The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet => Prophet '08 => Topic started by: lnetzel on December 04, 2015, 08:24:01 AM
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Any creative usage to share?
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The most obvious use for the third envelope is a delayed vibrato. But not only the attack parameter is useful here. I often set the depth to create a vibrato that is just a tad too wide, and then, with the delay and sustain parameters, have the vibrato decrease to a more musical level. This creates a very expressive and natural-sounding effect, just like a violin vibrato.
Using the third envelope in this way also frees up the keyboard aftertouch for creating effects other than vibrato.
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Seems once you get used to having a third envelope it's hard to go back to a instrument w/o it. I've used it for bringing in a delayed oscillator and controlling any delayed lfo attacks.
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Seems once you get used to having a third envelope it's hard to go back to a instrument w/o it.
Boy, that's the truth! I'm spoiled rotten by the classic DSI voice architecture and can hardly make music without it now.
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I quite often use Env3 with a long decay and release, and use that to bring in resonance or noise to a decaying sound. It's the absence of those kinds of effects that frustrate me on Prophet 6. ;-)
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Thanks for your comments, I'm still not completely friends with it, but I've played around a little gotten "swells" of things with the release and it gives more live to the patch, it does.
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The third envelope is an excellent sound design tool if you understand exactly what an envelope is. Just as the VCA envelope controls volume according to its shape, and the VCF envelope controls the filter according to its shape, so the Env 3 controls modulation behavior according to its shape. Attack, decay, and release refer to lengths of time, whereas sustain refers to an amount. Some instruments and manuals have included a useful envelope diagram that adds a visual aspect to envelopes. Here's one image:
http://www.practical-music-production.com/images/adsr-envelope.jpg
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I mostly used the 3rd oscillator for either delayed modulation effects, as a second filter envelope, to control the filter's resonance over time, to control the slave oscillator's pitch in sync mode, or - which was amongst my favorites - to control a LFO frequency.
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I actualy use it most for a rather unusual trick... the P08 do not have any means to pan Layer A and B to L/R, which is crucial to make really wide sounding presets... I use the ENV3 to give a constant value to the PanSpread parameter, but with opposite polarity between Layer A and B... this way it's possible to have one layer playing on the left side, and the other layer on the right side... actualy the Layers are still bouncing from one side to the other, but the use of the ENV3 makes it possible that they do not bounce at the same side simultaneously, and if both Layers sound relatively the same (with only minor variances to pitch etc.), then you can get EXTREMELY wide spatial sounds with it.
Lately I've found that you can actualy do the same using the sequencers in step mode too... so there is another way of doing this, if you need ENV3 for other tasks...
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...I use the ENV3 to give a constant value to the PanSpread parameter, but with opposite polarity between Layer A and B...
What do you mean, amount value -127 for one layer and 127 for the other?
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...I use the ENV3 to give a constant value to the PanSpread parameter, but with opposite polarity between Layer A and B...
What do you mean, amount value -127 for one layer and 127 for the other?
Basicaly yes... but the amount parameter should be +/- 32 ... at least that what I used...
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Any creative usage to share?
What a fine thread. Short so far, but oh so useful!
Lately I've found that you can actually do the same using the sequencers in step mode too... so there is another way of doing this, if you need ENV3 for other tasks...
Could you elaborate just a little?
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Could you elaborate just a little?
A guess: if you need a constant modulation source and do not use the sequencer for other things a single step sequence can be used as a constant valued modulation source. It can be handy for a number of use cases. Did try that when I was experimenting with synthesizing Simmons drum sounds on an Evolver.
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A guess: if you need a constant modulation source and do not use the sequencer for other things a single step sequence can be used as a constant valued modulation source.
How is a one-step sequence different from just setting the pan value? I'm fully prepared to believe that it is -- I'm just trying to learn how it works.
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That @StarskyCarr guy who made us very nice videos (P'08 walk-through and P6 vs P'08 comparison) the last few weeks where he mentioned ENV 3 for modulating the OSC 2 FREQ in Hard Sync mode. I tried, pretty cool :)
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When I had a Mopho, I often used the third envelope to modulate Osc Mix parameter, which basically allowed both oscillators to have independent level envelopes. To do this, I would set Osc Mix to a low value (like all the way to Osc 1).
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Any creative usage to share?
What a fine thread. Short so far, but oh so useful!
Lately I've found that you can actually do the same using the sequencers in step mode too... so there is another way of doing this, if you need ENV3 for other tasks...
Could you elaborate just a little?
Actualy I don'r think it's possible anyway... I tried it again and could not do it because the sequencers will not allow for negative modulation which is needed for one of the Layers... so Env3 is still the only way... at least until I've found another way ;D
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A guess: if you need a constant modulation source and do not use the sequencer for other things a single step sequence can be used as a constant valued modulation source.
How is a one-step sequence different from just setting the pan value? I'm fully prepared to believe that it is -- I'm just trying to learn how it works.
To understand this, you have to know, that it's not a Pan setting.... it's the dreaded "Pan Spread" setting... when you use the Pan Spread, the voices jump from left to right, and it's this "hardwired" setting that you just cannot break... so no matter if you use single or layered sounds, if you set some Pan Spread, then the voice will bounce from side to side.
That means, that if you set up a stacked layer, and you set Pan Spread to say; +32 on both layers, then both Layers will bounce in tandem because you cannot set the Pan Spread parameter in negative values... If the Pan Spread setting had the possibility to be set in negative values, you could set one layer to have positive Pan Spread, and the other to have Negative Pan Spread... that would insure that one layer will allways sound at the left, while the other Layer will allways sound at the right... thus, if both layers contain almost identical sounds, you get a HUGE stereo perspective.
The only way to apply negative Pan Spread, is to do it via the Mod Matrix... one layer with possitive amount, and the other Layer with negative amount.
The problem with doing this with the sequencers is that the sequencer's step values cannot be bipolar.
But one thing to note is, that even though Layer A and B is sounding in oposite sides using the Mod. Matrix, the voices STILL BOUNCE! ... Layer A will still bounce from left to right, and so will Layer B... the only thing the Mod-Matrix trick does is to make sure that Layer A and B is bouncing opposite of each other... and not at the same side simultaneously... thus, if the Layer A and B sound is too different, you'll hear the bouncing.
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Here is a demo of some sounds made with doubling the layers, and using Env3 with Pan Spread:
http://razmo.ziphoid.com/DoubleLayer.mp3
The only drawback is still that using this trick halves polyphony as you are using two layers, but it's still extremely useable I'd say... it makes the stereo perspective sound a lot like with the old Roland MKS/Juno-series of analog synths.... extreeeemely wide sound that will hit your face and almost destroy all other sounds in the mix ;D
The demo is only Prophet '08 playing... no external FX.
Note also that the last sounds in the demo are with unison switched on... they are LOUD! ... and contain pretty low frequency as well if you're on a woofer ;)
This trick is also possible with Prophet 12, but the P12 has the ability to set the actual Pan position via the Mod Matrix, and won't bounce unless you specificaly use the Pan Spread setting.
Now do these sounds with your fancy P6... thank you ;D
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... and contain pretty low frequency as well if you're on a woofer ;)
https://twitter.com/dsiSequential/status/679353267697025024 . o O ( ;) )
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... and contain pretty low frequency as well if you're on a woofer ;)
https://twitter.com/dsiSequential/status/679353267697025024 . o O ( ;) )
Well... my speaker cabinetts allmost sound like one of these sometimes, when too many resonances build up ;D
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That means, that if you set up a stacked layer, and you set Pan Spread to say; +32 on both layers, then both Layers will bounce in tandem because you cannot set the Pan Spread parameter in negative values... If the Pan Spread setting had the possibility to be set in negative values, you could set one layer to have positive Pan Spread, and the other to have Negative Pan Spread... that would insure that one layer will allways sound at the left, while the other Layer will allways sound at the right... thus, if both layers contain almost identical sounds, you get a HUGE stereo perspective....
But one thing to note is, that even though Layer A and B is sounding in oposite sides using the Mod. Matrix, the voices STILL BOUNCE! ... Layer A will still bounce from left to right, and so will Layer B... the only thing the Mod-Matrix trick does is to make sure that Layer A and B is bouncing opposite of each other... and not at the same side simultaneously... thus, if the Layer A and B sound is too different, you'll hear the bouncing.
Thank you, Razmo. That explains it perfectly.
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Actualy I don'r think it's possible anyway... I tried it again and could not do it because the sequencers will not allow for negative modulation which is needed for one of the Layers... so Env3 is still the only way... at least until I've found another way ;D
You can set your modulators to negative amounts, won't it work if you just use the 1-step sequence as a source for one of the modulators in one of the layers?
I love that you can use the sequencers as sources for the modulators, since this also allows them to be used as modulation destinations. This is one of my favorite uses for env 3 as well: create a stepping filter with the sequencer and use the envelope to either increase or decrease the steps in time.
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...I use the ENV3 to give a constant value to the PanSpread parameter, but with opposite polarity between Layer A and B...
What do you mean, amount value -127 for one layer and 127 for the other?
Basicaly yes... but the amount parameter should be +/- 32 ... at least that what I used...
Thank you, it seems that 32 is the sweet spot value where the sound is 100% hard panned but anything above or below -32 gives the same result in stacked mode.
Thank you for this tip, exactly why I started this topic, to get nice ideas :)
(If confused, the destination is actually called "Output Pan", not PanSpread)
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Yes... it's called Output Pan, but I used the wording from the Prophet 12 because I find this a better describing because it's not a pan pot... it's a parameter that spreads the pan position differently for each voice... you cannot set a direct Pan position with it :)
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Yes... it's called Output Pan, but I used the wording from the Prophet 12 because I find this a better describing because it's not a pan pot... it's a parameter that spreads the pan position differently for each voice... you cannot set a direct Pan position with it :)
That is really "missing" because you can use an LFO to affect the output pan and then is actually sweeps from right to left. It would be nice with a misc setting where you could set a static value per voice but I guess it's a bit hard to update the printed tips on the case of the P08 with an software update... ;)
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It's a very nice trick Razmo! Thanks! I use the amp envelope to do this, and keep env 3 free for other things. It works fine with short attack settings.
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Here is a demo of some sounds made with doubling the layers, and using Env3 with Pan Spread:
That does sound nice Razmo.
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I often use it with the layer B VCA env amount. So it's just a Automated volume of Layer B. (and sometimes I then put env3 as the destanation of modwheel, so i can dial that in) THese things are super fun when you put a gated seqeuncer/arp on layer B)
I also use it as a glide mode (env3 destination Osc Freq ALL), but It glides with the same value everytime, sometimes from beneath sometimes from above.
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I read in the old forum (cant find it now) about thoughts on using ENV3 as source to affect the attack of another Envelope. Reason being to make the attack even shorter of the affected Envelope, I never got this to work much though.
Anyone with deeper experiance about this?
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I read in the old forum (cant find it now) about thoughts on using ENV3 as source to affect the attack of another Envelope. Reason being to make the attack even shorter of the affected Envelope, I never got this to work much though.
Are you thinking of this discussion? http://dsiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=631