The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Tempest => Topic started by: RobH on April 16, 2017, 09:41:58 AM
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Hi guys, I am making kicks on my Tempest and can not quite achieve the sound that I desire but I know its pretty much through my fault as I am still a novice when it comes to sound design on the Tempest.
https://soundcloud.com/robert-tree-hardy/48-tempest-rec
I can nearly get to the sound that I want but the problem I am having (and the problem seems to happen everytime i design a kick) is that I can't seem to get as smooth a transition as I would like from the initial hit of the kick drum through to the body of the kick drum.
I'm using a hybrid method of using the filters only to start the kickdrum then adding in a little kick and noise digital sampes just a touch to give it some added ooomph, i just can't get the kicks to punch enough as I want without the kick kind of dividing into two parts, if i give some visual indication of what i mean possibly you might be able to help me.
http://imgur.com/OO5jnj6
http://imgur.com/XAvpfqt
The initial hit and the body of the kick don't blend together as much as I'd like and i always get the spike you can see at the start of the kick and it ends up sounding a little high and then a boom rather than just a smack in the face punch, I am running the kicks into a 1176 style compressor and can blend it a little better using compression/limiting but then i don't get the compression sound that is best.
I like the boom part of the kick I just want the start of it to be lower and more punch/slap i'm sure you know what i mean. I'm not trying to get some super retard kick, just a nice one where it blends better, any tips woud be appreciated.
edit - The kick has no processing only Tempest and WA76.
edit 2 - Also maybe instead of working out what I'm doing wrong, maybe i should just learn whats right, pls leave your tips on how to make some nice Thuddy/punchy kicks on the Tempest!
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Update - I realise now that the compressor setting i was using was making the kicks that way derp. Problem solved!
https://soundcloud.com/robert-tree-hardy/51-tempest-rec-1
much better!
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Glad you figured it out. Have you looked at:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html
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Glad you figured it out. Have you looked at:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html
Yes a good few times, i've learnt a hell of a lot from that thread but no one seems to ever engage in it, I was having a brain freeze moment trying to make that kick yesterday, I thought i had tried different compression settings when it turns out i hadn't it was sending me loopy lol.
I would like the sound design thread moving down here so people see it more and don't think its a "no go area" because its stickied, i dont know why people dont chat more in their i've tried a few times to get a conversation started about sound design in the tempest but no one seems to want to pack that thread to the core!
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Glad you figured it out. Have you looked at:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html
Yes a good few times, i've learnt a hell of a lot from that thread but no one seems to ever engage in it, I was having a brain freeze moment trying to make that kick yesterday, I thought i had tried different compression settings when it turns out i hadn't it was sending me loopy lol.
I would like the sound design thread moving down here so people see it more and don't think its a "no go area" because its stickied, i dont know why people dont chat more in their i've tried a few times to get a conversation started about sound design in the tempest but no one seems to want to share their experiences and ideas :(
So, the biggest trick/challenge in my opinion with getting good kicks is that when you start using multiple oscillators/samples for low kick drum frequencies they phase with each other in a way that usually results in the kick becoming flabby/tubby and whatever other adjectives people like to throw around for less punchy kick drums :)
Same thing goes for clicky kick transients. If they're not exactly lined up quite right, it can make the transient seem muddy rather than punchier. Because of this, some techniques I use are:
- Thinking of your kick as 2 primary elements: the transient and the body. Try to design for each one and keep them relatively clean (unless you're going for a dirty kind of thing). So I might use a sample for my transient, and then use an Aux Envelope to fade in my analog oscillator for the body because having them start at the same time might sound kind of flabby... it also can sound really good, so you have to use your ears first and foremost!
- Use your ears and tune your elements together. Try to pitch your kick samples to be in tune with your analog oscillators, etc.
- Pick complimentary elements. If Osc 3 is doing a low deep 808 sound, try using Osc 4 for a clicky mid-high frequency sound. Think of your sound design from both a time domain perspective (transient/body) as well as frequency (low/mid/high). Example: You use a Osc 1 as a Triangle for a low boomy transient layered with a short clicky high frequency sample on Osc 3. You then quickly fade out the low boomy Osc 1 as Osc 4 fades in with low digital sine wave for a long body/sustain sound.
Also worth pointing out, the digital oscillator pre/post filter setting... if you make the samples post-filter (0/100) there's like a 3 dB increase in the volume of the sample. I typically like to keep my samples post-filter because it can make them so much louder and gives me more flexibility with balancing them against my analog oscillators. If you look at my first attached picture, on the left is a pre-filter sample and on the right is the post-filter version. Notice how much bigger than transient is in the post-filter.
Worth noting is that it also makes a big difference for the digital oscillators as well, as my second attached picture is using a digital Sine wave... on the left is the pre-filter and the right is post-filter and you can see the post-filter version is louder. For making big sub-bass sounds this is really useful for bringing in some big low end with the digital sines.
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Glad you figured it out. Have you looked at:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html
Yes a good few times, i've learnt a hell of a lot from that thread but no one seems to ever engage in it, I was having a brain freeze moment trying to make that kick yesterday, I thought i had tried different compression settings when it turns out i hadn't it was sending me loopy lol.
I would like the sound design thread moving down here so people see it more and don't think its a "no go area" because its stickied, i dont know why people dont chat more in their i've tried a few times to get a conversation started about sound design in the tempest but no one seems to want to share their experiences and ideas :(
So, the biggest trick/challenge in my opinion with getting good kicks is that when you start using multiple oscillators/samples for low kick drum frequencies they phase with each other in a way that usually results in the kick becoming flabby/tubby and whatever other adjectives people like to throw around for less punchy kick drums :)
Same thing goes for clicky kick transients. If they're not exactly lined up quite right, it can make the transient seem muddy rather than punchier. Because of this, some techniques I use are:
- Thinking of your kick as 2 primary elements: the transient and the body. Try to design for each one and keep them relatively clean (unless you're going for a dirty kind of thing). So I might use a sample for my transient, and then use an Aux Envelope to fade in my analog oscillator for the body because having them start at the same time might sound kind of flabby... it also can sound really good, so you have to use your ears first and foremost!
- Use your ears and tune your elements together. Try to pitch your kick samples to be in tune with your analog oscillators, etc.
- Pick complimentary elements. If Osc 3 is doing a low deep 808 sound, try using Osc 4 for a clicky mid-high frequency sound. Think of your sound design from both a time domain perspective (transient/body) as well as frequency (low/mid/high). Example: You use a Osc 1 as a Triangle for a low boomy transient layered with a short clicky high frequency sample on Osc 3. You then quickly fade out the low boomy Osc 1 as Osc 4 fades in with low digital sine wave for a long body/sustain sound.
Also worth pointing out, the digital oscillator pre/post filter setting... if you make the samples post-filter (0/100) there's like a 3 dB increase in the volume of the sample. I typically like to keep my samples post-filter because it can make them so much louder and gives me more flexibility with balancing them against my analog oscillators. If you look at my first attached picture, on the left is a pre-filter sample and on the right is the post-filter version. Notice how much bigger than transient is in the post-filter.
Worth noting is that it also makes a big difference for the digital oscillators as well, as my second attached picture is using a digital Sine wave... on the left is the pre-filter and the right is post-filter and you can see the post-filter version is louder. For making big sub-bass sounds this is really useful for bringing in some big low end with the digital sines.
Thankyou! I have kind of being trying to attempt this but haven't figured out the best way to approach the pre/post filters and choice of samples this small guide is awesome really thanks mate!!!
also, adamX, just curious are you THE adamX?
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Glad you figured it out. Have you looked at:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html
Yes a good few times, i've learnt a hell of a lot from that thread but no one seems to ever engage in it, I was having a brain freeze moment trying to make that kick yesterday, I thought i had tried different compression settings when it turns out i hadn't it was sending me loopy lol.
I would like the sound design thread moving down here so people see it more and don't think its a "no go area" because its stickied, i dont know why people dont chat more in their i've tried a few times to get a conversation started about sound design in the tempest but no one seems to want to share their experiences and ideas :(
So, the biggest trick/challenge in my opinion with getting good kicks is that when you start using multiple oscillators/samples for low kick drum frequencies they phase with each other in a way that usually results in the kick becoming flabby/tubby and whatever other adjectives people like to throw around for less punchy kick drums :)
Same thing goes for clicky kick transients. If they're not exactly lined up quite right, it can make the transient seem muddy rather than punchier. Because of this, some techniques I use are:
- Thinking of your kick as 2 primary elements: the transient and the body. Try to design for each one and keep them relatively clean (unless you're going for a dirty kind of thing). So I might use a sample for my transient, and then use an Aux Envelope to fade in my analog oscillator for the body because having them start at the same time might sound kind of flabby... it also can sound really good, so you have to use your ears first and foremost!
- Use your ears and tune your elements together. Try to pitch your kick samples to be in tune with your analog oscillators, etc.
- Pick complimentary elements. If Osc 3 is doing a low deep 808 sound, try using Osc 4 for a clicky mid-high frequency sound. Think of your sound design from both a time domain perspective (transient/body) as well as frequency (low/mid/high). Example: You use a Osc 1 as a Triangle for a low boomy transient layered with a short clicky high frequency sample on Osc 3. You then quickly fade out the low boomy Osc 1 as Osc 4 fades in with low digital sine wave for a long body/sustain sound.
Also worth pointing out, the digital oscillator pre/post filter setting... if you make the samples post-filter (0/100) there's like a 3 dB increase in the volume of the sample. I typically like to keep my samples post-filter because it can make them so much louder and gives me more flexibility with balancing them against my analog oscillators. If you look at my first attached picture, on the left is a pre-filter sample and on the right is the post-filter version. Notice how much bigger than transient is in the post-filter.
Worth noting is that it also makes a big difference for the digital oscillators as well, as my second attached picture is using a digital Sine wave... on the left is the pre-filter and the right is post-filter and you can see the post-filter version is louder. For making big sub-bass sounds this is really useful for bringing in some big low end with the digital sines.
Thankyou! I have kind of being trying to attempt this but haven't figured out the best way to approach the pre/post filters and choice of samples this small guide is awesome really thanks mate!!!
also, adamX, just curious are you THE adamX?
Nope! Just some other Adam. Had to google his name to know who that was actually :P
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Well, once my Tempest and my belongings arrive in Victoria(BC), I'll definately jump in on trying/giving some ideas. I agree about the lack of patch idea exchange. As a group we have been more focused on the dev side of the latest firmware.
I'll have to destroy AdamX's example with by club banging new BD that will redefine techno, life, and the universe. *grin* Or maybe not...
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club banging new BD that will redefine techno, life, and the universe. *grin*
I'll get my dancing pants on lol!!!
I'm going to try and use the "FLAT***" Sample again to make something that sounds a little more in the realistic but not realistic kick department!
I'm in love with a kickdrum from Rub'N'Tug producer Eric Dunbars kick on his todd terje remix. Those low slung slappy kicks are my dream, I really need to learn how to get closer to those kind of kicks, I'm guessing its a mixture of pitching down a sample and some compression/verb that cost more than my entire life it worth, haha, but who knows one day i might master the art!!!
https://soundcloud.com/toddterje/ols011b2
The kick and bass in that remix are another level.
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I can hear some distortion going on in this kick ^
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club banging new BD that will redefine techno, life, and the universe. *grin*
I'll get my dancing pants on lol!!!
I'm going to try and use the "FLAT***" Sample again to make something that sounds a little more in the realistic but not realistic kick department!
I'm in love with a kickdrum from Rub'N'Tug producer Eric Dunbars kick on his todd terje remix. Those low slung slappy kicks are my dream, I really need to learn how to get closer to those kind of kicks, I'm guessing its a mixture of pitching down a sample and some compression/verb that cost more than my entire life it worth, haha, but who knows one day i might master the art!!!
https://soundcloud.com/toddterje/ols011b2
The kick and bass in that remix are another level.
Specifically for that kick there, I think it's primarily a pitched down sample.
I was able to get something similar sounding by using the OSC 3 set to "23. Nice" and pitching it -3.00 semitones with Volume at 127. Then setting the Pre/Post filter to 30/70 I put my LPF in 4-Pole mode with a LPF Freq of 39 and a resonance of 70. By doing this the filter resonance isn't high enough to self-resonate, but it's used to emphasize the low end frequencies already existing in the OSC 3 kick sample.
There's definitely a lot of processing (and of course mastering) done to that remix track, so some EQ/Compression afterwards will probably help out a lot. Some saturation would be helpful too as Yorgos mentioned. I wouldn't use the on-board Tempest compressor for this kind of sound personally... the Tempest compressor kind of acts like a transient-enhancer on steroids from what I've seen so far which isn't exactly what you want here probably.
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^ Maybe he could experiment with Tempest's feedback for some saturation?
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^ Maybe he could experiment with Tempest's feedback for some saturation?
Totally! I've personally been shying away from the feedback knob a lot because it can easily result in that pitch ascending distorted chirp that I think every Tempest user is familiar with by now :) A little bit seem to go a long way with that control. I need to spend more time and try to figure out some best practices with it... I get more predictable results when it's used on a sustained synth sound rather than a kick/snare, which makes sense given what the control is doing.
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Some very good and interesting kicks can be found. Takes quite some effort tho,
Unfortunately many make some of the beat wide sound parameters un-useable, the horrible wooo wooo as you open the filter and the kick sound is gone........
Now dont say "but the samples" because, imo, just not up to scratch.
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I mute the kick in mute mode when I use those specific beat fx that make the kick go wooowooo ;). But mute mode is the mode I use the most when using beat wide fx so that helps I guess.
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Nah!I've nailed this one on my latest 808 kit...You can crank up beatFX to the extremes and the results are so natural and controllable!That's how things should behave in the first place..Though it wasn't easy..I had to spent countless hours in the Mod Matrix to find the sweet spots..
Unfortunately many make some of the beat wide sound parameters un-useable, the horrible wooo wooo as you open the filter and the kick sound is gone.......
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Nah!I've nailed this one on my latest 808 kit...You can crank up beatFX to the extremes and the results are so natural and controllable!That's how things should behave in the first place..Though it wasn't easy..I had to spent countless hours in the Mod Matrix to find the sweet spots..
Unfortunately many make some of the beat wide sound parameters un-useable, the horrible wooo wooo as you open the filter and the kick sound is gone.......
Neat. What did you do, offset the Beat FX with instrument's Slider Position in the Mod Matrix? So that for the kicks when the Beat Filter Frequency goes up the kick's individual filter frequency goes down to keep it low, etc.
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I know one thing for sure. Yorgos's kicks are my favorite.
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Basically you have to adjust your sounds at Max all around parameter levels and from Mod Matrix give that controllable factor..Just ask yourself what does BeatFX doing when you messing with ribbons or soft knobs or whatever..It's like cranking things to max values ;)
When i design sounds i paint in the Mod Matrix and not in their default menus 8)
I've burned my brain with this but in the end was worth it!
Neat. What did you do, offset the Beat FX with instrument's Slider Position in the Mod Matrix? So that for the kicks when the Beat Filter Frequency goes up the kick's individual filter frequency goes down to keep it low, etc.
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Thanks guys!
I have also found using a touch of feedback a setting of 15 for example can give a kick a reallly nice thickness!
I'm going to try the your suggested settings now Adam, I think the kick might possibly be from a Dmx or limb drum and pitched down so I'm going to try those samples too I'll let you know how I get on!
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Basically you have to adjust your sounds at Max all around parameter levels and from Mod Matrix give that controllable factor..Just ask yourself what does BeatFX doing when you messing with ribbons or soft knobs or whatever..It's like cranking things to max values ;)
When i design sounds i paint in the Mod Matrix and not in their default menus 8)
I've burned my brain with this but in the end was worth it!
Neat. What did you do, offset the Beat FX with instrument's Slider Position in the Mod Matrix? So that for the kicks when the Beat Filter Frequency goes up the kick's individual filter frequency goes down to keep it low, etc.
Ah really interesting. So for instance, you'll generate a kick using the self-resonating LPF by setting the Filter Freq all the way up to 164, and then use the Mod Matrix to push the frequency back down? I just tried doing that now and it works pretty nicely, avoids that "woo woo" effect with the Beat-Wide filter sweeping for sure. What are you using for the Mod Matrix source to do the offsets, Note Number?
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i wish Tempest had an analog sine so i didn't need to waste my filter on softening the triangle.
Also, i just can't quite get the snap with the pitch envelope that i can get in DrumSpillage, it's a bit irritating really. Should be able to select an analog sine, aim for around 50Hz, get a nice snappy pitch envelope. Done. but it's never that simple with the tempest. don't get me wrong, i can make some nice kicks, but if i compare that simple process of selecting a sine and affecting it with a pitch envelope - to many other synths, the Tempest is simply ok, not like - WOW that's solid. It's like the pitch envelopes are (or something is) a bit fuzzy.
I know i can be using the resonant filter technique, and i do sometimes, but the oscillator / pitch envelope technique isn't as straight forward as it should be, i feel... using the digital sine wave in my analog drum synth... hmmmm ...Need to filter the triangle, find the sweet spots, mess around with the filter envelope too!!... it's a bit of mission, so i often just go back to DrumSpillage. I'm getting a Novation Circuit this week, so I might try loading some samples from the Tempest and DrumSpillage into it and free up some voices on the Tempest for synth sounds.
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i wish Tempest had an analog sine so i didn't need to waste my filter on softening the triangle.
Just use the sine sample - a sine wave is a sine wave!! Unless you're trying fast pitch mod changes it sounds fine.
One thing on using feedback for kicks, yes it sounds good but make sure you're panning hard left and routing the kick out the voice outs otherwise it will completely fark with your stereo image.
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i wish Tempest had an analog sine so i didn't need to waste my filter on softening the triangle.
Just use the sine sample - a sine wave is a sine wave!! Unless you're trying fast pitch mod changes it sounds fine.
One thing on using feedback for kicks, yes it sounds good but make sure you're panning hard left and routing the kick out the voice outs otherwise it will completely fark with your stereo image.
feedback isn't distributed evenly over both channels? I know it only picks up from the left channel but, surely it effects both channels the same? or is there something im missing here?
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Combinations of Note Numbers & Aux Envelopes..Complex stuff
What are you using for the Mod Matrix source to do the offsets, Note Number?
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Feedback goes on the Left channel...
feedback isn't distributed evenly over both channels? I know it only picks up from the left channel but, surely it effects both channels the same? or is there something im missing here?
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Feedback goes on the Left channel...
feedback isn't distributed evenly over both channels? I know it only picks up from the left channel but, surely it effects both channels the same? or is there something im missing here?
Oh ok, i thought it took the audio from the left channel then fed it back to both channels, my mistake.
I usually record in mono so i can compress thats probably why i miss this detail.
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Feedback goes on the Left channel...
feedback isn't distributed evenly over both channels? I know it only picks up from the left channel but, surely it effects both channels the same? or is there something im missing here?
Oh ok, i thought it took the audio from the left channel then fed it back to both channels, my mistake.
I usually record in mono so i can compress thats probably why i miss this detail.
You're right actually. It takes the output of the left channel, and then routes the signal back into the LPF which is still mono. The feedback is effecting the sound pre-panning, so the effect of the feedback is in both channels as it were. The more you pan the sound to the right, the less signal is sent through the feedback loop though.
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i wish Tempest had an analog sine so i didn't need to waste my filter on softening the triangle.
Just use the sine sample - a sine wave is a sine wave!! Unless you're trying fast pitch mod changes it sounds fine.
well yes, there is the problem.
dropping the pitch of the oscillator, then modulating with a pitch envelope... it doesn't sound crash hot really.
not as tight as i'd prefer.
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
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i wish Tempest had an analog sine so i didn't need to waste my filter on softening the triangle.
Just use the sine sample - a sine wave is a sine wave!! Unless you're trying fast pitch mod changes it sounds fine.
well yes, there is the problem.
dropping the pitch of the oscillator, then modulating with a pitch envelope... it doesn't sound crash hot really.
not as tight as i'd prefer.
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
Yeah that's the biggest problem with the digital oscillators, you can't modulate the pitch as highly, so you can't really make a kick using the digital sines the same as a resonating filter sine. Not sure if that's a bug, or most likely just a limitation of the digital oscillators.
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Feedback goes on the Left channel...
feedback isn't distributed evenly over both channels? I know it only picks up from the left channel but, surely it effects both channels the same? or is there something im missing here?
Oh ok, i thought it took the audio from the left channel then fed it back to both channels, my mistake.
I usually record in mono so i can compress thats probably why i miss this detail.
You're right actually. It takes the output of the left channel, and then routes the signal back into the LPF which is still mono. The feedback is effecting the sound pre-panning, so the effect of the feedback is in both channels as it were. The more you pan the sound to the right, the less signal is sent through the feedback loop though.
Thanks for the clarification I thought thats how it worked, I was going to look in the manual to see where it fed back but you saved me the trouble, thanks!
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but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
I guess this is true in the analogue domain - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!
But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
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but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
I guess this is true in the analogue domain - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!
But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.
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Just a friendly reminder to keep things constructive and on-topic :)
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but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
I guess this is true in the analogue domain - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!
But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.
From what I've found, you need to bend the envelopes in the mod matrix to make them really snap for kick drums the right way. I've been A/Bing making kick drums on the Tempest with other hardware and software that I usually design kicks on, and I've found that to get the results I'm used to hearing I need to bend the Tempest's pitch/filter decay by an amount of +30.
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but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
I guess this is true in the analogue domain - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!
But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.
I love the envelopes. Go figure...
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but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
I guess this is true in the analogue domain - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!
But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.
From what I've found, you need to bend the envelopes in the mod matrix to make them really snap for kick drums the right way. I've been A/Bing making kick drums on the Tempest with other hardware and software that I usually design kicks on, and I've found that to get the results I'm used to hearing I need to bend the Tempest's pitch/filter decay by an amount of +30.
ok i'll try that... you mean source = Osc pitch and Destination = pitch envelope? by a value of 30??
cheers
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but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
I guess this is true in the analogue domain - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!
But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.
From what I've found, you need to bend the envelopes in the mod matrix to make them really snap for kick drums the right way. I've been A/Bing making kick drums on the Tempest with other hardware and software that I usually design kicks on, and I've found that to get the results I'm used to hearing I need to bend the Tempest's pitch/filter decay by an amount of +30.
ok i'll try that... you mean source = Osc pitch and Destination = pitch envelope? by a value of 30??
cheers
Depends how you're making your kick (with the Oscillator or Filter), but in the Mod Matrix do like:
Pitch Env assigned to Pitch Env Decay (Amount +30)
Filter Env assigned to Filter Env Decay (Amount +30)
Then you'll most likely have to tweak the Decay setting in your envelopes as this also shifts the length of the decay. If you're not feeling it at +30, try +40 and then +50, etc. The higher you increase that amount, the steeper the envelope gets.
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but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
I guess this is true in the analogue domain - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!
But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.
From what I've found, you need to bend the envelopes in the mod matrix to make them really snap for kick drums the right way. I've been A/Bing making kick drums on the Tempest with other hardware and software that I usually design kicks on, and I've found that to get the results I'm used to hearing I need to bend the Tempest's pitch/filter decay by an amount of +30.
ok i'll try that... you mean source = Osc pitch and Destination = pitch envelope? by a value of 30??
cheers
I'd also advice you to check out the tricks&tips topic. Bending the envelope sis one of the more basic tricks. I think it's even in the manual... env as source modulating its own decay.
Also using peak of the envelopes can make a lot of difference in getting booming, punchy kicks and what not.
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i couldn't see anything about this on the tips thread, but yes, the mod matrix is DEFINITELY essential is making what i would consider a tight slamming kick drum. or at least, to get the most out of the envelopes.
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He means my tips about consistency ;)
i couldn't see anything about this on the tips thread, but yes, the mod matrix is DEFINITELY essential is making what i would consider a tight slamming kick drum. or at least, to get the most out of the envelopes.
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Yes but not only those ;)
The recipes from noisy little bugger are also very important and helpful for starters :)
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can't see any "noisy little bugger" tips... or recipes
as for the inconsistency tips, been using them since i got the Tempest.
It's just the first synth where i've had to spend ages in a mod matrix to get a decent envelope shape.
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He was talking about the tutorials on the Sound Design & Patch Exchange post:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html
The Stim's Tempest Recipes section. Having an Envelope Shape knob would've been much easier than going into the Mod Matrix for sure, but it's not like that will ever happen so I'm cool with how it is. Small price to pay for the flexibility the Tempest offers in my opinion, but I can see how that can make it less immediate.
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He means this: https://stimresp.wordpress.com/tempest-recipes/
And indeed Tempest needs more effort than any other synth to get you there...
can't see any "noisy little bugger" tips... or recipes
as for the inconsistency tips, been using them since i got the Tempest.
It's just the first synth where i've had to spend ages in a mod matrix to get a decent envelope shape.
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thanks heaps guys, much appreciated!
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but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
I guess this is true in the analogue domain - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!
But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.
From what I've found, you need to bend the envelopes in the mod matrix to make them really snap for kick drums the right way. I've been A/Bing making kick drums on the Tempest with other hardware and software that I usually design kicks on, and I've found that to get the results I'm used to hearing I need to bend the Tempest's pitch/filter decay by an amount of +30.
ok i'll try that... you mean source = Osc pitch and Destination = pitch envelope? by a value of 30??
cheers
I'd also advice you to check out the tricks&tips topic. Bending the envelope sis one of the more basic tricks. I think it's even in the manual... env as source modulating its own decay.
Also using peak of the envelopes can make a lot of difference in getting booming, punchy kicks and what not.
i ran into that wall sometime ago, no peak as a mod dest, that imo would have opened a huge can of sounds,..............baffling omission to say the least. (we all gotta palay nice now)
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Standard answer: why focus on what could have been, in stead of what is?
Makes no sense to me. The T can already create endless amounts of sounds with the routing possibilities available.
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that's true, but i think everyone is entitled to at least one major "baffling omission" outburst.
...plus a few small ones
we all know it's love it or leave it, but sometimes the bafflage is enough to make one burst outward.
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Alright, that is True :)
For me it's the omission of more dotted lfo sync options. ;)
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Alright, that is True :)
For me it's the omission of more dotted lfo sync options. ;)
pre/post filter not being a mod dest ;)
And the fact you can't 'lock' the mod matrix screen so you can tweak mod amounts alongside envelope parameters (for example) without the screen switching and having to click 'mod paths' to go back to it again. Bit of a fail that - and the most annoying thing about the Tempest's UI IMO.
Sorry, derailing thread...
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I never thought about a mod screen lock. That would be awesome...I know...dev stopped on new features. A+ for cool feature though;)
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Don't forget you can assign the sliders to do this!
I use the sliders so one controls decay and one a mod matrix amount controlling amp - ampdec so the envelopes tighten and things like this as I mess with the decay it works on snares really well with that noise source getting clamped down harder as I open up the decay. I haven't tried it on a kick yet but I'm sure it will work!
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I use the sliders so one controls decay and one a mod matrix amount controlling amp - ampdec so the envelopes tighten and things like this as I mess with the decay it works on snares really well with that noise source getting clamped down harder as I open up the decay. I haven't tried it on a kick yet but I'm sure it will work!
Nice!
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I never thought about a mod screen lock. That would be awesome...I know...dev stopped on new features. A+ for cool feature though;)
;) We can dream...