The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Other Hardware/Software => Topic started by: Sacred Synthesis on December 10, 2015, 11:07:18 AM
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Not to take away from an otherwise excellent little synthesizer, but these videos - produced by a very knowledgeable synthesist - give a good example of the Mother-32's poor tracking that I referred to elsewhere on this forum. Even within a very limited range, the tuning is just terrible. I can't stand listening to it. Perhaps a potentiometer can adjust this, but why is it that so few owners have done so? I've found many other videos that show the same tuning problem. I wonder if any M-32 owners here can tell us for certain if the tracking is adjustable?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FicsoscQS4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdszMgkfdkQ
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I have listened to the two demos, and yes... there are some tuning problems, especialy in video no. two... but I really don't think that this tuning problem is the fault of the Mother 32, but rather the user... He is using three separate Mother32s, and he is not tuning them very well to each other.... but if you listen to the sound of a single unit, using it's built in sequencer, then the notes are on target tone wise... you do not hear any note tuning problems in relastion to individual notes from the sequencers at all.... at least I don't hear any, and I have a rather fine hearing when it comes to that... I almost returned my new Sub37 because I heard deviances in it within a +/- 10 cents... just showed out to be the Sub37's "Slop" parameter in action.
I'm pretty certain that the tuning errors you hear is from unit to unit, not being tuned well to each other... it's just a matter of finetuning the "Tune" knob on each.... but other factors can introduce tuning problems, like extreme Pulsewidth modulation, and even a resonant filter can sometimes sound a bit "off"... especialy when the filter is almost closed.
I hardly believe that a quality company like MOOG would let such a product get away with tuning problems... it would render the device useless...
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Another thing about tuning on MOOGs is, that sometimes, if you want to detune one oscillator to another, you only have positive tuning... so if you, say; have three oscillators going, and you want them detuned, then it will sound a bit off in relation to other sounds simply because oscillator two is for example, tuned +10 cents, and the third at +20 ... that will make the whole combined sound, sound like it's pitched with a fundamental that is the average of the three... at +10 cents... on other synths you can have one tuned at 0 cents, and the two others at -10 and +10 cents, leaving the fundamental to be at 0 cents ... the average.
I don't know if Mother 32 has both positive and negative tuning on the tune knob... if not, this could have some influence... even if the Mother32 does have both negative and positive tuning, the user may have tuned them only in the positive direction.
I have this problem with Sub37... simply because oscillator 1 cannot be detuned at all.... only oscillator 2 can be detuned... even though it can be detuned both positive and negative, then detuning oscillator two will also move the average tuning with it... I cannot choose to tune oscillator 2 to +20 cents, and oscilltor 1 to -10 cents.... which would be the best.... instead I will have to use the main detune knob to shift the average back down to 0 cents... makes it a bit more complicated...
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Even I could detect some "bagpipe feel" in the first video (before I got bored), Sacred Synthesis! :o
What you could do Razmo is to look for the global detune and set that to -5 to -10 cents depending on what you want to archive. So its doable. If there is no global detune but MIDI Tuning Standard support then that is an option too!
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I'm not at all concerned about the tuning of one instrument or oscillator in relation to another. That obviously would be a non-issue. The instruments are out of tune as well, but I'm referring only to the keyboard oscillator tracking of an individual instrument by itself, even within a single octave. Maybe I could find other videos that make it clearer than these two.
I would normally attribute the problem to a particular unit or a particular synthesist, but I've heard the same problem now in a number of M-32 videos. I've never noticed such a problem in other synthesizer videos to this extent.
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One option could be to send Moog a support request on this and ask if this is a general problem and if there is an adjustment option inside the box? Hopefully you will get a useful response.
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Even I could detect some "bagpipe feel" in the first video (before I got bored), Sacred Synthesis! :o
What you could do Razmo is to look for the global detune and set that to -5 to -10 cents depending on what you want to archive. So its doable. If there is no global detune but MIDI Tuning Standard support then that is an option too!
That was exactly what I wrote in my comment :D ... but it is a bit circumstancial to have to do it this way, as you have to constantly adjust two knobs to even it out... but there is no other way around it really, and it usualy is like this on MOOG synths... Minitaur has the same problem, and the Slim Phatty too...
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I honestly do not hear any tracking problems... but your ears could be more sensitive than mine... but if there are a tracking problem, it could very well be down to simple heat... it's a 100% analog device as far as I know... I'm not sure about the sequencer though.
But after looking at pictures of the Mother32, I can see that there are no pitch tracking knob... this hints me that there must be some sort of callibration routine in a micro controller somewhere under the hood for the sequencers notes, with some button combination to initiate this callibration, because if not... then I'll consider this device pretty useless...
Heat would certainly be able to make tracking a little unstable I'm sure...
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Allright... I checked the online manual... the Mother32 has 4 small holes in it's front plate, that hold callibration pots beneath them... these are used to callibrate the VCO, so I'll bet that the guy in the video needs to perform such a callibration.
Heat will allways be an issue with analog gear, we all know that... you need to leave the device on for about half an hour, in the environment it is supposed to be used in, so that it has reached operating temperature... then do a callibration.
I recallibrate even my Prophet 12 quite often, simply because the resonant filter gets out of tune... I often play the resonant filter as a sine oscillator, and it's often out of tune, either because I've moved the P12 from one place to another, or simply because the ambient temperature has changed.
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Allright... I checked the online manual...
Hey, that's cheating! . o O ( :-X )
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That certainly could explain it, but it's still surprising. I listen to VCO synth videos all the time - including Model D and modular videos - and I never hear such tracking problems. I mean, who owns a VCO synth and doesn't know about the warm-up issues? And then there was my own Voyager with less than stellar tracking. I'm no longer the Moog fan that I used to be, so I'm cautious with their instruments.
I still would like to see comments from some one who owns an M-32 and can comment on the issue, including how stable the instrument is after 30-40 minutes of warm-up time.
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I've seen tuning problems with other MOOG products before... Slim Phatty for example... The Sub37 though is solid enough to my ears... My SLim Phatty was also fine, also my Minitaur... I don't know if there are a problem specificly related to the Mother32, as I do not have one to test myself... but the Mother32 IS quite inexpensive, compared to being a MOOG product... maybe they have cut some corners in the curcuit design, though I hardly believe so.
Maybe the best way to find out is to ask MOOG directly about it... they should know.... or ask in the MOOG forum... this is a DSI forum afterall, so you'll probably have a better chance at the MOOG forum, getting the answer you seek...
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I'm not registered with the Moog Forum, nor do I see a specific discussion there on the topic. Maybe I'll ask the video-makers about it.
I'd agree that Moog did a stellar job with the Sub 37. If the keyboard were just a tad longer, and if the instrument had a means of delaying vibrato by some means other than after touch, I'd probably buy one. If Moog makes a module version, then I'll be all-the-more interested. I really do like the sound and lay out of it.
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I have a few Voltage control based oscillators and they all need calibrating every so often, it's the nature of the beasts.
As long as the tuning discrepancy is linear then it is simple to calibrate them with a pot.
If it is not linear then you need some form of voltage mapping, I don't know of any hardware that can do this but there is CV control software on computers that can do this (like Volca or SilentWay). I have knocked up some Reaktor stuff for controlling CV Oscillators that works in this way by creating a tuning map by sweeping the oscillator over its voltage range while "listening" to the oscillators frequency to work out the voltage offsets to keep in in tune. The tuning map is then used to map the ideal CV to the correct CV for that oscillator.
I would guess the Mother problems are linear so people just need to tune them.
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I'm not registered with the Moog Forum, nor do I see a specific discussion there on the topic. Maybe I'll ask the video-makers about it.
I'd agree that Moog did a stellar job with the Sub 37. If the keyboard were just a tad longer, and if the instrument had a means of delaying vibrato by some means other than after touch, I'd probably buy one. If Moog makes a module version, then I'll be all-the-more interested. I really do like the sound and lay out of it.
Every parameter in the Sub37 can be used as a destination for the modulation sections 1 & 2 ... You could potentialy set up mod bus 1 to use an envelope as it's source, and route that to mod bus 2's Pitch amount parameter... that would give you not only delayed vibrato but also faded in vibrato, since the envelopes of the Sub37 have a hold parameter... even a Peak Hold parameter too.
Alternatively you can use a mod.bus with it's source selection set to an envelope, and then just switch on the envelopes loop function, so it will act like an LFO.
But it IS circumstancial, and I aggree that it would be better, if MOOG created a simple delay function.... but I think that this should be very well possible in software... I'll try and ask Amos about it when he gets back to me.
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A small edit to my post above... you cannot use a looped envelope for delayed vibrato, simply because the delay part is part of the loop.... but I tried the other solution of routing the filter EG via mod.bus1 into mod.bus2's Pitch Modulation amount parameter, and it works fine... I get both delay, and fade in with that technique.... the only drawback is that you loose either the VCA or VCF envelope, or at least you have to share them, and also you loose one of the mod bussses, as it needs to route the envelope to the other mod.bus'es pitch mod amount parameter.
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You can control LFO modulation depth with an envelope? See these clips: https://youtu.be/QaiB7WRxxCk?t=14m55s and https://youtu.be/QaiB7WRxxCk?t=17m33s. After hearing these comments, I didn't bother to check the manual. So, you can delay a vibrato with an envelope, but the delay parameter doesn't apply?
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You can control LFO modulation depth with an envelope? See these clips: https://youtu.be/QaiB7WRxxCk?t=14m55s and https://youtu.be/QaiB7WRxxCk?t=17m33s. After hearing these comments, I didn't bother to check the manual. So, you can delay a vibrato with an envelope, but the delay parameter doesn't apply?
The delay parameter of the envelope applies... I checked it here with my own Sub37... ALL of the envelopes parameters apply, as it's the envelope output that is routed to modulation bus 2's input (instead of the normal LFO)... so all envelope parameters will have an effect... delay, attack, hold, decay, sustain and release... even the triggering modes and the looping function... anything the envelope does will go to the input of modulation bus 2's input. (when modulation bus 2 is set to use the EG, the LFO is effectively bypassed).
In fact it's not just the envelope you can choose as an input source to a modulation unit... there are many more input sources... even a digital noise generator! ... and the destinations available are staggering... more than 80! ... you can even route modulations to filter slope, sequencer clock divisions... basicaly EVERY PARAMETER in the Sub 37 is a candidate for modulation destination.
Actualy... when you route the filter EG to mod2's input, and then route mod2's output (in this case the filter EG) to the pitch modulation amount of mod1, then the mod wheel function as another attenuator, so that the whole vibrato amount can be controlled via the mod wheel.
The Sub37 is quite capable... problem is that it's not been advertized very well in my opinion... the mod source/destination engine is much MUCH more advanced than any previous MOOG synth in this price range.... kudos to Amos for making this!
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Thanks for the clarification. It only makes sense, which is why I was surprised the Sub 37 didn't have such a basic feature. Batt's comments were a bit confusing.
I really do like the sound of the instrument, and I like the parameter-packed control panel. My only remaining objection is the keyboard size. If Moog made a module version, I could use a Prophet '08 as a controller. But I haven't heard many stirrings about such a module. Or else, imagine a Sub "37" module controlled by a Prophet 6. Now that would be a powerful analog synthesizer!
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Thanks for the clarification. It only makes sense, which is why I was surprised the Sub 37 didn't have such a basic feature. Batt's comments were a bit confusing.
I really do like the sound of the instrument, and I like the parameter-packed control panel. My only remaining objection is the keyboard size. If Moog made a module version, I could use a Prophet '08 as a controller. But I haven't heard many stirrings about such a module. Or else, imagine a Sub "37" module controlled by a Prophet 6. Now that would be a powerful analog synthesizer!
It is doable... but as I stated earlier, it's circumstancial, and not really the best way to get so basic a feature as LFO delay... it takes up both mod busses, and one envelope... of course you can share these, but it does limit you, especialy if you wanted to also use the filter envelope for the filter.
About the keyboard size... I don't need more than 3 octaves, but of course at least 5 would have been much better... I'd be glad if only the 3 octaves it has, actualy had a better feel to them... I find them stiff and spongy, and they take too much pressure to work in my opinion... makes it really hard to do fast playing and still have your timing tight... so I'm using it with another 5 octave keyboard instead, and actualy use the Sub37 as a module.... sure I'd like a module too, but I don't think it will happen... it would take up more space than any other module I've seen, or they'd have to diminish the interface, like they did with the Slim Phatty.
IF a module comes one day, I may swap it... it depends on how used I get to actualy edit it via all the controls... something I've never really done much in the past... I've been using my editors on the computer, but I'm now getting used to using the physical knobs of the Sub37... so I'm not sure I'll be able to live without them... there is something nice about sitting in front of a fully selfcontained instrument, rather than having it split between a computer for editing and the physical device itself... but only if the physical controls are nicely laid out, without too much menu diving.
SO I'd say... IF you decide on getting one... do yourself a favor, and try one out first... you really have to feel the keybed before you buy... just some good advice. Some people like it, others hate it... I'm in the middle of that.
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It is doable... but as I stated earlier, it's circumstancial, and not really the best way to get so basic a feature as LFO delay... it takes up both mod busses, and one envelope... of course you can share these, but it does limit you, especialy if you wanted to also use the filter envelope for the filter.
Seems like we keep running into voice architecture limitations - aka Spoiled By Dave Syndrome (TM) - these years!
. o O ( :o )
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It is doable... but as I stated earlier, it's circumstancial, and not really the best way to get so basic a feature as LFO delay... it takes up both mod busses, and one envelope... of course you can share these, but it does limit you, especialy if you wanted to also use the filter envelope for the filter.
Seems like we keep running into voice architecture limitations - aka Spoiled By Dave Syndrome (TM) - these years!
. o O ( :o )
Yeah... there is always something.... I guess... I just see them as constructive limitations, and it's always satisfying when you find a workaround... even though it's not optimal ;D
Sub37 is one hell of a nice sounding machine... and MOOG really upped the engine compared to earlier gear... and I'm certain, that even if it had a thousand and one parameters to tweak, someone would crave for something it cannot do... that's just how it is... as with music, you cannot please them all...
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Good advice. There' s still much to think about. Buying an instrument is a move that I don't take lightly.
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There's never going to be the perfect one. In the end you just go for what's working for you. At least we have lots of diverse hardware to choose from, opposed to how things were are couple of years ago.
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If the perfect synthesizer doesn't exist unto itself, then you can still combine keyboards and modules to make something pretty close to perfect. In other words, create your own recipe. But even that requires much from each instrument.
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If the perfect synthesizer doesn't exist unto itself, then you can still combine keyboards and modules to make something pretty close to perfect. In other words, create your own recipe. But even that requires much from each instrument.
Sure, which is why we all end up with the setups we have or can afford. When I visited Moog in Asheville this summer and was playing the Voyager XL in their showroom I was thinking that I'd probably have to sell all of my synths to be able to afford one - an instrument that some might consider to be the ultimate mono synth. And while it is indeed a fine instrument that sounds like every dollar you have to pay for it, it is also a bit limited on its own, i.e. without additional modules and/or Moogerfoogers. In my case it would also be a decision against variety. But even if I would decide for variety only in terms of a modular system, even a basic one (let's say 2 rows of 104 HP filled with stuff I find interesting) would cost me my Pro 2 and Sub 37. I don't need hundreds of keyboard controllers, but giving all of them up in favor of a set of modules wouldn't be very satisfying either. So it's all about what complements each other well with regard to personal preferences and needs - some of which we share, some of which we don't share.
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I completely agree with you.
If I bought a Moog - say, a Sub 37 or a 2016 Minimoog Model E (!) - it would be with the intention of adding a self-contained module to it, possibly something totally unlike it, like an Evolver Desktop. If I bought a Pro 2, I would certainly combine it with a strong analog module, such as a SEM. So, I've learned to no longer look at any one instrument as a finished product, but more as the basis for a more complex one. And this only supports my strong preference for a stereo field. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found even the first block in this monophonic combination, and am still waiting for some instrument that strikes me.
I haven't given up entirely on the Prophet 6, even though I recently passed up an opportunity to buy one. But even the P6 would be for me only the first step in a combination.
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a 2016 Minimoog Model E (!)
Ha! Do you know something the rest of us doesn't yet?
I haven't given up entirely on the Prophet 6, even though I recently passed up an opportunity to buy one. But even the P6 would be for me only the first step in a combination.
I see. Well, I purchased something completely different this weekend: a Fender Rhodes Mark I, which wouldn't even fit into the category of this subforum.
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a 2016 Minimoog Model E (!)
Ha! Do you know something the rest of us doesn't yet?
I haven't given up entirely on the Prophet 6, even though I recently passed up an opportunity to buy one. But even the P6 would be for me only the first step in a combination.
I see. Well, I purchased something completely different this weekend: a Fender Rhodes Mark I, which wouldn't even fit into the category of this subforum.
I'm having Minimoog dreams, and they're the only basis for my knowledge - sorry to say!
I had a Rhodes many years ago. What a gorgeous sounding instrument. And great for holding large synthesizers, too.
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I'm having Minimoog dreams, and they're the only basis for my knowledge - sorry to say!
Haha! Never underestimate the secret knowledge of dreams.
I had a Rhodes many years ago. What a gorgeous sounding instrument. And great for holding large synthesizers, too.
I used to own my first Rhodes - a Mark II - in the late 1990s so I'm pretty familiar with it. Dunno what exactly got me into this one. Well, in fact I do: I was listening to David Bowie's new band, which is basically a Jazz band. Apart from being an avid DSI user, the keyboarder, Jason Lindner, is also a Rhodes player. And somehow that got me hooked again. And the fact that there's the company Vintage Vibe these days that is now manufacturing its own electro-mechanical pianos, but started off as a refurbishing company that also offers loads of rebuilt spare parts, which makes owning a vintage Rhodes piano as risky as owning a Fender guitar.
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I can't remember if I had a Mk I or II in about 1985, but I thought it sounded beautiful. An EQ has remarkable effects on it. When you open up the high end, it just sparkles. I also had a Wurlitzer, but I liked the Rhodes more. Make sure you get spare parts for it, though, - especially tines - because you'll be using them!
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I completely agree about the Rhodes and the Wurlitzer. I used to own both too, and figured that I'm more of a Rhodes guy in the end. Vintage Vibe offers nice mods as far as I could see, such as for an improved key action (they can sometimes react a bit sloppy) and also a tube driven pre-amp for the stage model, which might help emphasizing the classic "bark" of the older models. I would also assume that it'll sound nice with the MF-104 analog delay.
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Congratulations with your new old Rhodes, Paul Dither! They sound darn good and I just love that sound! So can I lobby for a jazzy/electronic youtube jam one day with your new Rhodes? ;)
Do you happen to know Rheyne (https://www.youtube.com/user/RheyneMusic/videos)? He quite often puts drive on his Rhodes and it sounds great. Wonder if your MF-104M supports drive too? Also wonder how your Pro 2, Sub 37 and possibly Evolver can process the Rhodes sounds for added fun? There are plenty of options there.
Getting a pile of eurorack modules may sound tempting given how everyone these days seems to be heading in that credit card drain compatible direction. For a really evolved Heinz demanding case of modular runaway made by someone with almost devine powers look no further (https://vimeo.com/139872178).
However with your Pro 2 you already got a synthesizer that interfaces well with eurorack gear. So a single module or two would be plenty. The Moog modular cases are nice and compact but of cause needs a power supply module too.
If I ever manage to get money for a modular setup it would not happen before we get a DSI/MI preset management and CV control module so that all the envelopes, lfos, modulation routings, glide, sequencer etc will be under digital control reachable via MIDI/sysex and one just needs the analog signal path modules. If so I would certainly get myself that AS Synthi filter (http://www.schneidersladen.de/en/analogue-systems-rs-500e.html) just for the (sonic) smell of it!
As for Sacred Synthesis' mention of Minimoog Model E there are some rumors on the net about Moog Music having registered the Minimoog name again. So my guess is that we could very well see Moog going completely vintage at next gearmas! Wonder if it would be completely vintage or would have some kind of digital control too?
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As for Sacred Synthesis' mention of Minimoog Model E there are some rumors on the net about Moog Music having registered the Minimoog name again. So my guess is that we could very well see Moog going completely vintage at next gearmas! Wonder if it would be completely vintage or would have some kind of digital control too?
Yes, that's what I was referring to. I must admit, though, I wouldn't want it to be exactly like the original Model D, so I guess, as an analog purist, I'm somewhat of a traitor. A little digital control sounds good to me, too. Oh boy, the more I think of it, the more I'd like to make a number of changes. An added LFO, rather than sacrificing the third oscillator; a full pulse width range, rather than selected waves; full ADSR envelopes; keyboard after touch Yikes, I'd better stop.
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Hehe! That was the Spoiled By Dave Syndrome (TM) I was referring to earlier on. You see these days there are many more options for CV control and more features are simply needed for modern sound design. In other words I would personally cheers on the sideline about the reissue of the classic Minimoog but honestly I would rather like to see what the knowledge gained by Moog will give of modern products on the longer term. Hopefully they learn something that will make their instruments sound even better!
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Agreed. I'd probably prefer a variation on the Voyager, adding a number of things - such as a second LFO and a better sawtooth wave - while restoring some of the Model D's original flavor. I also missed the Model D's pink noise and A-440 tuning tone. I'm so tempted to buy one of the last Voyagers, but no.
You know what else I so miss about the Model D? It's big glorious knobs. :o They were so much nicer to program with than tiny knobs or sliders. I even wish DSI would return to the Prophet 5 size controls.
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Congratulations with your new old Rhodes, Paul Dither! They sound darn good and I just love that sound! So can I lobby for a jazzy/electronic youtube jam one day with your new Rhodes? ;)
Haha, somehow I was expecting that kind of question. Dunno yet - I do have a Jazz past, though. I have to point out that I only purchased the Rhodes so far, but do not have it at home yet. It's still to be delivered, which also means that not everything is ultimately set yet. When it's not in the promised condition, I would return it, as I don't want to spend a fortune on refurbishing it, especially since I still want a Prophet-6.
Do you happen to know Rheyne (https://www.youtube.com/user/RheyneMusic/videos)? He quite often puts drive on his Rhodes and it sounds great. Wonder if your MF-104M supports drive too? Also wonder how your Pro 2, Sub 37 and possibly Evolver can process the Rhodes sounds for added fun? There are plenty of options there.
I didn't know Rheyne, will check him out. And yes, the MF-104M has the built-in drive, but that might not be necessary in the end, since one of the mods I've been thinking about is this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtCRT71zFag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtCRT71zFag)
Lots of good ideas with regard to the Pro 2 and Sub 37, dslsynth. I didn't even think of that to be honest. But yeah, that definitely would be fun.
Getting a pile of eurorack modules may sound tempting given how everyone these days seems to be heading in that credit card drain compatible direction. For a really evolved Heinz demanding case of modular runaway made by someone with almost devine powers look no further (https://vimeo.com/139872178).
Good stuff, but it'll probably take me years to get there.
However with your Pro 2 you already got a synthesizer that interfaces well with eurorack gear. So a single module or two would be plenty. The Moog modular cases are nice and compact but of cause needs a power supply module too.
True. However, there are lots of nice modules that could take over a complementary function. Stuff I'd be interested in includes Waldorf's nw1, Mutable Instruments' Cloud and Elements, Verbos Electronics' Harmonic Oscillator, and Make Noise's Maths and René to name a few.
As for the Moog cases: Yeah, not including a power supply is kind of a bummer. They are also relatively small and not very practical in terms of transportation. And to get back to topic: I have to say that I'm not overwhelmed by the Mother-32. I mean it looks appealing and sounds nice, but I think its best place is for people, who just start with a system. If I'd be a teenager right now and only had a MiniBrute and stuff like that, I could see myself going there and then follow the modular path. For where I'm now, the Mother-32 is not that appealing, neither would be 2 or 3 Mothers. And although it doesn't sound too shabby, don't expect it to blow you away when it's used dry (i.e. without tons of reverb or delay). Soundwise, instruments like the Korg Odyssey had a bigger effect on me.
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I also missed the Model D's pink noise and A-440 tuning tone.
Speaking of which it would be really great if one could filter the noise pre filter and use filtered noise as modulation sources too. Said in another word: having a noise color parameter would be cool! There are already some features like that in Prophet 12 and Pro 2 but it costs a digital oscillator to use it.
I'm so tempted to buy one of the last Voyagers, but no.
I do understand why you feel tempted by one of the last voyagers. Its a great looking and sounding machine for sure. But honestly it still got software and hardware issues. We don't know what the future holds nor sounds like but I would be surprised if a new high profile keyboard from Moog would be less stable than the mighty Voyager.
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When it's not in the promised condition, I would return it, as I don't want to spend a fortune on refurbishing it, especially since I still want a Prophet-6.
Oh yes, that's always a challenge with old stuff. Were some years ago about to buy an old Oberheim Matrix-6. In the end I picked a yellow box instead but I am still at times thinking about getting an old Matrix-1000.
However, there are lots of nice modules that could take over a complementary function. Stuff I'd be interested in includes Waldorf's nw1, Mutable Instruments' Cloud and Elements, Verbos Electronics' Harmonic Oscillator, and Make Noise's Maths and René to name a few.
And that's the root cause of modular runaway for da eurowrecks! ;) There are indeed many a cool modules out there. After you wrote the above I ended up spending some time looking at reviews for Clouds and Rings both of which are quite interesting. Look, its indeed very dangerous!
In fact I have tried (https://twitter.com/mutable_instrum/status/672920988267487234) to lobby a little for modular features in desktop modules at a well known place. Would be cool to see MI make something really complex as a desktop module even if it did not include all of Braids, Clouds, Elements and Rings in a single voice architecture.
. o O ( droooooooool )
Good stuff, but it'll probably take me years to get there.
My point was that walls of modules covered by thick layers of patch cables may not be the best solution after all. Richard Devine is surely a cool guy and a very talented artist. I am just wondering if creativity would really thrive in such a context where its so difficult to keep an overview of what is really going on?
And to get back to topic: I have to say that I'm not overwhelmed by the Mother-32. I mean it looks appealing and sounds nice, but I think its best place is for people, who just start with a system.
More oscillators could maybe help on the sound quality. Honestly I would prefer if Moog made high quality filter and oscillator modules in eurorack format. Fun exercise for those with a Mother-32: compare the sound quality of it with their other instruments using just a single oscillator and only the envelope/lfo controls featured on Mother-32 too. Would be cool to hear the results!
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And that's the root cause of modular runaway for da eurowrecks! ;) There are indeed many a cool modules out there. After you wrote the above I ended up spending some time looking at reviews for Clouds and Rings both of which are quite interesting. Look, its indeed very dangerous!
Yep!
More oscillators could maybe help on the sound quality. Honestly I would prefer if Moog made high quality filter and oscillator modules in eurorack format. Fun exercise for those with a Mother-32: compare the sound quality of it with their other instruments using just a single oscillator and only the envelope/lfo controls featured on Mother-32 too. Would be cool to hear the results!
I don't think that we've seen the last of Moog going Eurorack. There's definitely more to come. Everything else would be quite stupid of them. They've been late to the game already.
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This is what most disappointed me about Moog: they never produced a self-contained oscillator module. For probably five years now, I've had this happy idea of gradually building up a monophonic synthesizer. My initial plan was to start with a Voyager and add from there; it seemed like the perfect beginning. But I wrongly presumed Moog would eventually offer a complete oscillator in a CP-251 type format. I would have bought several of them and created a beautiful monster of a mono synth. I waited a couple of years with my Voyager, but in vain, and finally sold it. Now I've been wondering about the Vermona 14, but after a full year there's still no sign of it (the last I checked). I've considered all the other popular monos, but none seems to be right as the fundamental building block of this little system.
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One more off topic: the Rhodes will go back. So I'm back at saving up for the Prophet-6 again. 8)
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Gee, that's disappointing, Paul. Was it in unsatisfactory condition, or did you just change your mind?
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Gee, that's disappointing, Paul. Was it unsatisfactory condition, or did you just change your mind?
The former. After I opened the outside tolex covered lid, I recognized that the plastic lid was loose and there were chips of wood all over the outside and inside of the piano.
I then recognized that the damper rail lay diagonally under the harp, where it was stuck. This might have caused some wood to come off the keys. The sustain dowel was also lying somewhere in the case.
Furthermore, roughly 1/3 of the tone bars at the upper end are corroded, two pick-ups didn’t work, the name rail felt was not intact in about the middle third of the piano, and the name plate on the rear was broken.
Apart from that, I discovered that some repair had been done to the outer lid, right above where the plastic lid was patched. And right below that position on the wooden frame of the harp there was a spot that looked like it had been planed off. So basically it looked as if something got through the outer lid, the plastic lid, and then right onto the harp frame. Either something sharp or acid.
But it's okay. I have 3 days to return it and get my money back. Would have been nice, but oh well…
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The joys of "Vintage".
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Well, it was described to be in excellent condition apart from missing the sustain pedal. And indeed most of the outer parts looked pristine. But unless you don't have to replace the tolex, everything cosmetic is cheaper to fix than everything action related.
It's not like nothing could be fixed, it's just that I didn't purchased it based on the condition that I might have to invest about $700 extra. Because this is just an electro-mechanical instrument, I was less intimidated by the fact that it's vintage. There's nothing really complicated about a Rhodes.
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Sounds like you did the right thing, Paul Dither! No point in keeping a potential expensive wreck when there are better condition models out there. Good luck finding a better tasting one in the future. Oh and good luck with that Prophet-6 save up project. I will be really curious to hear after NAMM if you still want a Prophet-6 or one of the new machines flashed at gearmas. Its a little over one month from now!
PS: Right now I cannot get a voice architecture made from various Mutable Instrument eurorack modules combined with analog oscillators and filters out of my head. :o . o O ( what else is new )
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Sounds like you did the right thing, Paul Dither! No point in keeping a potential expensive wreck when there are better condition models out there. Good luck finding a better tasting one in the future. Oh and good luck with that Prophet-6 save up project. I will be really curious to hear after NAMM if you still want a Prophet-6 or one of the new machines flashed at gearmas. Its a little over one month from now!
PS: Right now I cannot get a voice architecture made from various Mutable Instrument eurorack modules combined with analog oscillators and filters out of my head. :o . o O ( what else is new )
Hmm, honestly this is the first time I can't quite imagine what DSI/Sequential are going to come up with. Either something completely different or smaller models of what they've developed so far. The only thing I know is that with a Pro 2 and Prophet-6 combo I wouldn't feel like I'd be missing out something to be honest. Everything that would be missing from that is in the purely digital realm.
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The former. After I opened the outside tolex covered lid, I recognized that the plastic lid was loose and there were chips of wood all over the outside and inside of the piano.
I then recognized that the damper rail lay diagonally under the harp, where it was stuck. This might have caused some wood to come off the keys. The sustain dowel was also lying somewhere in the case.
Furthermore, roughly 1/3 of the tone bars at the upper end are corroded, two pick-ups didn’t work, the name rail felt was not intact in about the middle third of the piano, and the name plate on the rear was broken.
Apart from that, I discovered that some repair had been done to the outer lid, right above where the plastic lid was patched. And right below that position on the wooden frame of the harp there was a spot that looked like it had been planed off. So basically it looked as if something got through the outer lid, the plastic lid, and then right onto the harp frame. Either something sharp or acid.
But it's okay. I have 3 days to return it and get my money back. Would have been nice, but oh well…
You definitely made the right decision. What a lemon. Ah well. Maybe some day you can buy a brand new Rhodes, or a Nord Stage with an emulation.
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The former. After I opened the outside tolex covered lid, I recognized that the plastic lid was loose and there were chips of wood all over the outside and inside of the piano.
I then recognized that the damper rail lay diagonally under the harp, where it was stuck. This might have caused some wood to come off the keys. The sustain dowel was also lying somewhere in the case.
Furthermore, roughly 1/3 of the tone bars at the upper end are corroded, two pick-ups didn’t work, the name rail felt was not intact in about the middle third of the piano, and the name plate on the rear was broken.
Apart from that, I discovered that some repair had been done to the outer lid, right above where the plastic lid was patched. And right below that position on the wooden frame of the harp there was a spot that looked like it had been planed off. So basically it looked as if something got through the outer lid, the plastic lid, and then right onto the harp frame. Either something sharp or acid.
But it's okay. I have 3 days to return it and get my money back. Would have been nice, but oh well…
You definitely made the right decision. What a lemon. Ah well. Maybe some day you can buy a brand new Rhodes, or a Nord Stage with an emulation.
Ha, well I'd rather pay $3.500 for a fully refurbished Rhodes at some point than getting a Nord Stage, which feels kind of cheap to me like all of the Nords. The best piano controllers are still built by Yamaha (CP1) and Kawai (MP series or VPC1).
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Hmm, honestly this is the first time I can't quite imagine what DSI/Sequential are going to come up with. Either something completely different or smaller models of what they've developed so far.
Hehe! I have not entirely given up guessing - except for suspecting it could be a Curtis based machine with both analog and digital oscillators - but I do keep on dreaming about what I want to play with in the future. Also I am very happy I do not have any advance knowledge of what DSI are up to as that would ruin the joy of gearmas.
The Prophet-6 is really nice but imagine not having to chose between voice architectures and sound. ;)
You definitely made the right decision. What a lemon.
:-X . o O ( lemon synthesis )
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There's nothing like the real thing. In general, I don't care at all for emulations, in spite of the convenience of having one keyboard that "does it all". There's something musically depressing about playing a chameleon without a character and sound of its own. What's the point of such an instrument even looking distinctive?
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Hehe! I have not entirely given up guessing - except for suspecting it could be a Curtis based machine with both analog and digital oscillators - but I do keep on dreaming about what I want to play with in the future. Also I am very happy I do not have any advance knowledge of what DSI are up to as that would ruin the joy of gearmas.
The Prophet-6 is really nice but imagine not having to chose between voice architectures and sound. ;)
Oh, I don't feel that way with regard to the Prophet-6. Surely it's relatively simple, but it just sounds great and still offers a wide palette of sounds. If I wanna go more bonkers in terms of modulation options, I can still move over to the Pro 2.
You definitely made the right decision. What a lemon.
:-X . o O ( lemon synthesis )
I'm all up for lemon synthesis! - Might be a great thing for hot summer days.
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There's nothing like the real thing. In general, I don't care at all for emulations, in spite of the convenience of having one keyboard that "does it all". There's something musically depressing about playing a chameleon without a character and sound of its own.
That. And I also always found Nords to be overrated. They all feel cheapish to me. For half the price okay, but I'm not willing to pay 80% for just their particular design.
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My Nord modulars 1&2 are built pretty well I thought, son't seem cheap to me. Never had a single problem with either of them as well.
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I'm all up for lemon synthesis! - Might be a great thing for hot summer days.
I was thinking more in terms of old keyboard and sledge hammers! . o O ( :o ::) 8) )
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Can't speak for the modulars. But whenever I tried out their stage pianos and synths, the keyboard felt really cheap.
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I'm all up for lemon synthesis! - Might be a great thing for hot summer days.
I was thinking more in terms of old keyboard and sledge hammers! . o O ( :o ::) 8) )
Nah, that's much too exhausting.
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Nah, that's much too exhausting.
A good chance to look into generative methods - and robotics! ;D
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Nah, that's much too exhausting.
A good chance to look into generative methods - and robotics! ;D
Okay, but only if I don't find any better way to do a workout.
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Okay, but only if I don't find any better way to do a workout.
Play a real Rhodes piano! ;)
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Okay, but only if I don't find any better way to do a workout.
Play a real Rhodes piano! ;)
No, lift it any carry it at least to the third floor.
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Paul, many moons ago I was lugging around a Rhodes from club to club. I think it weighed about half as much as my old Ford Maverick. It made me seriously consider switching to the fife.
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Ha, yeah I can definitely relate to that even without gigging extensively with a Rhodes in the past.
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I think it's old description as a "suitcase piano" was a bit of a stretch. More like "baby grand"!
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I think it's old description as a "suitcase piano" was a bit of a stretch. More like "baby grand"!
Well, the 'suitcase' version had the amp it was placed upon. The other one is the 'stage' version and only has the legs to stand upon.
Suitcase:
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0666/2821/files/1974_suitcase_web_banner.jpg?17108985349644755596)
Stage:
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0666/2821/files/blue_mk1_banner.png?18423631687891193128)
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Ah...they're both beautiful.
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Very fun thread to read through :)
Re: Standalone Moog Oscillator
I always thought that the MF-107 was capable of acting as an oscillator, albeit paired with some other functions that might not be of interest to someone who just wants an oscillator and add to the cost.
Re: Tuning Analog (Specifically Eurorack)
I think that Eurorack is more finicky than standalone analog synths because each module is pretty much open to the 'elements'. Some of the components are sensitive to heat and therefore things like tuning and tracking can go out of whack along with temperature fluctuations. I suspect that power supplies (and their AC adapters) play a big role in this both in regards to temperature and making sure that it's exactly the right amount of voltage with minimal fluctuation.
A lot of makers like to boast '1v/oct' when they talk about their modules, but it's not always very true as it might be 1v/oct realistically for as little as 2 octaves. Even if the makers don't mention whether a module is 1v/oct, some users will claim that they are. It seems to me that 1. a lot of people tolerate this kind of tuning just like they tolerate distortion (sometimes obviously caused by bad gain staging) and 2. people are not measuring.
While I have all of my equipment hooked up to a rack tuner, I don't expect that most people are as particular. I have noticed a lot of minute things by doing this. I understand that plugging something into an FM jack will likely raise or lower the pitch by 2-5 cents. Obviously that's not a whole lot, but things add up-- especially when you compound that with +/- a few cents due to tracking that isn't 100% perfect.
RE: M32
As for the Mother 32, I would be extremely interested in it was I not already in possession of a decent system for my current intentions. It is also currently the only way to get a Moog filter in Euro. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a modified version, but it's still Moog nonetheless.
OT: Rhodes
I bought a Rhodes Mark II a little over a year ago. I probably paid slightly more than I should have for it, but knowing it was only owned by one person who did not gig with it and the fact that it was in pristine condition is what sold it. At the time I was considering a Rhodes, DSI Prophet 12 (which I had ruled out because of a lack of Linear FM capability), or an NI Komplete keyboard with all the plugins. Even though I'm not the best player, I'm very happy I went with the Rhodes (besides, it's almost hard to sound bad on one!).
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Very fun thread to read through :)
Re: Standalone Moog Oscillator
I always thought that the MF-107 was capable of acting as an oscillator, albeit paired with some other functions that might not be of interest to someone who just wants an oscillator and add to the cost.
Yes, the MF-107 was the closest thing to an independent Moog oscillator, but it had very poor tracking. There's an old YouTube video of a guy trying to use it as a third or fourth oscillator, and he could only get it to track within a small range - maybe an octave or so. Beyond that, it would get terribly out of tune with the synthesizer. Several years ago when I had a Voyager, I was assiduously researching this and the 107 turned out to be entirely unsatisfactory.
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I revisited this thread because I'm revisiting the Mother-32. Turns out that this thread is also full of other interesting off-topic stuff, like how to make due with limited financial resources to get what you want.
Part of the decision-making process involves ruling things out, whittling down the field, and I haven't been very successful at that. I haven't completely ruled out a Pro 2. I haven't completely ruled out a Sub 37. I haven't completely ruled out keeping my Little Phatty forever. And I'm starting to think that maybe an appropriate response to DSI not making a monophonic Prophet 1 is to just get a Prophet 6. Honestly, I haven't even ruled out a Voyager. So basically, nothing is settled, which means that I shall hold and enjoy what I've got.
That's where the Mother-32 comes in. Mothers-32 are cheap enough not to have to wring my hands over it too much, and the sequencer looks like a blast, and it fits into my current interest in CV connections*. It's been about six months since the introduction of the Mother-32. Does anyone here have one?
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* The absence of which being the main arguments against the Sub 37 and Prophet 6, and the reason for the Pro 2 going back on the "maybe" list.
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I was going to write sort of a two-week mini-review of the Mother-32. But I changed my mind. The important thing is that I decided to keep it, meaning that I've registered the warranty and pulled all the little "contact lens" discs off the knobs.
What I wanted to talk about instead was how the Mother-32's design seems to be informed by that of the Desktop Evolver. Both instruments can function as keyboard-driven modules, but really shine as stand-alone instruments. Put them on a desk, alone, with headphones, and make something. Both instruments are deep and friendly toward experimentation and problem-solving. Both are engrossing, and result in lots of lost hours.
The Evolver's sequencer is better, no question about it. I need to keep my manual open to use the Mother-32 sequencer, while I've hardly ever looked at the Evolver's manual. It's really easy to mess up the Mother-32's "save" procedure, for exmple. The keys used in key combinations tend to have very little direct relationship to what the combinations actually do, making them hard to remember. Also, the Mother-32's single sequencer is normaled to the VCO, with no way to disconnect it, limiting its use as a pure modulation source. The Evolver sequencer, on the other hand, is an Evolver sequencer.
The Mother-32, on the other hand, is more open-ended with respect to modulation. The Evolver architecture is source-to-destination, while a semi-modular synth lets you keep the control signals going around in very interesting ways.
As for interface, there's little question that the Mother-32 really shines. I've grown skeptical of the Desktop Evolver's interface recently, so my plan is to sort of build an Evolverish thing (not a direct copy, obviously) in a eurorack format. This means that I'll buy both the DSM-01 Curtis Filter module and the upcoming DSM-03 Feedback module, a sequencer, some control processing modules, and an extra LFO. Will it sound just like an Evolver? Of course not. But the Feedback module, in particular, is very exciting, and sort of encapsulates what I love about the Evolver sound, combined with the Curtis filter. In short, I'm shooting for the essence of the Evolver, for three times the price!
But anyway, if you're wondering about the Mother-32, it's a good buy.
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I just picked one up yesterday. This is a fascinating little piece of equipment to get lost in. Patching these endless loops of signal in, signal out. I actually like the minimalist feature set, you are encouraged to push things to the edge. This is the first time that I hear a Moog in action and there is something to the response of the sound to its controls. This is not a core component of your music creation setup, it is a meditation and study device.
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This is not a core component of your music creation setup, it is a meditation and study device.
If you have more than a few other synths, that may be true. Except Mothers-32 tend to accumulate in groups of two or three, and by the time three are stacked together, that stack becomes something formidable in tone and flexibility. I've admired batteries of three Mothers, and for a while strongly considered one.
For me, the Mother-32 successfully shepherded me into eurorack modular, and now I'm weighing the idea of selling it (after two months!) to expand my modular synth with things I want.
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A firmware update (https://www.moogmusic.com/news/mother-32-firmware-update-now-available) fixed the only flaw in this synth: its inability to ignore MIDI start/stop messages. No longer.