The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => TORAIZ => Topic started by: eXode on January 19, 2017, 12:34:53 AM
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Interesting, a spiritual successor to the Mopho by Pioneer and DSI? Pioneer Toraiz AS-1:
http://djtechtools.com/2017/01/19/toraiz-1-pioneer-dj-launching-synth-namm-2017/
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And people complain about mini keys, lets see what they say about this one!
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And people complain about mini keys, lets see what they say about this one!
I'm guessing that this is more about tapping down sequences on the go than actual playing. It is marketed as a DJ Product after all.
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Interresting. Are they phasing out the cheaper DSI in favor of doing the low cost devices with Pioneer now and focusing the DSI brand on the higher end of the market?
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Interesting, a spiritual successor to the Mopho by Pioneer and DSI? Pioneer Toraiz AS-1:
http://djtechtools.com/2017/01/19/toraiz-1-pioneer-dj-launching-synth-namm-2017/
It's basically the Pro-One everybody was asking for after the release of the Prophet-6.
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Interesting, a spiritual successor to the Mopho by Pioneer and DSI? Pioneer Toraiz AS-1:
http://djtechtools.com/2017/01/19/toraiz-1-pioneer-dj-launching-synth-namm-2017/
Partnering with Pioneer is a pretty brilliant solution to the problem of staying price-competitive with small instruments. It looks attractive, has quarter-inch outputs rather than RCA. It doesn't look like there are any particular compromises that came out of being aimed at DJs. Lack of an audio in is unfortunate, but the Prophet 6 doesn't have it either.
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It's basically the Pro-One everybody was asking for after the release of the Prophet-6.
I can't decide whether to rejoice that they saw the need, or despair that it's in a desktop format. The Mopho Keyboard followed the Mopho Desktop, of course, so who knows.
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It's basically the Pro-One everybody was asking for after the release of the Prophet-6.
I can't decide whether to rejoice that they saw the need, or despair that it's in a desktop format. The Mopho Keyboard followed the Mopho Desktop, of course, so who knows.
I think you already answered your own question by stating this:
Partnering with Pioneer is a pretty brilliant solution to the problem of staying price-competitive with small instruments.
So I would assume, this is it. Plus: the AS-1 already has a keyboard, sort of.
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Don't know if this has been postet here yet:
https://youtu.be/JUDZoDJHzdA
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https://youtu.be/JUDZoDJHzdA
Nice. It's funny how interested I am in what is in the background of this video, with essentially no interest in what Dave is actually talking about.
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It's basically the Pro-One everybody was asking for after the release of the Prophet-6.
I can't decide whether to rejoice that they saw the need, or despair that it's in a desktop format. The Mopho Keyboard followed the Mopho Desktop, of course, so who knows.
I think you already answered your own question by stating this:
Partnering with Pioneer is a pretty brilliant solution to the problem of staying price-competitive with small instruments.
Well, there's a big difference between recognizing a nice solution to a manufacturing problem and wanting to buy a thing. I don't think that the partnership means "all DSI monosynths will be made by Pioneer," and I think there's a place for a high-end monophonic synth with the P6 architecture, with the wood case and everything.
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Here's an image of the Toraiz AS-1:
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2017/01/19/dave-smith-instruments-pioneer-dj-announce-toraiz-as-1-monophonic-synth/
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The one thing that's make or break for me....can the sequences be transposed on the fly without having to hold down the record button?
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The one thing that's make or break for me....can the sequences be transposed on the fly without having to hold down the record button?
It looks that way.
This should totally flatten out the vintage monosynth + sequencer market (Roland MC-202, et al)–after all, with two VCOs, a sub-oscillator, cross-mod and an SSM filter or two, with built-in effects, how could one complain? I'd chuck a three-octave MIDI controller on it and call it a day.
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The one thing that's make or break for me....can the sequences be transposed on the fly without having to hold down the record button?
It looks that way.
This should totally flatten out the vintage monosynth + sequencer market (Roland MC-202, et al)–after all, with two VCOs, a sub-oscillator, cross-mod and an SSM filter or two, with built-in effects, how could one complain? I'd chuck a three-octave MIDI controller on it and call it a day.
I agree.... also for me I preferred the sound of the OB-6 over the P-6 (but that assessment is just from YouTube videos) yet the AS-1 sounds very nice to me from the demo.
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The one thing that's make or break for me....can the sequences be transposed on the fly without having to hold down the record button?
It looks that way.
This should totally flatten out the vintage monosynth + sequencer market (Roland MC-202, et al)–after all, with two VCOs, a sub-oscillator, cross-mod and an SSM filter or two, with built-in effects, how could one complain? I'd chuck a three-octave MIDI controller on it and call it a day.
That was my main gripe with the Prophet 6. You couldn't transpose the sequence without having to hold the Record button. I'm not sure why while the Sequencer is on you could engage the Hold button which would allow you to do this. I really hope that's part of a new OS.
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The one thing that's make or break for me....can the sequences be transposed on the fly without having to hold down the record button?
In one of the YT NAMM demo videos the presenter transposes the held arp, so there's that at least! Maybe you can do this with the sequence too.
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The P6 sounds great as a mono in single-voice unison mode so, despite recently selling my P6, I'm actually pretty interested in this as a Minitaur replacement/alternative.
I even don't mind the limited UI as it appears to give me the numerical values for parameters that I so missed on the P6.
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Why has this thread been placed in "other Hardware/Software" ?
The synth has Dave Smith Instruments written on it, as well as Pioneer, and the devices are also present here on DSI's webpage... how much did Pioneer actually create in this exept for the design, to warrant this to be considdered "other hardware/software" ? :D
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Why has this thread been placed in "other Hardware/Software" ?
The synth has Dave Smith Instruments written on it, as well as Pioneer, and the devices are also present here on DSI's webpage... how much did Pioneer actually create in this exept for the design, to warrant this to be considdered "other hardware/software" ? :D
NOTE to MODERATORS: while I understand that you wish to flow support-related questions and discussions through to Pioneer DJ, could we have a sub-forum setup (similar to the Prophet-* structure) for discussion of the Toraiz units?
I, for one, will be buying one of these.
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Okay, I moved this thread back to "Off Topic". The reasoning behind moving it over to "Other Hardware/Software" was that I thought it might be associated more with Pioneer and because the Toraiz products are not listed on DSI's product site.
I'll ask DSI to create a subforum for Toraiz-related products after the NAMM weekend is over. I can't create a new subforum from scratch myself because I don't have general admin rights over the forum as a whole.
Hope this will do for the coming days.
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I would think that folks with questions about the AS-1 would be welcome here to ask questions about it, and those questions would be answered, if possible, even though it's not nominally a DSI product.
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Since it's a two VCO voice can each VCO be tuned differently?
I also wish there was an ability to chain sequences. I wonder if there's a hands off work around for that.
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Since it's a two VCO voice can each VCO be tuned differently?
Yes, oscillators 1 and 2 each have a "base frequency" control with a 9-octave range, adjustable in semitones. Oscillator 2 has a fine-tune control.
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Since it's a two VCO voice can each VCO be tuned differently?
Yes, oscillators 1 and 2 each have a "base frequency" control with a 9-octave range, adjustable in semitones. Oscillator 2 has a fine-tune control.
Awesome. I don't see them on the panel. I'm assuming you have to hold Shift and menu dive a bit.
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"We’ve essentially concluded that the AS1 is the modern day Pro One."
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2017/01/26/pioneer-dave-smith-instruments-toraiz-as-1-synthesizer-audio-demo/
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Sounds pretty good :)
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I would love to hear a Pro 2 controlling a Toraiz AS-1. This would make for a huge range of mono synth sounds together with programmability. The two instruments seem like a natural pair.
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I would love to hear a Pro 2 controlling a Toraiz AS-1. This would make for a huge range of mono synth sounds together with programmability. The two instruments seem like a natural pair.
...already in my purchasing plan for the year, to combine with Pro-2 and SEM. I've been very impressed with the demos so far.
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I would love to hear a Pro 2 controlling a Toraiz AS-1. This would make for a huge range of mono synth sounds together with programmability. The two instruments seem like a natural pair.
...already in my purchasing plan for the year, to combine with Pro-2 and SEM. I've been very impressed with the demos so far.
Yikes, that would make one mammoth mono synth! One center, one left, and one right? That's how I configure my Prophet '08 system at the mixer.
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I would love to hear a Pro 2 controlling a Toraiz AS-1. This would make for a huge range of mono synth sounds together with programmability. The two instruments seem like a natural pair.
...already in my purchasing plan for the year, to combine with Pro-2 and SEM. I've been very impressed with the demos so far.
Yikes, that would make one mammoth mono synth! One center, one left, and one right? That's how I configure my Prophet '08 system at the mixer.
The Pro-2 + SEM is interesting (each panned to 10:00 / 2:00), once you dial in the Pro-2 to match the quirks of the SEM's filter tracking / envelopes, etc. The Toraiz AS-1 would be the other prong, so to speak, using the SSM-style filter on each.
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Welcome to the new TORAIZ subforum!
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This sounds like a great sequencer. Shame you can't chain the sequences. It would go well along side my Prophet 6. Set a sequence on the Toraiz AS-1 and play a lead or pads on the Prophet 6.
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Wonder if DSI did the voice OS for the AS-1 and if the sysex messages will be documented including the program vector format.
DSI mentioned something about making two keyboards this year. Perhaps a new Pro One based on one voice of Prophet-6 would be released in the summer? Personally I would prefer it to be a Prophet-2 with external input and support for panning the voices in stereo. More modulation features would be cool too!
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DSI mentioned something about making two keyboards this year. Perhaps a new Pro One based on one voice of Prophet-6 would be released in the summer?
I was wondering about that. Did DSI specifically say two keyboards? I remember their mentioning only two instruments. I thought the two announced at NAMM were all there would be this year.
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DSI mentioned something about making two keyboards this year. Perhaps a new Pro One based on one voice of Prophet-6 would be released in the summer?
Where did you read about 2 keyboards? In their New Years message they only mentioned the following: "In fact, at this very moment we’re hard at work on some interesting new things for 2017 and beyond. In mid-January you’ll get to see the first of these."
That only indicates more than the REV2 for this year, but not any specifications about the format of further planned instruments.
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I cant remember where I saw it. Possibly in their new years posting which seems to have been removed now. Or in a Dave interview. And of cause I could be remembering it wrong.
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I was wondering if the two announced at NAMM were all there would be this year, or if one instrument still remained to be announced. A Sequential mono synth would be very exciting - almost as exciting as the REV2!
Given the way they described it in the note I quoted above, the REV2 has to be the first and only instrument they talked about announcing in mid-January. The AS-1 doesn't count because it's manufactured by Pioneer. As Dave mentioned in some NAMM videos, the AS-1 is considered to be one half of a DSI instrument. Hence, I don't think it was included in the New Years message. Either way, that leaves us with "new things for 2017 and beyond" minus the REV2 and the AS-1.
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Translation for outsiders: good old patience as we know it! ;)
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I cant remember where I saw it. Possibly in their new years posting which seems to have been removed now. Or in a Dave interview. And of cause I could be remembering it wrong.
Yeah, I pasted the according sentence from the New Years message into my post above. There were two more interviews from before the NAMM show in which Dave said that there will be more synths in the future (without mentioning any specific time frame). That's about it.
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They'll probably bring out the desktop module and be like "See! A new synth!" Lol
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Haha no. We'd never consider a desktop module of an existing instrument a brand new synth, although as I've mentioned elsewhere on our forum any product we release whether big or small still takes significant time and resources to develop.
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At least it was a smaller module this time around. Thanks!
Questions: How was the software development split between DSI and Pioneer? Voice OS by DSI? How about OS for the UI? Did DSI make the front panel and user interface design alone? How much contributed Pioneer to UI?
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At least it was a smaller module this time around. Thanks!
Questions: How was the software development split between DSI and Pioneer? Voice OS by DSI? How about OS for the UI? Did DSI make the front panel and user interface design alone? How much contributed Pioneer to UI?
I can't speak for DSI, but I'd guess that the AS-1 display and the REV2 display libraries are similar (as the Prophet-6 does not have a graphical display).
Can you think of any reason as to why Pioneer would need to add anything to the AS-1? I'd surmise that it was probably a canned unit in terms of voice architecture, effects and underlying code, with a few design constraints* thrown in to hit its ambitious price point.
* - or features removed that would have not been relevant for the target market, e.g., effects types
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Is it just me or is there no "Noise" knob on there? Assuming it has this feature it accessed via some menu diving?
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Is it just me or is there no "Noise" knob on there? Assuming it has this feature it accessed via some menu diving?
The Noise Level parameter is part of the mixer section/page. You'll find all the specs over here: https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/product/production/toraiz-as-1/black/specifications/
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Does anyone know if there will be a PC Editor and if so, who is doing the code? Thanks.
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So I found out that Soundtower will be doing the editor for the AS-1 in case anyone is interested. Pass.
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Since the synth is basically a 1-voice Prophet 6, I bet ALL of the code was done by DSI... they have the code for it, they have the knowledge of it, it would only be more complicated, if some of the Pioneer people would be involved in it (I bet DSI remember the problems working with others on the Tempest regarding user samples)... If I am right, Pioneer probably designed the housing, since this is way different than what DSI normally does, but all the rest I'm fairly certain is done by DSI.... For some reason, there must be some benefit on the sales and manufacturing by Pioneer because I really see this synth as a DSI synth, in Pioneer's clothing... nothing else.
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Since the synth is basically a 1-voice Prophet 6, I bet ALL of the code was done by DSI... they have the code for it, they have the knowledge of it, it would only be more complicated, if some of the Pioneer people would be involved in it (I bet DSI remember the problems working with others on the Tempest regarding user samples)... If I am right, Pioneer probably designed the housing, since this is way different than what DSI normally does, but all the rest I'm fairly certain is done by DSI.... For some reason, there must be some benefit on the sales and manufacturing by Pioneer because I really see this synth as a DSI synth, in Pioneer's clothing... nothing else.
...which would explain a quick SoundTower port (change a few SysEx headers, remove Unison setting, adapt FX options).
It also means that DSI now has a bit of experience with Pioneer Pro DJ Link: http://faq.pioneerdj.com/files/img/DRI1124C.pdf
And, as an aside, check out this remark from Roger Linn:
During Tempest development, here's a much more elaborate design we considered. I'm still working on a drum machine but it won't be like this. It will have a combination of the real-time live performance workflow of Tempest plus samples and the expressive 3D touch sensing of LinnStrument.
That might be an interesting 1 + 1 = 5 iff Pioneer DJ were to become involved.
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"We’ve essentially concluded that the AS1 is the modern day Pro One."
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2017/01/26/pioneer-dave-smith-instruments-toraiz-as-1-synthesizer-audio-demo/
Just please make a keyboard version.
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Toraiz SP-16 & AS-1 @Dancefair 2017:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20dBPjR2Kok
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"We’ve essentially concluded that the AS1 is the modern day Pro One."
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2017/01/26/pioneer-dave-smith-instruments-toraiz-as-1-synthesizer-audio-demo/
Just please make a keyboard version.
It would be nice to combine 4 engines into a keyboard version and have a Pro 4. A VCO based, 4 engine synth where you can run four sequences simultaneously with different patches, run two sequences and play the other two patches live, chain sequences...almost like a Two Voice Pro...but with 4 voices and with the Prophet 6 sound. Hell...stack all four engines for one massive mono synth tone.
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Now shipping! I hope to have mine by week's end.
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Arrived today - and really quite good!
I still firmly believe that THIS is the modern equivalent of the Pro-One, relative to the Prophet-6. The unit is built very solidly (on Pioneer DJ's behalf, in Malaysia) and sounds the part.
The lack of built-in reverb effects is actually a plus, as it shows off its naked strengths without any sonic sugar-coating.
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The one thing that's make or break for me....can the sequences be transposed on the fly without having to hold down the record button?
This is what I am wondering, if you can "play" the sequencer on the fly. That, and if I can use it like a regular mono synth with an external MIDI keyboard. Both seem like obvious yes's but not seeing much online yet.
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Arrived today - and really quite good!
I still firmly believe that THIS is the modern equivalent of the Pro-One, relative to the Prophet-6. The unit is built very solidly (on Pioneer DJ's behalf, in Malaysia) and sounds the part.
The lack of built-in reverb effects is actually a plus, as it shows off its naked strengths without any sonic sugar-coating.
Congrats! Looks like a fun synth. I had an original Evolver back in the day that I ended up selling out of financial desperation and this is looking to be it's replacement. I didn't like the rotary encoders nor the clunky menu system though with all the shifting and whatnot. This seems to have just what I need no more no less. I did want to ask, it doesn't have reverb but it does have delay, correct?
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Arrived today - and really quite good!
I still firmly believe that THIS is the modern equivalent of the Pro-One, relative to the Prophet-6. The unit is built very solidly (on Pioneer DJ's behalf, in Malaysia) and sounds the part.
The lack of built-in reverb effects is actually a plus, as it shows off its naked strengths without any sonic sugar-coating.
Congrats! Looks like a fun synth. I had an original Evolver back in the day that I ended up selling out of financial desperation and this is looking to be it's replacement. I didn't like the rotary encoders nor the clunky menu system though with all the shifting and whatnot. This seems to have just what I need no more no less. I did want to ask, it doesn't have reverb but it does have delay, correct?
Yes - bucket brigade delay (BBD) emulation.
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The one thing that's make or break for me....can the sequences be transposed on the fly without having to hold down the record button?
This is what I am wondering, if you can "play" the sequencer on the fly. That, and if I can use it like a regular mono synth with an external MIDI keyboard. Both seem like obvious yes's but not seeing much online yet.
Yes - I'm using a Mopho SE with it presently.
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The packaging loooks quite nice, better then the DSI packages. But probably more costly.
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All I know is it sounds fat and blows away any TB-303 anyday :-)
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Well I said that wrong and can't delete it. It sounds very good. When I first got started with synthesizers everyone wanted a TB-303. I wanted a mini moog. I somehow came across a Sequential Circuits Prophet-10 and Oberheim Matrix 12. Never found a mini moog. TB-303 is fun but it only does one thing: acid. This is a far more versatile instrument and sounds great.
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Arrived today - and really quite good!
I still firmly believe that THIS is the modern equivalent of the Pro-One, relative to the Prophet-6. The unit is built very solidly (on Pioneer DJ's behalf, in Malaysia) and sounds the part.
The lack of built-in reverb effects is actually a plus, as it shows off its naked strengths without any sonic sugar-coating.
Hi David,
I have been thinking of getting one and now that the honeymoon is over I'm wondering what do you think of it?
Cheers
Andy
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Arrived today - and really quite good!
I still firmly believe that THIS is the modern equivalent of the Pro-One, relative to the Prophet-6. The unit is built very solidly (on Pioneer DJ's behalf, in Malaysia) and sounds the part.
The lack of built-in reverb effects is actually a plus, as it shows off its naked strengths without any sonic sugar-coating.
Hi David,
I have been thinking of getting one and now that the honeymoon is over I'm wondering what do you think of it?
Cheers
Andy
It feels like a gateway drug to a proper Prophet-6, to be honest :) ; I've got a Prophet-600 that it rides sidecar to, but I'm seriously considering the idea of building a keyboard housing for the AS-1, a la the old Roland SH units of the 70s (parking the module at left).
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Yeah I did worry about the progression to a P6.
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Yeah I did worry about the progression to a P6.
I went the other way. Owned a P6 for a year or so but eventually couldn't justify keeping such an expensive instrument that I didn't quite bond with. The majority of my favourite P6 sounds were actually monophonic, much to my surprise, and after a few months without the P6 I found myself missing that sound. The AS-1 gets me 90% of what I liked about the P6 at a price I can afford and a form factor I can accommodate in my limited studio space.
There are actually things that I prefer about the AS-1 too. The extra headroom is nice and I love having an OLED screen with patch names and visible parameter values. The slider is great too and makes it easier to dial in subtle LFO modulation, which is something I struggled with on the P6.
Without doubt the P6 is a beautiful instrument but I didn't love it as a poly, far preferring my P'08 with its varied modulation options in that role. If money and space were no object then I would have kept it. As it is, with the AS-1 drafted in to replace it, I don't miss the P6 at all.
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Interesting. So is the AS-1 a straight P6 voice or is anything missing?
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Interesting. So is the AS-1 a straight P6 voice or is anything missing?
The available effects section is different (no reverbs, etc.) but the rest looks to be a straight-up P6 voice.
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Yeah I did worry about the progression to a P6.
I went the other way. Owned a P6 for a year or so but eventually couldn't justify keeping such an expensive instrument that I didn't quite bond with. The majority of my favourite P6 sounds were actually monophonic, much to my surprise, and after a few months without the P6 I found myself missing that sound. The AS-1 gets me 90% of what I liked about the P6 at a price I can afford and a form factor I can accommodate in my limited studio space.
There are actually things that I prefer about the AS-1 too. The extra headroom is nice and I love having an OLED screen with patch names and visible parameter values. The slider is great too and makes it easier to dial in subtle LFO modulation, which is something I struggled with on the P6.
Without doubt the P6 is a beautiful instrument but I didn't love it as a poly, far preferring my P'08 with its varied modulation options in that role. If money and space were no object then I would have kept it. As it is, with the AS-1 drafted in to replace it, I don't miss the P6 at all.
There's something about a VCO-based unison stack that feels right, compared to a DCO-based voice, though it only fits into a mix a certain way–in that respect, the P6 could be considered a more-expensive monosynth!
For many applications, though, you can get away with just one (two-oscillator + sub) voice, which sounds pretty good, even with the reduced number of modulation destinations of the P6-style voice (relative to the P8/Rev2 one).
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Yeah. I found anything over 2 or 3 unison voices of the P6 just too heavy to fit into my mixes. I was never entirely sure whether Slop in unison mode was a genuine fixed detune either.
The single P6/AS-1 voice seems plenty weighty enough to hold its own in a mix. The chorus and phaser effects go some way to providing some tonal modulation too. :)
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Anyone with the Prophet-6 and AS1?
I use the Prophet-6’s bass patch 357 (VBass) pretty much as my standard bass sound (mono/no unison).
I saw that VBass is on the AS1 voice list too.
Can anyone comment on their similarities? Is it a perfect match to the same patch on the Prophet-6, is it weaker or otherwise not of the same quality?
Thanks ;)
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The AS-1 is literally a single voice out of the Prophet-6. There are some slight differences in the effects implementation between the two instruments but otherwise they sound very similar.
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The AS-1 is literally a single voice out of the Prophet-6.
Thanks. I’m going to order one.
It’ll be nice to just have a dedicated Bass mono synth. I never realised how cheap the AS-1 was.
I’m not to concerned about the effects tbh. I have an ElCapistan gathering dust so I’ll probably hardwire it to the AS-1 for all delay and spring Reverb needs. ;)
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Arrived yesterday, so quick.
That VBass patch is identical on both the AS1 and Prophet 6, as were all the other patches I compared.
Working from the Basic Patch, I picked an easy target and whipped up Yazoo’s Bass from Don’t Go in a minute. No menu diving. I feared there would be, but no. I didn’t even touch the dedicated knobs. Anyway, it’s my new sequencer driven Bass synth. Brilliant.
My only complaint about it is that I didn’t know about it earlier than 2weeks ago!
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Is it possible to reset the calibration table on this?
I use it almost every day (as a bass synth) and every day it goes out of tune and I have to recalibrate it. Even on single oscillator patches.
It’s been a few months now.
Pioneer have not responded to a dozen emails.
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Is it possible to reset the calibration table on this?
I use it almost every day (as a bass synth) and every day it goes out of tune and I have to recalibrate it. Even on single oscillator patches.
It’s been a few months now.
Pioneer have not responded to a dozen emails.
Try the Pioneer forum. They’re pretty responsive on such queries.
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Is it possible to reset the calibration table on this?
Didn't see your followup question, apologies.
You can clear the calibration table from the debug menu. Hold Transpose Up + Transpose Down and press Global to enter debug.
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Thanks for that, I’ll give it a go.
I also found out that my AS1 was a returned B stock unit. :'(
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Here is a little Demo, i Put together Out of preset Sounds.
https://youtu.be/96wkCct50a8