The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet => Prophet Rev2 => Topic started by: MrSeventySix on August 09, 2017, 06:20:02 PM
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I know it's possible to synchronize the Rev2 with an external clock, but I can't figure out a way to implement true beat sync. As is, whenever I trigger notes even a few milliseconds off, the arpeggiator remains off by that amount for as long as it plays. This renders the arpeggiator and sequencer unreliable enough to be basically unusable in live settings, at least for me. I know that I am not alone in this.
I can't find anything of use in the manual. Does anyone know how to sync notes triggering with an external clock? Surely this is possible. It's 2017!
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Our instruments have clock sync, not beat sync. If you want to trigger an arp or a sequence in time, you need to play it in time or trigger it externally. The fact that the arp remains off by the same amount it was first triggered indicates sync is not drifting.
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Yes, I understand the difference.
Extremely disappointing omission for such a pricey piece of hardware. Beat sync is a common feature these days. Any chance it might be added in a firmware update?
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Beat Sync isn't a common feature, I own a fair few synths and can't recall any with beat sync, all have clock sync, may be at the mod says learn to play in time ;)
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The only synth I have with beat sync is a Nord Lead A1. To be honest, I wish more synths had the feature as it is great for performance and improvisation alongside sequenced gear. As useful a feature as it is, it's never something that influences my purchasing decisions.
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Beat Sync isn't a common feature, I own a fair few synths and can't recall any with beat sync, all have clock sync, may be at the mod says learn to play in time ;)
I beg to disagree, there are loads of synths with beat sync arp. Telling someone to just "learn to play in time" is not a sufficient answer to such request. I agree with the OP here because even if I am good at playing in time, there are moments when you strike a chord slightly off the beat and it totally ruins the groove because it starts the pattern over, and if by any chance a upper note is hit before a lower note (assuming that you use an UP arpeggiator pattern) then it sounds awkwardly wrong.
It's a legitimate request to want to have beat sync as an option. Just as an example, the Juno60 has beat sync arp. The Sub37 has beat sync arp.
Where is the problem if DSI eventually makes the setting available ? It would suit everyone. The ones using clock sync, and the ones using beat sync.
I agree that it should be in the pipe for a feature request: Beat Sync as an option in the arp menu. ;)
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I personally prefer tempo sync to beat sync because then you can do things like hit it on the off beat and have it stay on the off beat, or on any other division of the beat. Just seems like even if you had beat sync and relied on that you'd still be incapable of "live" (or whatever you can playing in the keybed without a sequencer) playing on rhythm..so you'd need to work on that either way...
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+1 for Beat Sync ! 8)
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Just seems like even if you had beat sync and relied on that you'd still be incapable of "live" (or whatever you can playing in the keybed without a sequencer) playing on rhythm..so you'd need to work on that either way...
Well, I understand the appeal of clock sync to keep an offbeat feeling, but conversely, that is what makes the beat sync suitable for a live performance. Whether you hit the chord too soon or to late, the arpeggiator's beat remains steady and doesn't shift.
Here is a great example of a Beat Sync Arpeggiator during a live performance : https://youtu.be/MlStIByfTyQ?t=7m58s
You can see that Nils Frahm hits the chords slighty before the pattern to start over so he can tweak the filter and pitch.
It's a Juno 60 but I could easily reproduce the same arp pattern on a Sub37. I woulds love to be able to do that on a Prophet Rev2 for the sound possibilities.
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Hi,
I also would like to reinforce the beat sync feature.
It is appropriate for most musical situations.
It should be choosable.
I'm also a little bit disappointed about DSI. It is actually a manufacturer with a very long history in the synth world.
br
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Beat sync quantizes your performance from the keyboard, and whether or not to include such a behavior is actually a bit of a philosophical question.
Are you all aware that you can "clock" the arp and poly sequencer from the sequencer jack in the Prophet Rev2 (the P6/OB-6 and PDJ AS-1 also feature the sequencer jack)? This is achieve with any 0-5 VDC signal with a sharp transient edge, such as the trigger out from another synth/drum machine, a rimshot or similar sound from a drum machine that has individual voice outs, or an "analog" clock pulse from the eurorack world or some other piece of gear that features such an output. There are also dedicated devices out there that will convert MIDI clock to trigger pluses, like some of the Kenton boxes or the Future Retro Swynx.
When triggered in this manner, the arp/poly sequencer will always be perfectly in sync with the pulse received at the sequencer jack (with the global setting for the jack set to "trigger").
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Gotta +1 the request for a 'Beat Sync' option (that doesn't involve sourcing an archaic method of audio pulse signalling like it's 1980) :)
I've had many, many synths, of those that had arpeggiators the best ones to use, the most inspiring, the most fun, all had BeatSync. Nearly all if not all Roland synths that had Arps had beat sync BY DEFAULT and became the 'world leaders' in ARP usage because of that. Modern Korgs often had the option for 'key latch' or 'free' (iirc) which was basically beat sync or not, again these arps are supremely playable and inspiring.
I love my Prophet Rev2, the best overall synth I've owned in years, and I've own close to 100 synths in the past 20 or so years, but it is a shame to see this issue is still being overlooked by DSI when so many people (who CAN in fact 'play in time' anyway) would really love it, to make an already great synth an even better one.
Just adding that option in the arp parameters would be a massive boost to arp usage/productivity.
And it really is nothing to do with 'playing in time', arps by their nature are sequencers, sequencers are meant to be locked to a beat or they defeat the purpose (I'm simplifying here but if not then we'd all just play these runs by hand ;) ). I play piano and I also play bass and guitar, my timing is rock solid, yet that has little to do with why you'd use 'beat sync' on an ARP.
As someone above mentioned, one great example is Juno 60 with its world famous arp, I've owned juno 60 and I also own polysix, one has beat sync the other doesn't (except via convoluted trigger input which aint nobody got time for in 2017 when hooked up via USB to a DAW already!). I used the Juno 60s arps all the times, I rarely used the Polysix's even though it had an overall better tone and was more fun in general as a synth.
Being able to hit a key before the beat but have it save the actual note change FOR the beat is an excellent system as it allows you to line up the next notes in advance without sitting there focusing only on that one aspect, it allows an arp to open up and feel like a real instrument rather than an idiosyncratic stresser, cos even if you did hit it perfectly in time the effect is rarely the same, it makes the arp feel clumsy ,tripping over itself, not very flowing etc.. at least 9 times out of 10 anyway, and if you have beat sync you play the arp (inc a single note hit to play an arp'd melody line) while your brain/hands go back to doing the next thing (sound tweaks or whatever).
Essentially if there is an internal tally on feature requests I will give 10 of my DSI vote points to this one issue. It's not that It'll kill me without it, it's just I'm unlikely to want to use the arp AT ALL without it and will have to resort to sequencing it (from a DAW or midi ARP plug in that does this), it's just not as fun, inspiring or useful without at least having the beat-sync option.
And for the record, more of the synths have had beat sync than not had it out of the many, many I've used inc analog and digital (VA). And arp is almost a gimmick without beat sync, not a useful tool. You'd be better playing live arpeggios by hand than using a 'stiff' and clumsy non beat sync'd arp imo (of course an arp triggered perfectly in time via a DAW is fine too and you can do that with the rev 2 but it's not good for composing/playing live/coming up with fresh inspirationg from arps)
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Thank you Propheteer for adding to the beat sync request as a feature. You detailed it better than I did and I could not agree more with what you said.
Also I don't get why a beat sync feature should become something "philosophical" as extempo said. Whether you want to play with clock sync or beat sync is up to you but has nothing to do with an over complicated conception of what an arpeggiator should be like. It is nothing but a technical feature. And once again, we are not asking to replace the clock sync, we are asking to ADD the beat sync function to the already existing clock sync. So why the fuss ?
As Propheteer explained, most of the inspiring synth have that option in the arp section. Bringing the REV2 to the pantheon of the best inspiring synth is a valid request. ;)
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" Bringing the REV2 to the pantheon of the best inspiring synth is a valid request."
Exactly!
Funnily enough I was JUST using the arp after answering a guy about a preset (then making my own cool bass sound and ARPING it) and was once again disappointed by the lack of beat sync (optional!). It's so clumsy without it to get a locked in groove going, No matter how accurate you press a key on the beat it's not the same thing! I had a near moment of 'wow this amazing synth can also replace my Juno 60' based on the punchiness and sound I'd just dialed in, but alas, no.. not while it has an slightly inept arpeggiator function for THAT particular scenario.
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I don't think that there will ever be a beat synced arpeggiator on a dsi instrument. that's why i sold the ob6 keyboard and now have the module version with a midi keyboard.
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really disappointed with this and if I was still in my 30-day grace period, I'd probably have returned the REV2.
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I mentioned this behavior before also!
I noticed this first on the Prophet 6 when I had it before I swapped it for a REV2.
It's really impossible to play exactly right on time when you change the root note of an arpeggio or of a gated sequence for example.
It frustrated me again two days ago, when I needed to prepare the synth sequence for 'I Feel Love' (Summer / Moroder) for an upcoming live show on our national radio.
For that show I would only be using my Nord Stage 2 and the REV2 16V.
It's a very simple sequence to program, and it's just that sequence that is transposed to different root notes, so all I'd have to do is playing the root notes to be able to play the whole song.
Unfortunately, I simply couldn't get the timing of my gated sequence tight with the REV2, and believe me I'm not a bad piano & keys player...
Just a couple of milliseconds early / late and the groove is completely broken!!
I really don't understand why it's not possible to beat clock the sequencer / arpeggiator, or at least to leave the choice to have it beat synced or not up to the user...
The same evening, back home I did it over on my Moog Subsequent 37 and, just for fun, also on the Novation Bass Station 2.
With those two synths transposing the running sequence by playing a new root note worked like a charm, beat clocking perfectly in time, keeping the groove locked. This is REALLY the way it should be!
If I'm right, my polysix does it also, so NO it's not something exceptional and it's not something that only modern synths can do...
Now I've got my Subsequent 37 with me on stage for that song, and on the rehearsal yesterday I had a lot of fun with it. REV2 is only used for the pads now, and surely happy of the sound I got with it, yes...
Maybe one day DSI might consider to re-think about some of these 'issues' that people are requesting to address already long time, 3 of the most important of them are:
- BEAT CLOCKING: see above
- HOLD BEHAVIOR:
please make it user defined (making it possible to not only mixing all notes until full polyphony is reached, like is the case right now, but also being able to RE-LATCH every time a new note or chord is played like on a polysix, or like you can do with squarp pyramid, like what is possible with other synths / HW ...)
- CHORD MEMORY:
pleaso make it more than 4 voices! Old Polysix does -hence the name- 6 voices of chord memory. I've got a REV2 16 (not an 8, yes) and I can't have more than 4 notes in chord memory, which is ridiculous!
With 5 notes in chord memory for example, you can play such nice 'house' ninth chords: 1 note in the bass (left hand) 4 notes for the other chord tones (richt hand)... I 'm sure in a lot of more styles and genres chord memory of more than 4 notes can be desired too...
Thanks again DSI for making these great prophet synths, but there's still some improvement in some of the functionality, which on some functions still is a little bit odd, at least for quite a few (live) musicians and performers out there...
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Hopefully you’ve all expressed your wishes to DSI support :)
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I'd like to have the beat sync function for playing live!
Send a message to DSI support.
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You could tap tempo it.
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You could tap tempo it.
No, it's not the clock, it just won't re-trigger on the next beat, but starts on key-press only, so unless you're an android (possibly a cyborg will do, but unconfirmed) and can hit that chord perfectly on time, it'll be out and continue to "drift" out of time the longer the master sequence (on another synth) runs.
The Sequencer in jack apparently will sync it, but it's a bit archaic and finding a 5V pulse source isn't something the modern electronic studio has in a world of MIDI and DAWs.
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I've got to agree that this is a helpful feature that seems like it shouldn't be a big deal to add.
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I agree that having a beat sync option for the arp and sequencers would be a great feature. For those of you with absolutely flawless, robotic-level timing, this feature could still have a lot of potential for even your advanced performance flow.
For example, in arp latch mode you could enter your arp changes ahead of time so that when the downbeat hits and the arp changes to the new notes, your two hands could already be free and working other parameters elsewhere...directly on the downbeat when the arp change happens. No matter how amazing your timing is, if you have to be worried about hitting the arp change on the downbeat, it's very unlikely that you are fast enough to have your hands ready elsewhere if you want parameters to modulate on the downbeat along with the arp change.
This type of beat sync feature is very standard in the controller and dj world, which a lot of folks have become very used to. I think adding this feature would help keep this amazing synth in line with techniques that many of us have become accustomed to using. So, rather than turning this into a pissing contest of who has the most flawless timing... the real point to me is: beat sync would make parts of this synth immediately more accessible to less skilled players, and simultaneously would allow highly skilled players to go even further than they could without this feature.
It's not a deal-breaker for me by any means... but, I think it's becoming more and more a standard feature that I would always welcome.
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Another +1 for beat sync!
In the mean time... I get around it by turning off the 'local control' on the rev2, then receiving the midi notes via USB in Ableton, using the Max4Live arp tool, then sending the midi back to the Rev2 via USB. It's a bit annoying to have to do this, but the advantage is being able to do more complex arps with velocity, swing and notes.
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It's basically working in the Prophet X now (Although not in the 1.0 release it will be released soon) and it should get ported back to some of our older instruments, namely the Rev2, OB6 and P6
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It's basically working in the Prophet X now (Although not in the 1.0 release it will be released soon) and it should get ported back to some of our older instruments, namely the Rev2, OB6 and P6
YAY!!!!!!!!! Glad to hear that there might be some updates for some of DSI's older gear. Hopefully this includes the sequencer transposing without having to hold down the record button.
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It's basically working in the Prophet X now (Although not in the 1.0 release it will be released soon) and it should get ported back to some of our older instruments, namely the Rev2, OB6 and P6
Very good to hear that! Would it be technically possible to port this feature to Prophet 12 and Pro 2?
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Another vote for this to be applied to the Rev2 and the Pro2 please :)
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It's basically working in the Prophet X now (Although not in the 1.0 release it will be released soon) and it should get ported back to some of our older instruments, namely the Rev2, OB6 and P6
Best news ever ! I can’t wait to play with it !
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I find that such a feature would certainly be useful for using the Arp as a live performance oriented feature for sure... and honestly, it cannot be the most complicated feature to add... the ARP is already there, and it's basically just a bit of code to delay the start of a held chord so that they fall precisely on the internal (or external) tempo.
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+1 me2 really would love beat syncing and root note arp
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Not sure I'm interpretting the manually correctly, but wouldn't sending a 5V clock pulse to the SEQUENCER jack (and having Trigger set in the Global Settings) beat sync by advancing the arp/sequencer steps in time to the pulse? You wouldn't have to "start" the arp with the keyboard I don't think.
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Not sure I'm interpretting the manually correctly, but wouldn't sending a 5V clock pulse to the SEQUENCER jack (and having Trigger set in the Global Settings) beat sync by advancing the arp/sequencer steps in time to the pulse? You wouldn't have to "start" the arp with the keyboard I don't think.
Yes you can already use the SEQUENCER jack to achieve arps that are perfectly synced to the received clock pulses.
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Not sure I'm interpretting the manually correctly, but wouldn't sending a 5V clock pulse to the SEQUENCER jack (and having Trigger set in the Global Settings) beat sync by advancing the arp/sequencer steps in time to the pulse? You wouldn't have to "start" the arp with the keyboard I don't think.
Yes you can already use the SEQUENCER jack to achieve arps that are perfectly synced to the received clock pulses.
Will they Beat Sync though?
1. setup 5V audio pulse (coming from drum machine, which is also the master MIDI clock for brevity sake) into SEQUENCER jack configured as Trigger in Global REV2 settings.
2. Turn on a simple 4/4 groove drum machine. Bob head.
3. Turn arpeggiator on REV2.
4. Play a chord on REV2 that's slightly late to the "1" on a 4/4 groove.
Will the arp play immediately, in real-time, and therefore out of sync or will it wait until the next pulse is received?
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A new note from your arp will sound every time a pulse is received. It's always in sync with the received pulse.
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A new note from your arp will sound every time a pulse is received. It's always in sync with the received pulse.
Ok, so in my scenario, the first note will be off, but subsequent notes will be in sync?
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It's basically working in the Prophet X now (Although not in the 1.0 release it will be released soon) and it should get ported back to some of our older instruments, namely the Rev2, OB6 and P6
This is awesome news, thanks!!!! Digging the new encoder behavior as well, I really appreciate all the work you all are doing to perfect this beast. Love it!
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and honestly, it cannot be the most complicated feature to add... the ARP is already there, and it's basically just a bit of code to delay the start of a held chord so that they fall precisely on the internal (or external) tempo.
W.r.t. to beat sync: I don't think it's that trivial to be honest. If you need to delay the start of a held chord, there's the need to "remember" that last held chord while something new is pressed already, and the need to ignore any new key presses during that delay (ignore only for sound generation, not ignoring it for adding it in some "prepare for execution buffer"). I wouldn't be surprised if this actually requires a different basic design of the synthesizer.
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Got my Keystep unboxed, fired up tonight. Ran Sync Out to Sequencer In on the REV2, set Global to Trigger. Beautiful beat sync.
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Got my Keystep unboxed, fired up tonight. Ran Sync Out to Sequencer In on the REV2, set Global to Trigger. Beautiful beat sync.
I am quite new to Synthesis and want to ask you which cable are u using to synch the beatstep to the rev 2? Thank you in advance.
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I see Pro 2 now has arp beat sync - any chance this is coming to the Prophet 6 too? Pleaaaase!!?
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the pro 2 has beat sync now! now we only need it for the p12, rev2, p6 and ob6 and my life is LOVE
*although i will soon find more things to complain about. you guys at DSI are doing an amazing job! thank you for all the work you are doing with your synths! past and present <3
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They said it’s in the works.
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Good to know it's in the works. I was about to make a Max for Live patch to delay incoming notes, but I prefer being lazy and just wait then !
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So the beat sync only works with an incomming clock signal?
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So the beat sync only works with an incomming clock signal?
The Beat Sync as it stands works perfectly with an incoming clock into the Sequencer jack (and the global menu setting: "Sequencer Jack: Trigger").
Mine's hooked up to my KeyStep's Sync Out jack (which is configured as the master clock; it's also sending out MIDI clock to other devices).
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and what about Prophet 08? Any suggestion about how to do it? As far as I know there´s no any implementation for this model. It looks like the ugly duckling of sequential.. :(
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So... does this work with gated sequencer as well?
Beat sync quantizes your performance from the keyboard, and whether or not to include such a behavior is actually a bit of a philosophical question.
Are you all aware that you can "clock" the arp and poly sequencer from the sequencer jack in the Prophet Rev2 (the P6/OB-6 and PDJ AS-1 also feature the sequencer jack)? This is achieve with any 0-5 VDC signal with a sharp transient edge, such as the trigger out from another synth/drum machine, a rimshot or similar sound from a drum machine that has individual voice outs, or an "analog" clock pulse from the eurorack world or some other piece of gear that features such an output. There are also dedicated devices out there that will convert MIDI clock to trigger pluses, like some of the Kenton boxes or the Future Retro Swynx.
When triggered in this manner, the arp/poly sequencer will always be perfectly in sync with the pulse received at the sequencer jack (with the global setting for the jack set to "trigger").