The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet => Prophet 12 => Topic started by: cr73645 on November 09, 2015, 02:39:22 AM
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I know, I know... I could look for this on the other forum, and there's also a lot of info about the Prophet 12 all over the internet, but I wanted to ask this here.
I'm probably going to get myself a Prophet 12. Fact. I've been lusting for one since release, and I think it's about time to stop trying to resist.
Something I'd really like is to get some kind of feedback from users that are more constantly in contact with the Prophet 12. What do you think about it after all this time? Positive and negative sides? Build quality?
I'm sorry for creating this kind of topic, but I really don't have enough time to search for all this information. Thank you. :D
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I asume you are thinking about the keys version? ... I only have the module version, but build quality is really good in my opinion, and very well laid out compared to how few knobs it has... no problem editing at all... fast and intuitive.
Enginewise, it's a killer... you won't find anything else with analog VCF/VCA that has this complexity... fact.
Soundwise, itīs a bit more sterile than say, a Prophet 08... thatīs down to the digital oscillators mainly, but those give you the flexibility, so I'd say it compensates...
Personaly I will be using it mostly for pads and atmospheres, as this is where it really shines... perfect for doing Ambient music for sure... if you are into deep booming analog bass, go MOOG or something... I don't feel any DSI synth will go there, but that's ofcourse a personal oppinion.
That's my short review :)
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I asume you are thinking about the keys version? ... I only have the module version, but build quality is really good in my opinion, and very well laid out compared to how few knobs it has... no problem editing at all... fast and intuitive.
Enginewise, it's a killer... you won't find anything else with analog VCF/VCA that has this complexity... fact.
Soundwise, itīs a bit more sterile than say, a Prophet 08... thatīs down to the digital oscillators mainly, but those give you the flexibility, so I'd say it compensates...
Personaly I will be using it mostly for pads and atmospheres, as this is where it really shines... perfect for doing Ambient music for sure... if you are into deep booming analog bass, go MOOG or something... I don't feel any DSI synth will go there, but that's ofcourse a personal oppinion.
That's my short review :)
Yes, I was talking about the keyboard version, but it's good to hear that build quality is nice on the module. In the end, I think they share same knobs and encoders, which I assume are good. I was also thinking about the module, but I can't resist to think that I would loose a lot in terms of performance, with not much money payed for all controls and keys.
I'm really excited about the engine. I think that its complexity is the most interesting thing about it. Even if the oscillators aren't as "warm" as the ones on the 08, I think that the ability to have 4 oscillators plus sub-oscillator is really good.
Filter-wise, I didn't notice any big difference between the 08 and 12on the LPF... am I crazy?
How about the tunable feedback? Is it musically usable? I'm beginning to enjoy ambient music too, and I think that the 12 is a very good synthesizer in that area.
In some ways, the 12 reminds me a bit of the V-Synth, not sound, but where it really excels. If the GT had a wavetable engine, it would be a killer synth - you'll see that the samples cannot be used exactly like wavetables.
Not that it is a big deal, since I have a lot of other analog stuff, but can the 12 make some good bass sounds, like a Virus TI? The GT certainly can't...
Thank you Razmo for your mini review. Ill be following your ranting topic, so please, share some 12 magic... ;)
I hope to hear some more opinions here! :)
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I asume you are thinking about the keys version? ... I only have the module version, but build quality is really good in my opinion, and very well laid out compared to how few knobs it has... no problem editing at all... fast and intuitive.
Enginewise, it's a killer... you won't find anything else with analog VCF/VCA that has this complexity... fact.
Soundwise, itīs a bit more sterile than say, a Prophet 08... thatīs down to the digital oscillators mainly, but those give you the flexibility, so I'd say it compensates...
Personaly I will be using it mostly for pads and atmospheres, as this is where it really shines... perfect for doing Ambient music for sure... if you are into deep booming analog bass, go MOOG or something... I don't feel any DSI synth will go there, but that's ofcourse a personal oppinion.
That's my short review :)
Yes, I was talking about the keyboard version, but it's good to hear that build quality is nice on the module. In the end, I think they share same knobs and encoders, which I assume are good. I was also thinking about the module, but I can't resist to think that I would loose a lot in terms of performance, with not much money payed for all controls and keys.
I'm really excited about the engine. I think that its complexity is the most interesting thing about it. Even if the oscillators aren't as "warm" as the ones on the 08, I think that the ability to have 4 oscillators plus sub-oscillator is really good.
Filter-wise, I didn't notice any big difference between the 08 and 12on the LPF... am I crazy?
How about the tunable feedback? Is it musically usable? I'm beginning to enjoy ambient music too, and I think that the 12 is a very good synthesizer in that area.
In some ways, the 12 reminds me a bit of the V-Synth, not sound, but where it really excels. If the GT had a wavetable engine, it would be a killer synth - you'll see that the samples cannot be used exactly like wavetables.
Not that it is a big deal, since I have a lot of other analog stuff, but can the 12 make some good bass sounds, like a Virus TI? The GT certainly can't...
Thank you Razmo for your mini review. Ill be following your ranting topic, so please, share some 12 magic... ;)
I hope to hear some more opinions here! :)
Knobs and buttons are sturdy and good... no wobblyness at all... feels like they have been bolted to the top metal plate 8)... buttons firm and "clicky" without double triggering or anything. Much better than previous buttons on P08 and Evolvers.
Filters... teh reason you don't hear much difference is probably because they are the same Curtis filters ... used in both devices ;) ... that's the "big difference" to newer DSI gear, which has descrete VCF/VCA that sound more characterful.
Tuned feedback... I've not messed with that much yet, so cannot say...
The only thing V-Synth and P12 got in common, is that ther are both unique, no matter how contradictory that statement may sound ;D ... I know V-Synth does not do Wavetable... a shame, and I'd have liked a way to set a random sample start position every time a sample is played, since that would give more of an analog character (free running oscillator emulation), but wavetable can be party simulated, simply by sampling a wavetable scan and then use playback with alternating loop playback.
Bass... I would not use it for bass... though it can pull some convising ones forth... I guess I'm just more used to MOOG and Waldorf for that task... I think it's simply the filter being a bit boring in that regard... I do think though, that some of the V-Synth basses are quite good for a digital synth... it does not lack bottom end for sure, but again ... probably down to personal taste.
As I wrote... the P12 to me is very well suited for making really good Ambient sounds... it's basicaly because of the mod.matrix being able to modulate practically anything at audio rates... the potential here is HUGE compared to any other synth on the market... it's almost modular in nature to a certain extend.
You have to work a little harder to get the sound you want though... it's not like a P08 where you just dial in a sound, and it sounds good... you need to find the soft spots and keep track of especialy the level settings all the way through the signal chain because otherwise, you can easily distort somewher in the chain, and get that infamous "P12 digital sheen" character that many do not like.
I won't part with mine that is certain... lots of untapped power to be found in that machine :)
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Knobs and buttons are sturdy and good... no wobblyness at all... feels like they have been bolted to the top metal plate 8)... buttons firm and "clicky" without double triggering or anything. Much better than previous buttons on P08 and Evolvers.
Filters... teh reason you don't hear much difference is probably because they are the same Curtis filters ... used in both devices ;) ... that's the "big difference" to newer DSI gear, which has descrete VCF/VCA that sound more characterful.
Tuned feedback... I've not messed with that much yet, so cannot say...
The only thing V-Synth and P12 got in common, is that ther are both unique, no matter how contradictory that statement may sound ;D ... I know V-Synth does not do Wavetable... a shame, and I'd have liked a way to set a random sample start position every time a sample is played, since that would give more of an analog character (free running oscillator emulation), but wavetable can be party simulated, simply by sampling a wavetable scan and then use playback with alternating loop playback.
Bass... I would not use it for bass... though it can pull some convising ones forth... I guess I'm just more used to MOOG and Waldorf for that task... I think it's simply the filter being a bit boring in that regard... I do think though, that some of the V-Synth basses are quite good for a digital synth... it does not lack bottom end for sure, but again ... probably down to personal taste.
As I wrote... the P12 to me is very well suited for making really good Ambient sounds... it's basicaly because of the mod.matrix being able to modulate practically anything at audio rates... the potential here is HUGE compared to any other synth on the market... it's almost modular in nature to a certain extend.
You have to work a little harder to get the sound you want though... it's not like a P08 where you just dial in a sound, and it sounds good... you need to find the soft spots and keep track of especialy the level settings all the way through the signal chain because otherwise, you can easily distort somewher in the chain, and get that infamous "P12 digital sheen" character that many do not like.
I won't part with mine that is certain... lots of untapped power to be found in that machine :)
Thank you for your answer. It has some of the information I needed to know, mainly when it comes to build quality. It's nice to hear (read) that the buttons are better on the 12.
As for sound palette, I think I'm going to enjoy it a lot, at least from what I can hear from videos and audio demonstrations. As for it being comparable to the GT, it's not that they sound close - which they don't - it's more of the uniqueness that both share, as you've said, and also their best fit in music, which are long and evolving sounds, and also some more exquisite ones.
The filter, at least from promotional videos, seem to be an updated version of the one inside the 08, which is why I said that I can't hear any difference. The same architecture doesn't mean that the sound isn't the same. My Little Phatty for example, sounds different than the Sub Phatty, although both share a lot of components. With this updated 08 filter, inside the 12, I can't hear any real difference - maybe it's something in the subtleties.
As for finally getting it... I'm going to wait a little bit more. US dollar is extremely high right now, and in my country, it makes a U$1000 difference in the current price in comparison. I'll wait a bit. :)
Thank you once again Razmo!
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@cr73645: The lowpass filter in the P12 is identical to the P8. Certainly other parts of the architecture affect the overall sound of each instrument, but that component is unchanged between the two.
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@cr73645: The lowpass filter in the P12 is identical to the P8.
To the best of my knowledge the "new" Curtis filter on Tempest and Prophet 12 is an octave brighter than in the older Curtis chip instruments such as Prophet 08. At least that is what I remember Pym was saying several times on the old forum.
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I'd forgotten about that difference! Ha. You are correct, the range is extended on the Tempest and Prophet 12 an octave beyond the Prophet '08. That's not accomplished with a change to the core filter design, though. It does make the filter behave a little differently, but it's still the same filter.
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Hehe, same chick^H^Hp, different wire pulling. 8)
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I'd forgotten about that difference! Ha. You are correct, the range is extended on the Tempest and Prophet 12 an octave beyond the Prophet '08. That's not accomplished with a change to the core filter design, though. It does make the filter behave a little differently, but it's still the same filter.
How is this done then?... is it purely via software, making the range broader, or is it some of the components associated with the CEM chip externaly? ... I asume by what you're saying, that the chip itself is the exact same? :)
Have DSI ever thought about doing new chips by the way? ... recently, the P6 has been developed with "voiceboards", which seems to be halfway there... any thoughts on making those as a chip instead, making your design even more compact and affordable maybe?
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I have had my P12 keyboard for one year and a half now. I was also buying the "it is cold" label... But the more I use it the less I think of it so. It sounds fantastic! It is really really fat and wide and wild. I have made some OB- like brass, and amazing strings. Piercing FM basses and PWM greatness.
In fact I went and checked out the P6 really expecting it to blow the P12 in "analogness" and "fatness"... and although it really sounds good, the P12 is brutal!
I have a good friend that is in one of the best synthpop bands in Europe, he also works in a synth shop. He tested the P6 and still went for the P2 because of the raw fatness. He owns an amazing collection of classic analogs, and he swears for the P2/P12 engine. I agree.
You won't regret it, really.
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I have had my P12 keyboard for one year and a half now. I was also buying the "it is cold" label... But the more I use it the less I think of it so. It sounds fantastic! It is really really fat and wide and wild. I have made some OB- like brass, and amazing strings. Piercing FM basses and PWM greatness.
In fact I went and checked out the P6 really expecting it to blow the P12 in "analogness" and "fatness"... and although it really sounds good, the P12 is brutal!
I have a good friend that is in one of the best synthpop bands in Europe, he also works in a synth shop. He tested the P6 and still went for the P2 because of the raw fatness. He owns an amazing collection of classic analogs, and he swears for the P2/P12 engine. I agree.
You won't regret it, really.
P2!? ... you know anything we do not? :D
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Ahh... P2 = Pro2 ... I don't know why I did not figure that out ;D
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I have had my P12 keyboard for one year and a half now. I was also buying the "it is cold" label... But the more I use it the less I think of it so. It sounds fantastic! It is really really fat and wide and wild. I have made some OB- like brass, and amazing strings. Piercing FM basses and PWM greatness.
In fact I went and checked out the P6 really expecting it to blow the P12 in "analogness" and "fatness"... and although it really sounds good, the P12 is brutal!
I have a good friend that is in one of the best synthpop bands in Europe, he also works in a synth shop. He tested the P6 and still went for the P2 because of the raw fatness. He owns an amazing collection of classic analogs, and he swears for the P2/P12 engine. I agree.
You won't regret it, really.
I really like what you're saying here. It's the truth that online demonstrations can give a very misleading impression of an instrument. And regarding the Prophet 12, it's often the case that owners hover around the same sorts of sterile metallic tones, giving the rest of us the impression that the instrument can't do anything to the contrary. That's a serious problem and probably a mischaracterization.
You should post some of your sounds. I'd love to hear them and so would many others.
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Have DSI ever thought about doing new chips by the way? ... recently, the P6 has been developed with "voiceboards", which seems to be halfway there... any thoughts on making those as a chip instead, making your design even more compact and affordable maybe?
My clear impression is that the future belongs to discrete electronics synthesizers which interestingly is where it all started back in the day. Where chips can be useful are things like opamps and digital control. Actually I think the music industry should avoid making analog chips and instead work together to make digital hardware platforms that enables very high CV update speeds in the several hundred kilohertz and well into the megahertz range. Would be way more useful and also be applicable in other fields which gives a larger market for such digital control chips which keeps the price down too.
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Have DSI ever thought about doing new chips by the way? ... recently, the P6 has been developed with "voiceboards", which seems to be halfway there... any thoughts on making those as a chip instead, making your design even more compact and affordable maybe?
My clear impression is that the future belongs to discrete electronics synthesizers which interestingly is where it all started back in the day. Where chips can be useful are things like opamps and digital control. Actually I think the music industry should avoid making analog chips and instead work together to make digital hardware platforms that enables very high CV update speeds in the several hundred kilohertz and well into the megahertz range. Would be way more useful and also be applicable in other fields which gives a larger market for such digital control chips which keeps the price down too.
WHy not both? ... personaly I'd like to see an analog voice-chip like the CEM, just with more up to date interface, and that will not need negative voltages for operation, so that īs easily integrated into electronic hobby based projects... there is basicaly nothing like this available anymore...
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WHy not both? ... personaly I'd like to see an analog voice-chip like the CEM, just with more up to date interface, and that will not need negative voltages for operation, so that īs easily integrated into electronic hobby based projects... there is basicaly nothing like this available anymore...
Sure it would be nice of good analog filter chips existed and were wide available. But honestly they are specialty items that will be hard to manufacture and also only be available for a limited amount of time. Whereas general components are much easier upgraded should the need arise. So for me it makes much more sense to make better digital control and stick with the better sounding discrete electronics machines. Not everyone may agree with me on that of cause.
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WHy not both? ... personaly I'd like to see an analog voice-chip like the CEM, just with more up to date interface, and that will not need negative voltages for operation, so that īs easily integrated into electronic hobby based projects... there is basicaly nothing like this available anymore...
Sure it would be nice of good analog filter chips existed and were wide available. But honestly they are specialty items that will be hard to manufacture and also only be available for a limited amount of time. Whereas general components are much easier upgraded should the need arise. So for me it makes much more sense to make better digital control and stick with the better sounding discrete electronics machines. Not everyone may agree with me on that of cause.
I understand what you're saying... it's just that there are some advantages with IC's, one obvious reason being their compact size... yes they're probably expensive to design and develop, but when they're made, they're probably cheaper than a discrete circuit... other things that spring to mind are heat differencies that are usualy better maintained when enclosed in a chip... at least that's what I've read.
I know the quality in comparison probably will make them not as exiting... but then again... the SSM chips are pretty famous for what they do, and I recall those sounds darn good in the Polysix I once had.
What I had in mind was not filter chips actualy... but rather a new synth-voice on a chip, like the CEM 3396, that has it all inside it... it would be really nice for hobby-projects on small curcuit boards... one thing is certain... if a chip like that, that runs on 0-5v was ever made, I'd be all over it in an instant... I have the knowhow of coding microcontrollers for this... the only thing I cannot do is the analog parts, which is what keeps me from doing a synth myself.
A small synth-voice chip, running on 0-5v and where the only control mechanism for it would be a digital interface (no messing with CV signals etc... just clean digital control)
but hey... I'm dreaming... I know... ;)
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Thank you guys for all the information shared here. It just reinforces that I really do want a P12!
In the end, I can't hear the difference between the filters because one is just capable of being a bit brighter than the other.
It's nice to know that the 12 can have some of the analog mojo of the 08. I'd love to hear that though... videos on YouTube show me that it can't, at least not without any effects. If I could test it (which I can't), and heard that, I'd sell the 08. I just can't even think about it right now. I like the 08 and I'm not willing to sell it. I'm also in a bit of a pain to discover what to do space-wise - maybe the 12 module is inevitable.
In the end, I think I miss hearing what the 12 is really capable of. I've heard only a few of good demonstrations of the Prophet 12, and even fewer where it had an analog feel to it. Even so, almost enjoy a lot of what I hear from the 12.
Cheers! Thank you all once again!!
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I'm still giving the benefit of the doubt to the Prophet 12, which is to say I suspect many of the available demonstrations give a lopsided impression of the instrument. BUT! It also is a consistently stated opinion of owners of both that the Prophet 12 can in no way replace the Prophet '08. I would say the safest approach for you would be to keep your P0'8 and try a P12 Module.
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Thank you guys for all the information shared here. It just reinforces that I really do want a P12!
In the end, I can't hear the difference between the filters because one is just capable of being a bit brighter than the other.
It's nice to know that the 12 can have some of the analog mojo of the 08. I'd love to hear that though... videos on YouTube show me that it can't, at least not without any effects. If I could test it (which I can't), and heard that, I'd sell the 08. I just can't even think about it right now. I like the 08 and I'm not willing to sell it. I'm also in a bit of a pain to discover what to do space-wise - maybe the 12 module is inevitable.
In the end, I think I miss hearing what the 12 is really capable of. I've heard only a few of good demonstrations of the Prophet 12, and even fewer where it had an analog feel to it. Even so, almost enjoy a lot of what I hear from the 12.
Cheers! Thank you all once again!!
I also have my P08 besides the P12... I'm not ready to give up on analog oscillators to digital ones, I want them both... the analog oscillators simply sound more full, and especialy in the higher registers they're clean... the P12 has aliasing as any other digital synth when you go there... so it's nice to have analog oscillators in that case... I can certainly hear the difference between the two... the P08 is simply much fuller, more beefy, creamy... less sterile...
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It's been about a year since I dove in and purchased my P12 and I remember asking many of the same questions myself before I eventually decided to take the plunge. Now that a year has passed I must say that I'm very glad that I chose to purchase this synth.
My musical interests are fairly diverse and perhaps this is one reason why having the P12 has been the right fit for me. Currently, I'm working on a solo electronica project as well as playing piano in a jazz duo and a five piece jazz/rock band. I also recently got to work with a couple of other bands playing in a variety of styles from cacophonous free jazz to funk and soul. I don't mention all of this to toot my own horn here (no pun intended), but to say that in all of these projects the P12 has found a place in the music.
When I first got my Prophet I focused mostly on crafting solo pieces at home. At one point our band had a gig where we intended to do an entire set of improvised electronic music that featured our bass player on modular synth. I thought it was a perfect opportunity to get the P12 out of the home try it out at a gig. The group was pretty enthusiastic about its sound and so the next week I started bringing it to to practice sessions. More and more it's become a regular part of our set.
It's also worth saying that the P12 is my primary synth. The only other hardware synth I own is a Novation Ultranova - which was my first synth and I still use regularly. I'm not particularly interested in the esoteric debates about digital vs analog or whether this synth is more suited to this style of sound than another. I don't have lot of money to spend on instruments (though I'd happily collect a few more if I could :) ) and what I'm looking for is a versatile, professional quality instrument that sounds good to my ears. The P12 checks all of these boxes for me. For everyone that claims it can or can't create a certain sound there's sure to be someone that disagrees. I will say that for pretty much I every musical role I've needed it for I've been able to coax the sound I wanted from it. Big basses; funky leads; rich, evolving pads; weird glitchy mayhem; etc.. Can other synths do the same or better for certain roles? Probably. But for me the P12 has done these jobs quite well. To put it simply; I enjoy listening to the sounds this thing makes.
Really quickly, I wanted to touch on the question about the musical usefulness of the tuned feedback. I've used it on a few patches either at a static setting or with gentle modulation to get some edgy, slightly dissonant sounds. I'm by no means an expert on all the ways it could be used, but that feature really comes into it's own for me when performing live. During intense moments in improvised sections of songs the wild, almost out of control tones that can be pried from the synth with the feedback controls can really push the music into a chaotic territory that raises hairs. Those two knobs get a lot of action some nights :).
What I'm trying to offer here is less of an in depth technical review -- for that I'd check out Sound on Sound's review, but rather to share the more difficult to quantify impressions that come from getting to know an instrument. To sum it all up I'd say that my appreciation of the Prophet 12 has only increased with playing it. The people I've been playing with have really appreciated it's sound. It's a cool feeling getting to know an instrument and I'm psyched that I've had the opportunity to play a wide variety of music with this synth and I look forward to incorporating it into future projects.
-Adam
http://madebyrobotsmusic.com
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I'll just say that I love it for the seamingly endless possibilities. I often don't have any specific sound in mind but just try things. You can experiment in ways not possible with many other synths and happy accidents happen.
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I've had my eye on the P12 for about a year now and just pulled the trigger on a P12 module. Did a ton of research but with 4 OSC's, 4 LFO's, & 4 envelopes per voice and the absolutely insane modulation matrix, there was no other competition that came close to clicking all the features I wanted. Can't wait for the FedEx truck in a couple days :-)
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Sweet! Let us know how it goes once you start diving in.
-AP
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Sweet! Let us know how it goes once you start diving in.
-AP
Thanks, I will ;)
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Did anyone else see this tweet?
https://twitter.com/dsiSequential/status/673931334843170816/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/dsiSequential/status/673931334843170816/photo/1)
This is truly an amazing thing for P12 owners IMO. I was very much considering getting a P12 when they came out, but ultimately decided not to because of the lack of linear FM capabilities. Once again, I have become super interested in it!
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Did anyone else see this tweet?
https://twitter.com/dsiSequential/status/673931334843170816/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/dsiSequential/status/673931334843170816/photo/1)
This is truly an amazing thing for P12 owners IMO.
In the other forum we have been testing the linear FM since a few months ago. It is great, gives a totally new sound palette to the synth. I am impressed that the P12 can sound oberheim like in one patch and in the next it makes this DX7 piano-like sound, and in the next one you get this totally crazy digital and evolving landscape... There is no other machine that truly comes close. Well, maybe my Korg Z1 has also this wiiiiiiide and crazy sound palette (from Virtual Acoustic, realistic electric pianos, virtual analog, FM) but soundwise the P12 is more interesting.
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That's pretty exciting. I'll have to study up on FM synthesis. I've only really ever tinkered with software FM synths so the rabbit hole that is the P12 is about to get much deeper.
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To answer the original question: it's awesome. By far my favourite synth. Really solid build, great keyboard, instant access to almost every parameter from the front panel. The modulation capability is huge and easy to assign and tweak. The timbral range is immense, and you can layer and split for even more complex stuff. Now with linear FM coming it's only getting better. It's my desert island synth.
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Personaly, I find that the FM is a nice addition to the P12... very handy, but I find it more confusing to use than a REAL FM synth to be honest, and the fact that it does not have feedback options is a bit saddening, as soe of the most nice bass sounds I know from FM is only obtainable with feedback... those rubbery techno-style basses (kind of like how the Lately Bass sounds, just a bit more extreme).
But as an FM atmospheric synthscape, I think the P12 doubles tenfold with the linear FM... absolutely superb addition.
Now I'm only waiting for the official release, as some mod destinations do not work on the beta.
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the fact that it does not have feedback options is a bit saddening, as soe of the most nice bass sounds I know from FM is only obtainable with feedback...
Correct me if i am wrong, I thought that using an OSC as a modulation source of another OSC in the MOD matrix acts like FM feedback between operators? I think in the other forum we posted the original algorithms from 4OP and 6OP FM synths and most (not all) of them could be achieved.
But maybe I am just confused, my only experience with FM is the TG77 which is an awesome machine that I sold to fund my P12's purchase.
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Thank you guys for all the information shared here. It just reinforces that I really do want a P12!
In the end, I can't hear the difference between the filters because one is just capable of being a bit brighter than the other.
It's nice to know that the 12 can have some of the analog mojo of the 08. I'd love to hear that though... videos on YouTube show me that it can't, at least not without any effects. If I could test it (which I can't), and heard that, I'd sell the 08. I just can't even think about it right now. I like the 08 and I'm not willing to sell it. I'm also in a bit of a pain to discover what to do space-wise - maybe the 12 module is inevitable.
In the end, I think I miss hearing what the 12 is really capable of. I've heard only a few of good demonstrations of the Prophet 12, and even fewer where it had an analog feel to it. Even so, almost enjoy a lot of what I hear from the 12.
Cheers! Thank you all once again!!
I also have my P08 besides the P12... I'm not ready to give up on analog oscillators to digital ones, I want them both... the analog oscillators simply sound more full, and especialy in the higher registers they're clean... the P12 has aliasing as any other digital synth when you go there... so it's nice to have analog oscillators in that case... I can certainly hear the difference between the two... the P08 is simply much fuller, more beefy, creamy... less sterile...
Are you sure it is aliasing?
I have checked the oscillators on the P12 carefully with a spectrum analyser, I do see seem high frequency noise on the P12 but it isn't aliasing as far as I can see.
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I'd love to hear complex layered - but musical - pads on the Prophet 12. I've been listening to Roland JD XA videos lately, and, although it certainly doesn't rise to the level of high-quality instrument that the Prophet 12 does, still, it can make some very beautiful complex evolving pads. For whatever reason, it's easy to find such demos of the Roland, but not of the P12.
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Personaly, I find that the FM is a nice addition to the P12... very handy, but I find it more confusing to use than a REAL FM synth to be honest, and the fact that it does not have feedback options is a bit saddening, as soe of the most nice bass sounds I know from FM is only obtainable with feedback... those rubbery techno-style basses (kind of like how the Lately Bass sounds, just a bit more extreme).
I'm finding the FM a lot more rubbery once you push the envelope limits a bit more with duplicated mod slots - try three or four simultaneous slots of Env3 127 Osc1FM 8)
If you go mad and create eight Env-to-FM slots, low notes sound like elastic bands on steroids! ;)
Martin
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I'd love to hear complex layered - but musical - pads on the Prophet 12. I've been listening to Roland JD XA videos lately, and, although it certainly doesn't rise to the level of high-quality instrument that the Prophet 12 does, still, it can make some very beautiful complex evolving pads. For whatever reason, it's easy to find such demos of the Roland, but not of the P12.
What about these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IzyHt-VY24 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IzyHt-VY24)
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Yes, I've heard that one. Not bad, but I think the depth comes more from the Strymon Bigsky than from the instrument. I mean rich layered pads, rather than just dreaminess. I found the JD-XA to excel at these, without too much processing.
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Yes, I've heard that one. Not bad, but I think the depth comes more from the Strymon Bigsky than from the instrument. I mean rich layered pads, rather than just dreaminess. I found the JD-XA to excel at these, without too much processing.
Gotcha. I was just thinking of these, since the JD-XA is rarely heard without its internal effects.
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Gotcha. I was just thinking of these, since the JD-XA is rarely heard without its internal effects.
That's true, but I haven't heard it yet with nearly as much reverb as the previous video.
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Have you seen (or rather, heard) this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3La5LE3kvA
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Yes, I've heard that one. Not bad.
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I think I have seen this one before, eXode and it may possibly be via forum or DSI twitter. Have heard it a number of times today and really liked some of the bits. Nice to hear Prophet 12 sound design evolve and also to experience the synth herds evolve towards liking this digital front end machine. ;)
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I was intrigued by this last post by "Hoegge" on the old forum and was hoping for a more detailed response from others, either there or here:
http://dsiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&p=66330#p66326
What do you Prophet 12 users think of his descriptions? Does he have a lemon of a unit, not know what he's talking about, or are his descriptions of the waveforms accurate?
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A single post slagging of the P12.
He says he has noise at 12db, I guess he meant -12db on three different P12s. A load of crap in my opinion.
The waves sound pretty normal to me, the square and saw without filtering are slightly buzzy compared to some other synths but when the filter on the P12 is open it is really open unlike many synths.
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I'm asking because I thought the "digital sheen" issue that so many users had complained about had been resolved with updates. Maybe he has an old OS.
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They did make some improvements to the 11K spike with one of the updates. There were also some boards manufactured that had more of a problem I think and DSI replaced these.
On mine with volume up full the 11K peak is between -98db and -106db depending on what is going on. This spike is post filter as well so you cannot filter it out but in reality you have to really try to hear it by monitoring at an extremely high volume level and not actually playing anything!
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I've examined the waveforms on mine, and the sinewave is very good, with a tiny 0.7% THD (mostly 2nd harmonic), while the strongest non-harmonic aliasing spike (around 3.1kHz) is around 60dB lower than the fundamental.
Yes, the sawtooth and pulse aren't quite their classic mathematical shapes (like various other synths), but are fairly close, and rolling off the top end of the filter makes the waveform look slightly better if you're into that sort of thing.
Meanwhile background noise is 80dB below peak level when no notes are playing.
By the way, I see absolutely no 11kHz spike on mine - and as mentioned above, this 3.1kHz spike is inaudible to me when notes are playing.
EDIT: 11kHz spike has since put in an appearance on some programs, but at a very low 85dB below peak note levels
I consider all these very good results, and am quite happy with the fidelity of my P12.
Martin
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Is your 3.1 spike always in the same place or is it note dependent?
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Is your 3.1 spike always in the same place or is it note dependent?
It does move about a bit as you play across most of the keyboard, but stays in the 3kHz region.
Here's a screengrab of Basic Program, but with sawtooth switched to Sine, playing a 100Hz note. Peak level of the fundamental with a single note is -20dB, while playing 12 simultaneous notes raises the total peak level to around 0dB, for correct gain staging.
Notice the low THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) reading of 0.8%, and the two non-harmonic spectral lines around 3kHz around 60dB lower than the fundamental and then at even lower levels at their own harmonics of 6 and 9kHz.
Yes, that topmost spectral line is the infamous 11kHz, at a miniscule -95dB, i.e. a huge 75dB lower then the 100Hz fundamental.
Martin
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Very strange, I don't get that 3K one at all, my 11K one is a little bit louder than yours but not significant.
Very weird, are you sure it is definitely originating in the P12?
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Very strange, I don't get that 3K one at all, my 11K one is a little bit louder than yours but not significant.
Very weird, are you sure it is definitely originating in the P12?
Oh yes, here's another screengrab where I add another 11 notes one after the other - you can see that the combined peak level (upper right bar meter) is now close to 0dB as previously mentioned, while each note contributes its own clutch of lines around 3, 6, 9 kHz, which suggests to me that they may actually be harmonically related to their fundamentals.
They are still all low in value though (nearly 60dB down on the note fundamentals), and I can't actively hear them in context. Bear in mind also that this is a very lab-related test - continuous sinewaves = which doesn't bear much relation to what we actually do when playing the P12 ;)
Martin
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Very strange.
I get the same effect on the 11k signal when I play multiple notes but I do not have the ones around 3K or 6K at all.
It might be worth you emailing DSI with that graph and asking them what is going on as it really does' look normal to me.
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How is this done then?... is it purely via software, making the range broader
Yes. Exactly.
As for making new chips...making chips is crazy expensive and difficult. You need like, electron tunneling microscopes and things like that. You really are much better off using other people's chips sold at volume (because volume is basically the only way chip-manufacturing makes any sense).
I'm speculating, but it is possible that lack of good/suitable chip parts is as much a driver of the new "discrete" DSI as the market preference for discrete over chips (because of the incorrect assumption/belief that "tiny chips can't carry or make big sound the way fat components can!")
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Reviving this topic just to thank everyone who answered here.
Giving you guys some feedback, I just want to state that a Prophet 12 is really, without a question, exactly what I need for my music and sonic explorations.
I'm currently working with ambient and electronic music, and the P08 just can't do everything I want. Maybe I'll add a P6 module someday... for now, just selling it. Love the sound, but I'm choosing this because of lacking space in my men-cave.
I discovered that the P12 is an outstanding pad machine and will fill my need for deeper synthesis options, and a small amount of my FM fixation. I've heard some excellent new demonstrations of sounds that I didn't want before, but now certainly do. These metallic sounds and also big ambient pads and textures are exactly what I need.
Once again, thank you all for your help. I really appreciate it.
Cheers!
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Sweet! I'll be interested to hear what you cook up after some time with your P12.
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I find that when I listen back to what I played with the p12, its more expressive than I intended. The sound engine is like, simple enough to use and understand fast and direct and complicated enough to do deeper stuff if you want..
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A bit late to the thread ..... I've owned a P12 (keyboard) for over a year now and absolutely love it. This thing IS phat! I can program Moog leads and basses easily. I do like the oscillators for the additional (beyond the usual analog waveforms) tones possible. Build quality is excellent and programming is so much fun. I do use it live as well as in the studio. The touch sliders and pedal mod possibilities are great and are used frequently. Excellent synth!
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Hey guys, I'm back. Just sold my Prophet 08 for a fair value...
I'm sad about it, but it had to go so I could open space for a Prophet 12.
Now it's time to search YouTube for every new video since June. 8)
Once again, thank you all for your input. It was really much appreciated and I've read all of them several times. One interesting thing I'll do as soon as it gets here is compare some sounds I've used a lot inside the 08 and convert them by using Patch Morpher so I can use them on the P12.
If anyone wants to say something new about the 12, I'm all ears.
Cheers!
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Congratulations, cr73645! Let us know how everything works out. I'd definitely be interested in your thoughts about how the patches compare between the '08 and the 12.
Also: Now it's your turn to post some YouTube videos. ;D
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Congratulations, cr73645! Let us know how everything works out. I'd definitely be interested in your thoughts about how the patches compare between the '08 and the 12.
The same goes for me! I'd love to hear your thoughts on how the two instruments compare.
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is there anything like patch morpher on pc besides the soundtower thingie? with the bad reviews and the price they are asking for it i'm not too keen on using it. But my presets are getting messy, so i'd love to at least rearrange them in an easy way. All tips welcome!
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One interesting thing I'll do as soon as it gets here is compare some sounds I've used a lot inside the 08 and convert them by using Patch Morpher so I can use them on the P12.
Just got the P12 and I'm using patchmorpher to convert several custom patches from the P08 (which I've had for a while). Patchmorpher is a great starting point and takes care of a lot of the tedium, egs., setting osc shapes, modulation routings, etc., but it isn't perfect. The parameter values aren't really 1:1, with the P12 usually having a wider range. Patchmorpher does seem to be trying to take care this already, but I still have to do some tweaking.
So far, several patches have ended up sounding pretty close. But, I found the P12 struggled to match the P08 in some cases:
1. Filter audio mod. P12 does osc->filter mod for each osc (which takes up slots in the mod matrix), but it is not the same as the P08. If you use this a lot, I think you'll notice the difference.
2. The P12 has less bass overall by default. Not sure why. You can of course try to correct this with the char section or sub osc.
3. The resonance behavior is somehow slightly different. I know it is supposed to be the same filter, but there is this bass roleoff on the P08 with increased resonance that is not as noticable on the P12. Almost becomes a HPF on the P08.
4. The upper registers sound different on the P08 for some patches. Smoother than the P12. I don't want to use the A-word yet, maybe I haven't dug into the P12 enough to figure out what is going on.
5. There is this very pleasant (IMO) phasing-like sound you get on the P08, especially with similar waveforms on both oscillators & maybe slight detune and slop. Nice on string-like sounds and great in a wide stereo field. I couldn't exactly replicate it on the P12 using just slop & tune. It will probably need additional prcoessing.
That's all so far. I'm leaning toward keeping both the P12 & P08. Needless to say, the P12 does a bazillion different things that the P08 doesn't, and that's fantastic.
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I've a Mopho KB and I made some tests side by side, I managed to reproduce the sounds, but I had to close slightly the filter on the P'12 (the cutoff at 3 o'clock on the Mopho, 2 - 2 1/2 on the P'12).
And now, the osc slop is a full destination in the mod matrix, which can allow to make very subtle detunes :)
I'm one of the first buyers, definitely my favourite synth :)
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Thank you Paul and Tim. Yes, I'm going to post things on YouTube... my channel is on a slow update routine, but I plan on doing more stuff - I was moving from my apartment and things weren't exactly comfortable for me (everything boxed, except the modules). Now I'm almost finishing my new room...
@Grimulkan
Excellent response. This is what I want to do with Patch Morpher - even if it is not giving exact results, I want it to give me at least some of the same vibe with the patches, and then work from it.
Regarding your observations, I know how to work on some digital oscillators limitations, such as "not base enough" and "oscillator beating". Since the 12 is a real beast when it comes to modulation possibilities, it won't be a real challenge. I'm not even expecting it to do bass sounds to be honest. I also like what you've said about the filter - I didn't like losing my bass with the 08, maybe the 12 can really do something different.
@Mr Kay
I'm glad that the 12 can hold its own against the MoPho. Maybe that's saying something about the 08... ;)
Cheers!
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BTW, I discovered there is a separate "audio out" mod source on the P12, which saves mod slots if you're trying to approximate P08's audio mod and does it better. For some reason, Patchmorpher uses the individual osc->filter modulation while converting. Maybe P12 firmware was updated to add it at some point but Patchmorpher's convertor wasn't.