically is not a problem for me, even on synth keybeds (and I love the keybed of the Rev2, because it's the same as in my Kurzweil PC361).
A similar sound I'm trying to replicate regularly is this sync sound from "Why can't this be love" and it sounds much better on the Rev2 that on my digital synth.
So in general: I'm very pleased at the moment ;-)
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I made a Van Halen Jump patch tutorial on the Prophet Rev2 (with voice modeling of an OBXA) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmJiU5ftI-Y