The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet => Prophet '08 => Topic started by: Sacred Synthesis on November 23, 2015, 09:46:35 PM
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I try to stretch my synthesizers in order to get the most out of them. Since I've long been searching for a professional analog monophonic synthesizer and still haven't found the right one, I’ve experimented quite a bit with the Prophet ’08's monophonic side. For one, the P’08 offers the ideal keyboard size - a full five octaves. There's no need to hit an octave button when you run out of keys, as you constantly need to do to transpose a melody beyond the range of the typical three or three-and-a-half octave keyboard. You'll simply never run out of room on the P’08 keyboard, so that problem is solved once and for all. In addition, the "Split Mode" essentially allows you to have two independent mono synths ready to play, without having to switch between keyboards or hit program buttons to change sounds. This is a tremendous advantage over the usual one-sound-per-instrument arrangement.
The biggest problem in using the Prophet ’08 as a monophonic synthesizer is due to an actual flaw in the instrument: in the unison mode, it makes a nasty "click" sound in between notes when played in a legato style. This is especially true when using pulse width modulation. Recent operating system updates have improved this problem, but it still requires a bit of finessing in order to entirely hide it.
This problem annoyed me for a while, so that I had given up on the Prophet 08's monophonic abilities. But I've finally figured out a way around it. Nothing brilliant here, I realize, but I thought I'd mention it for others who may not have entirely resolved the problem or who are using an older OS.
First, when using "Unison Mode," select only the "1 Voice" setting; avoid the "All Voices" settings if you can. Second, when using pulse width modulation, leave the "Key Sync" button off, so that the pulse width isn't retriggered every time you strike a note. These two techniques alone eliminate much of the clicking problem. If you want to improve the sound even more, then add an amount of glide, extend the attack time, and shorten the release time. These last two settings will avoid notes from running into each other.
The final touch that will put a once-and-for-all stop to the clicking sound is only possible when the music allows for it: a detached playing technique. Certain patches require this anyway, such as when you want to articulate notes somewhat like a violinist. A slower attack and a complete cessation of sound before the next note strike will entirely resolve the problem. A generous amount of reverb will smoothen out the musical line and keep the melody from sounding overly detached.
I've found the monophonic sound produced by this setting to be perfectly satisfactory, allowing the Prophet ’08 to double as an excellent monophonic synthesizer.
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Great post!
I've tried to use my P08 as a monophonic synthesizer, but having a few of those here makes it redundant. In the end, I've learned to treat the P08 as polyphonic synth only - yes, part of it is because the clicking noises - I also hate unison sounds (maybe except a few basses here and there). The other poorly implemented feature for monosounds inside the 08 is oscillator sync - it lacks the brutality and detail found in some of the other synthesizers I have and used.
In comparison with other gear I have, I would say that the P08 is a really mid-class mono - all of my dedicated monos sound better than it. That is not the same as saying that the Prophet 08 isn't capable of convincing monophonic sounds. A really good example of this is the Tom Sawyer preset - that is a great sounding monophonic duet coming from the 08.
Some of your tips I've discovered on my own, others I'll have to try. Split mode for monophonic is actually pretty good indeed, and so is the sequencer - making rythmic or melodic sequences inside the P08 is a very good way to have some fun while using a bunch of other stuff together and just playing along.
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Personaly I don't see why a monosynth would need more than three octaves to be honest... Leads and basses are the main territory of monosynths, and it´s rare that you use more than three octaves for leads and basses... of course it's nice to have for a split setup, but if you split a 5 octave keyboard, then you end up with less than 3 octaves per sound anyway, so what's the point?
Of course this is my personal opinion, and I wil not say that just because I don't need more keys on a monosynth, that everyone else also can live with three octaves, I just have a hard time seeing myself using that many keys with monophonic sounds, unless I wanted to use the same keyboard as a master-keyboard for other synths... particularely polysynths.... in that case, 5 octaves is an absolute minimum for me.
Though... I'd never use the P08 as a monosynth for bass... it does not have the raw character like for example, a MOOG... But then again... it depends on what you want with a monosynth... I'd want one for bass and leads, maybe the occational SFX or ARP sequenced sound.
I still have not found my monosynth yet though... but I'm pretty certain it'll be either a MOOG Sub37, or even a Mother32, though the later does not have a keyboard... but then again... my studio workflow is significantly different to AO's so it's probably not even worth comparing anyway :)
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I frequently need a five-octave keyboard for melody purposes, so obviously it comes down to the type of music you make. The split keyboard feature is excellent for those melodies or bass lines that have a more limited range, so I'm not saying that a five-octave keyboard is always necessary. But it's ideal to have it there when you need it.
As for the Mother 32, beware of one thing: I've noticed repeatedly in videos that its keyboard tracking is poor. I don't know if users have set it this way purposely or carelessly, but within one octave the tuning is noticeably off. Octave leaps sound terribly out of tune.
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I'll keep an eye out for problems regarding the Mother32... I was not aware of any tracking problems, but I'm sure I'll be able to figure it out by searching the net... others must have written something about it.... besides, I'm most likely getting a Sub37, because it has preset storage... my main concern about the Sub37 is that it's a keyboard... I really don't need more keyboards to take up space in my allready cramped studio, which will only get even more cramped when I move to a smaller appartment in the future... but I have this fealing MOOG will never make this in rack format, so I'll just have to think it over.... maybe they will make another rack/tabletop synth in the future that will suit me better... if I have not bought the 37 before that of course...
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As long as the tuning issue is linear it shouldn't be a problem, there will bet a pot somewhere to adjust it.
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A really good example of this is the Tom Sawyer preset - that is a great sounding monophonic duet coming from the 08.
This (the MiniMoog side) is definitely my favorite monophonic preset. I was editing it last night and was surprised to notice that it only makes use of one of the oscillators; it's mixed so that we only hear one. I mixed the other one in and was again surprised that it didn't improve the thickness of the sound, like it does when you add a second or third oscillator to a similar sound on a MiniMoog. I'll have to experiment with that more.
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I had a breakthrough with the popping issue this morning. For a week or two, I've been working on a lead sound for "Come Sail Away" and have been really annoyed by the popping when I stacked my sound; I was delighted with the patch when stacked until I got up to the top several notes. I was working with Sacred Synthesis's suggestions and found his suggestion to use a 1 voice setting to be the ticket. (The other suggestions didn't help for this particular patch.) But of course, 1 voice is far less satisfying for a monophonic lead sound. So I experimented with duplicating the sound onto the B layer, which thickened the sound but also elicited the pop. I kept experimenting with the B layer and eventually found that altering the speed of the Glide did the trick. I now have the glide of Layer B set 5 higher than layer A, and this small change removed the annoying pop.
In order to thicken up the patch (with two voices it's still not as thick as stacked mode), I turned on Sync on both layers and reversed the detuning of the Oscillators: Patch A has Oscillator 1 at 3 and Oscillator 2 at -3, and Patch B has Oscillator 1 at -3 and Oscillator 2 at 3. I'm now very happy with the thickness and have no pops.
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I can't confirm this, but others have said that the last P'08 OS update made meaningful improvements in the "clicking" problem. Does anybody here know firsthand?
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I can't confirm this, but others have said that the last P'08 OS update made meaningful improvements in the "clicking" problem. Does anybody here know firsthand?
I can try for you tonight. I'll check the operating system (the latest is v2.3/v1.5) and try to play legato in unison. Is there any particular patch or type of patch that shows the bad behavior well?
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The worst clicking always came from a monophonic PWM patch.
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The worst clicking always came from a monophonic PWM patch.
I programmed a simple PWM patch with LFOs modulating the PW of each osc separately. When I turned on unison and played keys legato (letting go of a key after pressing the next one) I heard NO clicks through headphones. I have v2.3/v1.5. If I accidentally let go of the key before pressing the next one I got the attack phase of the envelopes.
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I think being fickle makes and keeps you miserable.
Last night I was working on some monophonic patches on the Poly Evolver and Prophet '08 keyboards, thinking at the same time how I wish the Korg ARP Odyssey had been full-sized and pondering my lack of other mono classics as well. Meanwhile, I'm sure the patch I was refining on the P'08 was every bit as good as I would ever want or need. Yes, the Prophet '08 is a superb monophonic synthesizer, if only you apply yourself to it. Good melodic lines and harmonic support, the right effects, a little EQ, and very careful programming, and you've got a superb sounding solo patch. But you've got to exert yourself, be a bit inconvenienced, and take advantage of everything the instrument has to offer. For example, using both pairs of stereo outputs, at the cost of a few mixer channels and some programming complications, produces a wonderfully wide ambient effect that leaves an ARP Odyssey miles behind. Even using the sustain pedal jack, for example, so as to hold notes over from one musical section to another and tastefully bridge the two, serves the composer/performer superbly well.
The more I look around at other instruments, the more I appreciate the ones I already have.
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I love the '08 for monophonic sounds... unless I get the dreaded popping/clicking noise. Even as I have found ways of reducing it, sometimes I just can't get rid of it completely. That's really my only issue, and usually I can get it to a tolerable level. I'm delighted with the '08.
Having said that, I'm going to try for a Crowminius too. It seems like too good of a deal not to try it:
http://www.cs80.com/crowminius/
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Next time the clicking gets to you, just pretend you've got a beautiful vintage mint condition mono synth. if I remember correctly, the ARP Axxe and Odyssey, as well as the CAT SRM, were quite "clicky" as well.
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Moinmoin,
although this probably won't really help, I second the opinion of Sacred Synthesis: "Character" is nothing else but another word for "imperfection". Remember the ancient greek myth of Psyche.
Playing bass for 35+ years I am very pedantic regarding the attack phase of sounds in general (as a bass player: where to pluck, use pick or finger or thumb in what peculiar way, ...). Your attack phase will heavily change microtiming to "ahead" or "laid back" even if You play exactly on the beat. That's why the most punk players use a pick BTW: It just feels faster.
All stringed instruments have a strong non-harmonic attack, as at the very moment they are plucked, bowed, or hammered, the string length doesn't determine the base frequency: The very position of plucking/bowing/hammering forces and defines node/antinode position. This will change as soon as the string is free, but definitely controls the attack phase and is the main reason for the mostly boring "guitar" or "piano" sounds of classical synths.
Fighting Your instrument's character (remember: imperfection) is never rewarding. Even though I must somewhat qualify this statement as a (somtimes double) bass player, it remains generally true.
Use the clicking to Your advantage or - if it really comes in Your way in making fine art and is not to cure - use another tool for that special purpose.
Martin
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I would agree with Moinmoin, and would suggest the expression "unintended characteristics," rather than "imperfections." Of course, all this within reason. You don't want too much of these unintended characteristics, but a moderate amount is fine. Countless instruments have them; for example, the pipe organ, harpsichord, oboe, and classical guitar each have sounds that the performer doesn't intend, and yet, these add to the charm and distinctiveness of the instrument. So, a little "click" at the attack phase of the envelope of the Prophet '08 is not a problem, in my opinion, as long as it's subtle enough. I would relegate it to one of the many analog qualities that are often taken up as desired features years later, such as the imperfect oscillator-keyboard tracking on a Minimoog. As in "Slop."
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I guess that is the best perspective to take... given that I love the '08 in so many other ways. One of my favorite instruments is my Hammond C3, and it certainly has leakage noise and key click.
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Now there's a relevant topic - the Hammond Organ. Practically 50% of Hammond clone/imitation is directed towards perfecting such unintended characteristics. Hammond perfectionists spare no effort in their quest for the most realistic reproduction of what are, in truth, the technological shortcomings of the 1940's and 50's. The new Hammond XK-5 is only the latest example.
The same is certainly true for synthesizer. Just consider Marc Doty's first video on the Pro 2. I don't personally agree that these imperfections make the instrument more appealing or that they are the essence of the analog sound, but that's another debate.
https://youtu.be/S5qi6bi2Dtg?t=3m13s
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If you think the Prophet '08 makes too much unwanted noise, then listen to this virginal recording.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF3Qdk0XYx8
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Yikes. I can't say that I would want to listen to that for very long.
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I presume it's due to a poorly placed pick up. Still, it's only an extreme example of the mechanical noise that is part and parcel of acoustic instruments. So, an occasional pop or click from a synthesizer should be tolerable if it can't be removed. It also reminds me that synthesists are quite demanding in the audio quality field. We've come to expect a degree of quality and frequency range that is extreme. Whereas once the expression "CD quality" meant decent respectable enjoyable quality, now it's almost an insult, a sort of minimal standard for bedroom studio musicians. Personally, I'm fine with CD quality, and I actually find it refreshing to hear good music recorded at this level. Classical keyboard music is an example. It seldom approaches the synthesist's standard of audio excellence. I'm sure I don't have a single recording that passes such a standard. Nor will I likely ever produce one.
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This is copied from "Improvisation LXXIII" on my YouTube channel:
"The flute sound seems simple enough, but it is deceptively elaborate. It consists of a narrow pulse and a square. The pulse width of each wave form is very slightly and slowly modulated. In addition, an LFO slowly modulates between one oscillator and the other. This means there is a subtle chorus effect from the PWM, a changing of timbre as the narrow pulse changes to a square and then back again, a faint beating of oscillators when the two briefly meet in the middle, plus a delayed vibrato which is either maintained by a smooth connected playing technique or retriggered (and thus, delayed) by a broken disconnected playing technique. Its filter, too, is controlled by the modulation wheel. To deepen the richness of the patch's general tone, the identical sound of Layer A is copied to Layer B and the two are panned at the mixer. So much trouble for a simple little flute sound, but it's always worth it. Of course, all these effects are detectible only when a long note is heard, and that's fine, because they're meant to be musical nuances that don't overly attract attention to themselves.
If it isn't obvious, I think the Prophet '08 makes a superb monophonic synthesizer."
I worked very hard at this patch and it shows the time and effort that can go into designing a monophonic sound with the Prophet '08. Every effect is subtle but adds to the character of what - I hope - is a natural sounding result full of acoustic-like nuances.
I haven't seen one aspect of modulation discussed here before and used in this sound, and that is, modulating the oscillator levels using "Oscillator Mix." By slowly rocking back and forth between oscillators, you can create what seems like pulse width modulation, but without the usual chorus effect, except when they briefly pass each other in the middle and beat. I prefer it best when done subtly, but it's quite an effect when pushed to the extremes, such as when one pulse width is set to "48" (square) and the other is set to about "12" (very narrow pulse). And of course, where you set the "Oscillator Mix" parameter determines which oscillator/waveform gets emphasized more than the other.
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I already had a monophonic synth (Moog Little Phatty) so when I got my Prophet I was intending to use it primarily as a poly synth. I figured I'd use the Moogs for leads and Prophet for pads.
I have been pleasantly surprised by a few of the monophonic presets on the Prophet, the first couple coming to mind are the Tom Sawyer and Lucky Guy presets. I use them without adjusting anything nor being tempted to reach for the Moog. They don't sound much alike, and I mean this in a good way. At this point I'm picking the synth based only on what kind of timbre I'm wanting, as they both can sound very different.
This was not the case with previous DCO based synths I owned. The Unison mode on the Juno 106 seemed kind of harsh whereas I don't have this issue with the Prophet.
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This was not the case with previous DCO based synths I owned. The Unison mode on the Juno 106 seemed kind of harsh whereas I don't have this issue with the Prophet.
Agreed - the unison mode on the (stock) Juno-106 (6x single DCO + subosc) is possibly the ugliest-sounding mono synth sound on the planet; the KiwiTechnics upgrade adds unison detune, bringing it much closer to Jupiter-4 (4x single VCO + subosc) territory.
I've never had a problem with the sound of any of the DSI DCO-based analogue synths in unison mode; the Tetra + Mopho SE combination (5x dual DCO + dual suboscs) was pretty large.
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Pardon the seasonal self-promotion, but the melody in this piece was played on the Prophet '08. In my opinion, the sawtooth and square leads sounds very fine and musical. This is why I've come to appreciate the P'08 as my preferred monophonic instrument. The tone and control are excellent. Sure, I'd love to have an ARP Odyssey, but then again, it just doesn't offer the same amount of control. Essential to the two solo patches is the delayed vibrato, thanks to the third envelope. The Odyssey can't provide this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5psbnQUX2Q
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Oh Yes- I love your sawtooth lead sound on this one! I'd love to see a patch chart for it. (Of course, playing one of the best melodies of all time on it doesn't hurt either.) How are you getting that beautiful sizzle? Is it a saw or are you using PWM?
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It's pure sawtooth: two oscillators closely tuned, a nice slow attack, a short release, and a delayed vibrato, much like a violin.
And that's one of my favorite melodies, too. I played a more modal version of it by adding a major sixth to the minor melody, rather than the usual minor sixth. It gives a mysterious "lift" to the tune.
Jason, I could honestly live with the Prophet '08's sound quality for the rest of my life. I don't feel any need to improve on it. If I could have it my way, the P'08 would remain in production for years to come, and I'd busy myself with making music with it, rather than constantly searching high and low for the latest new synthesizer.