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SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Tempest => Topic started by: MILANM20 on June 23, 2017, 12:55:09 PM

Title: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: MILANM20 on June 23, 2017, 12:55:09 PM
Hey Guys, So I have been using my Tempest to add drum sounds into Ableton by recording the audio into Ableton Live and then adding the audio into a drum rack. However every drum sound is followed by an annoying loud analogue noise :( Is there anyway I can get rid of this analogue noise it distracts from the drum sound. Sounds like air or something.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: AdamXAudio on June 23, 2017, 01:05:37 PM
Hey Guys, So I have been using my Tempest to add drum sounds into Ableton by recording the audio into Ableton Live and then adding the audio into a drum rack. However every drum sound is followed by an annoying loud analogue noise :( Is there anyway I can get rid of this analogue noise it distracts from the drum sound. Sounds like air or something.

Is the Tempest's compressor or distortion turned up a lot?  That will definitely bring up the noise level and if so, you might want to back the compressor off a bit. 
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: MILANM20 on June 23, 2017, 01:14:39 PM
NOPE! none of them are turned on :( it is so annoying! I love the sounds but then in Ableton I hear the noise too much! I have tried to use the gate in Ableton but it takes away the essence of sound :(
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: dslsynth on June 23, 2017, 01:26:34 PM
Using USB/MIDI for connecting Tempest to your computer? Noise in this case is a well known problem. Do you have one of these USB insulator cables or a USB/MIDI to MIDI DIN adapter you can use instead?
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: MILANM20 on June 23, 2017, 02:28:57 PM
I connect my usb from the back of the tempest into my laptop? and connect the main out into my scarlett interface. What shall i do??
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: RobH on June 23, 2017, 03:34:55 PM
I have a focusrite interface, a 18i20 and it also suffers from noise, its a combination of the Tempest analog and the focusrite inputs i've complained about this my own soundcard on here before for this reason.

edit- if you removed the usb/midi cable from the Tempest does the noise go away? or dramatically reduce in volume?

You need to work out first if it is a usb feedback loop
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: Yorgos Arabatzis on June 23, 2017, 03:46:54 PM
I bet if you unplug laptop's power supply and left only running with the battery the noise will disappear :)
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: MILANM20 on June 23, 2017, 04:44:19 PM
I tried both and removing the USB is a bit better in terms of the sound not being as loud, however the laptop removal of the charger didn't make a difference! So i win the bet lol! Seriously though, i love the drum sounds so much it's just a shame they get overtaken by this stupid noise. Not good in a mix!
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: extempo on June 23, 2017, 04:59:39 PM
Here's our general USB Ground Loop troubleshooting guide:

This sounds like a ground loop. Try changing your plug configurations for the synth and your laptop, i.e. try unplugging your laptop from the wall and see if the problem still exists, and try plugging your DSI synth and the computer into the same outlet. You can also try using a surge protector/power conditioner, try powering your audio interface with a wall plug if it is bus powered normally, try plugging your DSI synth into a different USB port, use a different or shielded USB cable, or try a USB hub if you haven't already.

If none of the above suggestions work, users have had good results using the following method. You must have an extra USB cable you don't mind modifying:

____

* Using wire strippers and/or wire cutters, Strip away a 10-15mm section of the rubber coating in the middle of the USB cable to expose the braided shielding.
* With the wire cutters, carefully cut the shielding away entirely, exposing the 4 wires surrounded by the shield.
* Make sure the shield is completely disconnected. Verify this by testing for continuity on both metal ends of the cable.
* Cut the black wire, which is connected to pin #4 and represents ground. This creates a "ground-lift".
* Fold the ground wire back and out of the way, then wrap the exposed section of the USB cable with electrical tape. Your ground noise should be gone.

____

If you'd rather not try a DIY fix, some companies also make USB signal isolators. Here are some examples:

**USA:** USB signal isolator: http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=3769

**EU:**  USB signal isolator: http://electronics-shop.dk/isolated_serial.htm?currency=EUR


You can read more about locating and eliminating ground loops in your system at the following web link (PDF file):

http://www.davesmithinstruments.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Understanding-and-Eliminating-Ground-Loops.pdf
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: Shea on June 23, 2017, 06:11:43 PM
Just set the tempos the same and record without syncing. Then warp in ableton. You have to warp anyway.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: Yorgos Arabatzis on June 24, 2017, 02:17:09 AM
Are you using any kind of compression/limiting either on Tempest or your DAW?And when you monitor/record T inside Ableton what's your peak (db)?
I tried both and removing the USB is a bit better in terms of the sound not being as loud, however the laptop removal of the charger didn't make a difference! So i win the bet lol! Seriously though, i love the drum sounds so much it's just a shame they get overtaken by this stupid noise. Not good in a mix!
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: idm on June 24, 2017, 03:17:36 PM
Check in the system menu if the compressor works per beat or by project. The compressor at zero means nothing if you saved a beat / project with it turned on. Try opening and closing it and record again. :)
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: MILANM20 on June 24, 2017, 07:04:26 PM
thanks for all your reply guys! It is really warming! So i have set the compression and distortion to zero and it still makes this analogue noise. I have tried using limiter and compressor in Ableton but compressor seems to make it worse and limiter just takes out the essence of the sound. I don't know why they didn't think this through when making this machine? I love the sounds but it's not going to be useful if you hear the background noise when recording it in :(
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: MILANM20 on June 24, 2017, 07:18:58 PM
I just want to make music and this problem is really upsetting me!!  :( :( :( :( :(...I don't know what to do?
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: MILANM20 on June 24, 2017, 07:28:34 PM
here is an example of the sound
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: RobH on June 25, 2017, 05:38:06 AM
This is a recording of a snare i made in the last few days, my chain goes Tempest > WA76 > 18i20 (line input not mic preamp) right now. I can't recall if using the mic preamps was noisier or not without testing it again.

Anyway, I found turning up the Tempest and turning down the focusrite input gain knob helps, try using setting the gain input to around 12 o'clock.

At the moment my input gain on the soundcard is set to nearly minimum and i make up all the gain with my compressor, there is some noise, its an analog system and i don't have a proper studio or anything i working from home.

Without testing again i cannot recall how i worked out to get the noise floor lower but its some trial and error basically trying different settings and maybe change usb sockets, try recording on desktop PC and see if that makes any difference.

Also are you using balanced cables?

edit - One thing is i do remember being put off focusrite soundcards for good after battling the noise problem in the past i do recall it being nearly as bad as what you posted maybe with a little less distortion but a definite noise through the recordings. 100% I will be putting my money towards an RME next time. Setting the input to 12o'clock should help some and make the gain up with a compressor in the box or some other gain utility. Soime noise you just have to live with i'm afraid.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: Yorgos Arabatzis on June 25, 2017, 06:25:55 AM
Why turning up the gain?Just crank Tempest's master out so that hits around 0db on your DAW..That's ABC stuff for audio recording..
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: RobH on June 25, 2017, 08:02:53 AM
Why turning up the gain?Just crank Tempest's master out so that hits around 0db on your DAW..That's ABC stuff for audio recording..

Er isn't that what i said? Sometimes i record the drums and they are not loud enough once other sounds get vst's etc on them so i make up the gain etc with a  compressor.

I said i turn the Tempest up and turn my gain knob down to reduce the noise. Basically what you are saying i am doing except i use the compressor to take it 0db instead of the soundcard because it adding horrible noise. Maybe gain is the wrong term i don't know.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: idm on June 25, 2017, 09:08:03 AM
Maybe this helps for the OP:

When you record, you have to make sure your input is loud enough so you don't have to worry about the noise level. This is why you want to record at 24bit, because the signal to noise ratio is a lot better than at 16bit.

When you record  at a low level and then boost the recording after the fact with a compressor or other tool, you change nothing of the signal accept the volume. So any noise in the recording just gets louder with the signal.

When you output low level from your synth and boost it with the input gain knob on your interface, you are more or less doing the same thing. Except you also add extra noise from the audio interface, and maybe badly isolated cables etc.

The trick is to gain stage correctly. So that means higher the output volume of the gear you are recording. Loud enough so no noise is noticeable. At 24 bit you can record at lower input levels before noise is heard than at 16bit, hence it being preferable. Less chance to clipping.

Hope this helps ;)
Oh and it's better to mix your levels at - 6db in software.this gives you more headroom at the master. I even mix at around - 12db.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: Yorgos Arabatzis on June 25, 2017, 02:34:34 PM
Basically you have to design your sounds loud enough so you won't need any additional compression or gain to reach around 0db on your recordings..That way you have the most optimal signal to noise ration you can get..My levels (mixer,volume,velocity etc.) are all cranked up inside T..
As for mixing in your DAW -6db on your master it's the ideal for the headroom as idm suggested above ^
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: Shea on June 26, 2017, 09:03:18 AM
You do have to be careful maxing out volume on the T though, because things will start to clip, especially with the digital sine wave, and especially when played polyphonically.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: Yorgos Arabatzis on June 26, 2017, 03:45:18 PM
Not having these kind of issues and trust me i'm really squeezing that headroom..Just be careful with the master out..
You do have to be careful maxing out volume on the T though, because things will start to clip, especially with the digital sine wave, and especially when played polyphonically.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: onesnzeros on June 29, 2017, 09:42:14 PM
I'm running all voices out separately, but only the left channel of each voice for now...
Directly into my RME Fireface 400
At unity the meter in Live is reading 0.00 but it doesn't seem to clip.
I just pull the fader in Ableton down to a manageable volume and done.
Although I have 24 bits, I'm not in the habit of wasting too many of them.
If you're working so far under 0.00, you're effectively reducing your bit-rate.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: idm on June 30, 2017, 12:26:50 AM
No, you're not. That's not how it works. :). If you record something at 24  bit and very very low in amplitude, it's not suddenly 8 bit or something like that.

@ 24 bit recording highly dynamic sounds is just the way the go because recording at lower levels (-6db or - 12db even) has no negative impact on your sound.

Recording something really loud into ableton and lowering the track volume is the opposite of how you would record something as clean as possible. I guess RME has some incredible hi-gain inputs so that's what is saving your sound. But it's certainly not how you cleanly record sounds. You are just smashing hi gain sound through the inputs and then lower the gain in software. There's no good reason to do that.

I use proper gain staging so I can leave my level faders in my DAW at their default value. Recording the signal so it hits - 12db max, works perfectly fine, and if the signal then has a peak, it has 12 db of headroom for it not to clip. Which is just convenient.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: muleskinner on June 30, 2017, 12:58:07 AM
It's on the Tempest where you have to worry about the levels being high enough. You can leave a lot of headroom at the AD stage if recording in 24bit as others have said.

I never have a problem with noise (other than what one would expect in the analog domain) unless using loads of compression or distortion but, again, that is to be expected.

At the risk of repeating what others have said.

- Make sure Tempest mixer levels are maxxed out.

- Make sure 'amount' on 'amp env' is set to max (127), or at least as high as you can get away with if you're doing samples at different velocities.

- If the sound is mono record one channel and pan hard left or right. Don't set the mixer panned centre as that will decrease gain on each channel (I'm pretty sure the T applies some kind of pan law from memory).

- Use the individual voice outs, this could be my imagination but they always seem hotter and clearer to me than the main outs.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: Yorgos Arabatzis on June 30, 2017, 02:24:50 AM
I don't know where you've heard these things but they're not correct..At least in my audio engineer school (SAE) we've been instructed to record signals around 0db (of course not clipping).Your individual track levels must be recorded around 0db and do your mixing so your master hits around -6db.Then stick your compressors/mastering chains to boost it up to 0db..24bit recordings are always better cause they lift up the dynamic range but don't get fooled if you're recording at lower levels and want to go to 0db with compression etc.you're also lifting up that noise floor.

Cheers!
No, you're not. That's not how it works. :). If you record something at 24  bit and very very low in amplitude, it's not suddenly 8 bit or something like that.

@ 24 bit recording highly dynamic sounds is just the way the go because recording at lower levels (-6db or - 12db even) has no negative impact on your sound.

Recording something really loud into ableton and lowering the track volume is the opposite of how you would record something as clean as possible. I guess RME has some incredible hi-gain inputs so that's what is saving your sound. But it's certainly not how you cleanly record sounds. You are just smashing hi gain sound through the inputs and then lower the gain in software. There's no good reason to do that.

I use proper gain staging so I can leave my level faders in my DAW at their default value. Recording the signal so it hits - 12db max, works perfectly fine, and if the signal then has a peak, it has 12 db of headroom for it not to clip. Which is just convenient.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: onesnzeros on June 30, 2017, 02:36:10 AM
No, you're not. That's not how it works. :). If you record something at 24  bit and very very low in amplitude, it's not suddenly 8 bit or something like that.

@ 24 bit recording highly dynamic sounds is just the way the go because recording at lower levels (-6db or - 12db even) has no negative impact on your sound.

Recording something really loud into ableton and lowering the track volume is the opposite of how you would record something as clean as possible. I guess RME has some incredible hi-gain inputs so that's what is saving your sound. But it's certainly not how you cleanly record sounds. You are just smashing hi gain sound through the inputs and then lower the gain in software. There's no good reason to do that.

I use proper gain staging so I can leave my level faders in my DAW at their default value. Recording the signal so it hits - 12db max, works perfectly fine, and if the signal then has a peak, it has 12 db of headroom for it not to clip. Which is just convenient.

You're wrong.
If you're not using the 24 bits of amplitude resolution, then you are effectively lowering your bit rate. Record as hot as you can, without clipping, then lower the volume. Recording at 12 dB under, then boosting the volume of the file, is effectively increasing your noise floor by 12 dB. The way you describe is definitely NOT the way to get the clearest recording. We're talking about digital audio files, which are 'clearest' at their loudest point. Analog however would be cleaner around the -12dB mark.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: onesnzeros on June 30, 2017, 02:39:00 AM
and I'm not saying that 'all of a sudden your file is 8-bit'...
but you WOULD actually be only utilising 8-bits of your available 24.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: muleskinner on June 30, 2017, 03:29:06 AM
and I'm not saying that 'all of a sudden your file is 8-bit'...
but you WOULD actually be only utilising 8-bits of your available 24.

Not true. You would have to be recording at ridiculously low levels to only be utilising 8 bits, something like -100db.

-12b in a 24bit system is nothing. Generally your tracks will have to be reduced by at least this anyway so as to leave a decent amount of dynamic range on the master bus.

So, whilst it is technically 'best' to record as hot as possible, there's no sense being paranoid about it. It's far worse to find your recording's been clipping accidentally. DO get the output from the Tempest as hot as possible, DON'T sweat it too much about getting the input level too close to 0db on your audio interface. Unless your audio interface has ridiculously high noise floor it will make no difference.

Here's a good article about bit depth and dynamic range and why you shouldn't sweat it too much:

http://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/the-24bit-delusion/

I've done tests in the digital domain using Logic (which admittedly is a 32bit system) reducing track levels by well below realistic levels (I can't remember exactly what I did but it was stupid amounts), increasing gain back to the original level and then phase-reversing with the original signal to check noise floor and it was well below what would be perceptible at anything like normal listening levels.

Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: idm on June 30, 2017, 04:16:57 AM
^ this.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: monsters on June 30, 2017, 04:53:03 AM
Yorgos Arabatzis :

I don't know where you've heard these things but they're not correct..At least in my audio engineer school (SAE) we've been instructed to record signals around 0db (of course not clipping).Your individual track levels must be recorded around 0db and do your mixing so your master hits around -6db..

^


This right here is why my mentor and so many others stopped taking on students from schools. Very sad they do/still teach kids this way. Audio learned from a book.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: muleskinner on June 30, 2017, 05:48:33 AM
The reason people probably still have this paranoia about recording as close to 0db as possible is that they come from the 'old school' days of tape where the medium you were recording on to had an inherent noise floor that was really quite significant so you needed to get as far above that as you could.

There is no such issue with 24bit digital recording. Yes, there will be some in the analog components of your audio interface but it would really have to be a pretty crappy audio interface for 12db to make any difference.

The noise floor in the Tempest though is significant, so that's why you want to boost the signal out of the T as high as possible before it goes anywhere else!
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: Yorgos Arabatzis on June 30, 2017, 06:01:49 AM
In fact we've learned at SAE to edit first in tape and then we moved to DAWs so i guess i'm old school ;)
The reason people probably still have this paranoia about recording as close to 0db as possible is that they come from the 'old school' days of tape
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: DavidDever on June 30, 2017, 06:03:56 AM
Yorgos Arabatzis :

I don't know where you've heard these things but they're not correct..At least in my audio engineer school (SAE) we've been instructed to record signals around 0db (of course not clipping).Your individual track levels must be recorded around 0db and do your mixing so your master hits around -6db..

^


This right here is why my mentor and so many others stopped taking on students from schools. Very sad they do/still teach kids this way. Audio learned from a book.

Every audio interface + input signal path + ADC will be different as is each design; clearly, it's good and recommended to get a "decent" amount of dynamic range for individual tracks within your DAW, though there are some situations where the analogue input circuitry of your audio interface might in fact overload (in some cases, intentionally) or soft-clip before 0dB FS is reached.

You have to experiment to find the best possible balance, as with anything audio-related.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: onesnzeros on June 30, 2017, 07:54:05 AM
getting taken out of context here. especially with this "8-bit" shenanigans.
whatever, all I'm saying is, to make the most of your bits, friggon USE them.
if everything you do only makes a tiny bit of difference, in the end - it all adds up.
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: idm on June 30, 2017, 09:06:13 AM
getting taken out of context here. especially with this "8-bit" shenanigans.
whatever, all I'm saying is, to make the most of your bits, friggon USE them.
if everything you do only makes a tiny bit of difference, in the end - it all adds up.

Again... This is not how things work. Please read the article a couple of posts above, it explains it very well.

For you to enjoy every single "bit" at 24bit, you'd have to play your recordings, that you smashed as loud as possible into your DAW, back at eardeafening level. It makes no sense.

 For recording purposes it is useful to record at 24bit because you can record at lower levels without hearing noise which you would get when you'd record at low levels @ 16 bit. This doesn't mean you lose bits. It's a really strange way to put it, and it's just plain wrong. Nobody is recording @ - 48db here, you understand? :)

Recording something at 8bits will yield completely different results than recording at incredible low levels (and by that I mean - 60db or less). So recording at - 12db is not a problem at all and has 0,0 influence on your sound, the chance of clipping is reduced though, which is the whole point.

SAE can say what they want (a very very long time ago though... I'm sure they don't teach it like that anymore). Mixing  at 0db is a must on analog mixing tables, not in the digital world. You're better of keeping your channels at - 6db or even - 12 db, as it has zero influence on your sound, other than giving you way more headroom at the master channel.
I studied music production as well,  recorded many bands, and mix and master electronic music pretty regularly for other producers. So I'm not  making this stuff up on the spot ;)

Hope I don't sound too annoyed haha. Don't mean it ike that ;)
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: DavidDever on June 30, 2017, 11:14:10 AM
So recording at - 12db is not a problem at all and has 0,0 influence on your sound, the chance of clipping is reduced though, which is the whole point.

Agreed - it may be the only safe way to avoid clipping in both the analogue and digital domains. Even if you believed that you "lose" a relatively few bits of resolution in reduced dynamic range, you'd still be getting a 20-bit signal, which (with higher sample rates) is plenty fine enough for multitrack audio recording. (In practice, you don't actually lose any bits.)
Title: Re: Adding drum sounds from the Tempest into Ableton without analog noise?!
Post by: onesnzeros on July 01, 2017, 05:41:46 AM
again, you're taking what i'm saying, and arguing out of context