The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet => Prophet '08 => Topic started by: varun213 on February 24, 2016, 06:21:34 PM
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I've been trying to learn the P8, even looked at a few videos from Starsky carr, but the only thing I can come up with is a Saw tooth bassline with a few tweaks to the soundshape. How can I get into the PAD or bell synth type sounds from the P8?
I really need help getting more out of this synth. I start with a blank program 128 and just try to tweak the shape as much as I can but I dont get much out of it musically. I think my approach to analog synthesis may be wrong.
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A synthesizer is a very logical instrument. The problem is, starting with factory presets and tweaking them a bit will not give you a systematic knowledge of synthesis. Starting with that program 128 really is the right way to go. I would suggest you carefully go through the manual and experiment with each parameter after you've learned its purpose.
For pads, first set the oscillators. To keep it simple, use two sawtooths detuned from each other by 4-10 digits. Then set the filter frequency to a darker timbre. In the Amplifier (VCA), set the attack to about 60, the release to about 70, and the sustain to 127 (full). Use an LFO to add some vibrato. If you like, use a second LFO to slowly and slightly sweep the filter, possibly adding some resonance. This would be the basics of a pad on any synthesizer, but the variations are nearly endless, according to your needs and wants.
I don't know how experienced you are with synthesis, so please don't be offended by my very basic suggestions. For certain, it takes time and effort to learn synthesis, but it's worth the effort. Read and experiment - that's the recipe.
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Take the time to experiment. Tested various features. learn what each button does. There is no trick. You're not forced to start from scratch. you can start with a sound that looks like what you want and change it. Take your time. More you'll experiment more you'll master the P8.
Have fun
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Take the time to experiment. Tested various features. learn what each button does. There is no trick. You're not forced to start from scratch. you can start with a sound that looks like what you want and change it. Take your time. More you'll experiment more you'll master the P8.
Have fun
thanks man, ill go with that. I am learning slowly day by day. So I definitely get what you're saying
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A synthesizer is a very logical instrument. The problem is, starting with factory presets and tweaking them a bit will not give you a systematic knowledge of synthesis. Starting with that program 128 really is the right way to go. I would suggest you carefully go through the manual and experiment with each parameter after you've learned its purpose.
For pads, first set the oscillators. To keep it simple, use two sawtooths detuned from each other by 4-10 digits. Then set the filter frequency to a darker timbre. In the Amplifier (VCA), set the attack to about 60, the release to about 70, and the sustain to 127 (full). Use an LFO to add some vibrato. If you like, use a second LFO to slowly and slightly sweep the filter, possibly adding some resonance. This would be the basics of a pad on any synthesizer, but the variations are nearly endless, according to your needs and wants.
I don't know how experienced you are with synthesis, so please don't be offended by my very basic suggestions. For certain, it takes time and effort to learn synthesis, but it's worth the effort. Read and experiment - that's the recipe.
no offense take at all, I appreciate that basic description because I am a newb still lol. I think its mostly navigating through the controls and options and connecting them together.
99% of my synthesizer experience comes from Spectrasonics Omnisphere VST. There I usually starts with a Sine or Saw and add unison, FM, Wave shaper, filters, than add reverbs/flangers and all that. Follow it like a recipe almost because the user interface is easy to get into.
Now i am trying to expand to a hardware synth for the fist time and the P8 is just confusing right now, but ill keep chipping away at it.
thanks again.
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A component which is very important to master is the envelope of the amplitude and of the filter. the interaction between the two can be very interesting to be developed.
Obviously the blocks LFO is a big investment that can pay big dividends.
know the qualities of your synth . Knowing in which it excels
Give yourself a year. I understand that it may seem trivial. But it's really the best thing you have to do if you want to master your instrument.
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If you are new to synthesis, you need to understand what all the different parts of a synthsizer does. OSC->Filter->VCA and then get further understanding for Envelopes and LFOs. The only way investing time and trial and error and you'll get there.
I made a Bell:ish sound when I was trying to get the P'08 to sound FM-style last fall. Unfortunately no luck with true FM but Audio Mod got me into the bells area at least. I found notes on a patch I made. It's not properly tuned but you get the idea I hope.
OSC 1: Triangle, C#5, -44 fine Freq
OSC 2: Triangle, G#4, 0 fine freq
OSC MIX: 127
Audio Mod: 127
LPF: 18
Resonance: 0 (in 4-pole keep it under 30, above that it starts to sound formant voicy stuff)
No other mods or LFOs involved really (although there might be destinations for them mapped)
I posted the sysex-file in the older forum:http://dsiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2920&p=64081&hilit=audio+mod#p64081
Hope it helps!
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If you are new to synthesis, you need to understand what all the different parts of a synthsizer does. OSC->Filter->VCA and then get further understanding for Envelopes and LFOs. The only way investing time and trial and error and you'll get there.
I made a Bell:ish sound when I was trying to get the P'08 to sound FM-style last fall. Unfortunately no luck with true FM but Audio Mod got me into the bells area at least. I found notes on a patch I made. It's not properly tuned but you get the idea I hope.
OSC 1: Triangle, C#5, -44 fine Freq
OSC 2: Triangle, G#4, 0 fine freq
OSC MIX: 127
Audio Mod: 127
LPF: 18
Resonance: 0 (in 4-pole keep it under 30, above that it starts to sound formant voicy stuff)
No other mods or LFOs involved really (although there might be destinations for them mapped)
I posted the sysex-file in the older forum:http://dsiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2920&p=64081&hilit=audio+mod#p64081
Hope it helps!
thanks man, im going to try that out. I need to probably spend more time reading the manual.
have you ever used Omnisphere by Spectrasonics? its a Virtual synthesizer for DAW use, its pretty powerful and I got alot of my experience from synthesizing on that VST.
With the p08 I cant seem to get any of the knobs to respond to my Basic 128 patch?? I use the misc knobs to assign parameters or use the destination knob in the evelope but nothing ever happens lol. I would then go to the VCA section and try to increase the delay of the basic saw tooth but still the most I get is just subtle differences.
is the P8 known to have a learning curve compared to other synths? I'm probably just a newb still i guess. wish it was easy like OMNISPHERE is lol.
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Do you mean that when you turn the parameters absolutely nothing happens?
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With the p08 I cant seem to get any of the knobs to respond to my Basic 128 patch?? I use the misc knobs to assign parameters or use the destination knob in the evelope but nothing ever happens lol. I would then go to the VCA section and try to increase the delay of the basic saw tooth but still the most I get is just subtle differences.
is the P8 known to have a learning curve compared to other synths? I'm probably just a newb still i guess. wish it was easy like OMNISPHERE is lol.
I, as Sacred Synthesis, am slighty confused if your P08 is broken or if you are just trying the wrong knobs.
Omnisphere is in a way similar when it comes to the main synthesism but also much more complicated and "complete" with more processing and advanced stuff like fm, ringmod and effects. I'd say the Prophet is easier when it comes to having direct knob access to traditional subtractive synthesism. I mean, its not very hard, 2 osc, a lowpass filter and a vca. Thats it. There are no effects, no fm, no ringmod.
Now, with that said... if you don't get what knob to turn to make a sound have a slower attack, or what you need to do to add a permanent slow vibrato to a noicier sound then you need to understand the basics of subtractive synthesism. I'm sure Omnisphere gives more direct gratification when you select a between very different samples wave shapes. So it's for sure different instruments.
If you are after drastic effects, the P08 will dissapoint you compared to Omnesphere, its just NOT a good allround EDM-synth with extreme effects.
That delay knob on the vca section, if you for example already have a slow attack, the delay will only appear to make it slower, not drastic change. Its not a"Delay FX" if you thought that. Its the time setting before the attack of the VCA envelope will start.
The P08 doesn't have hundreds of wave shapes, it has got triangle, saw and pulse width, thats it.
My suggestion:
1. While holding down the Program button, press the Yes-button. You will then get a basic saw patch.
2. Turn the Cut off filter knob to sweep the filter, that should make a difference to the sound, darker or brighter.
3. Then start changing the OSC 1 shape to explore those shapes, the pulse width will be the most "changing" sound while turning the knob. If you turn it all the way to the left it will turn Off and you have disabled the OSC1. Set it back to a Saw.
4. Try changing the attack and the realease of the envelope in the vca section. You should hear slower attacks and longer realeses.
If that works for you, then nothing is broken, knobs work. You have just operated the basic Osc-> Filter -> VCA without any modulation. Congrats!
If that works and you feel "meh, that's it?!" Then I don't know what to tell you. The Prophet 08 is not Omnisphere. Not even the Prophet 12 is Omnisphere. You will have to add distortion, flanger and other effects outside of the P08. Most likely in your DAW with software effect plugins.
Can the prophet sound different than that basic saw patch? Absolutely! Digging into the lfo, the modulation and sequenser section you will start to understand the depth of the Prophet 08. But you need to grasp subtractive synthesism before you understand what types of sounds it can do.
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If you don't know your way around basic synthesis, then it would be possible to turn many knobs on the factory programs and hear no changes to the sound. While holding a note, you could turn the Attack parameter all day long and notice no changes. So it's hard to understand exactly what you're hearing. Inetzel's 1 and 2 suggestions should clear things up.
I was wondering if the Global settings might be the problem, something like, "Local Control Off". The Global settings can be returned to the factory settings by holding the Global button and at the same time pressing the LFO 3 button. I would try that.
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Good thinking Sacred Synthesis!
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With the p08 I cant seem to get any of the knobs to respond to my Basic 128 patch?? I use the misc knobs to assign parameters or use the destination knob in the evelope but nothing ever happens lol. I would then go to the VCA section and try to increase the delay of the basic saw tooth but still the most I get is just subtle differences.
is the P8 known to have a learning curve compared to other synths? I'm probably just a newb still i guess. wish it was easy like OMNISPHERE is lol.
I, as Sacred Synthesis, am slighty confused if your P08 is broken or if you are just trying the wrong knobs.
Omnisphere is in a way similar when it comes to the main synthesism but also much more complicated and "complete" with more processing and advanced stuff like fm, ringmod and effects. I'd say the Prophet is easier when it comes to having direct knob access to traditional subtractive synthesism. I mean, its not very hard, 2 osc, a lowpass filter and a vca. Thats it. There are no effects, no fm, no ringmod.
Now, with that said... if you don't get what knob to turn to make a sound have a slower attack, or what you need to do to add a permanent slow vibrato to a noicier sound then you need to understand the basics of subtractive synthesism. I'm sure Omnisphere gives more direct gratification when you select a between very different samples wave shapes. So it's for sure different instruments.
If you are after drastic effects, the P08 will dissapoint you compared to Omnesphere, its just NOT a good allround EDM-synth with extreme effects.
That delay knob on the vca section, if you for example already have a slow attack, the delay will only appear to make it slower, not drastic change. Its not a"Delay FX" if you thought that. Its the time setting before the attack of the VCA envelope will start.
The P08 doesn't have hundreds of wave shapes, it has got triangle, saw and pulse width, thats it.
My suggestion:
1. While holding down the Program button, press the Yes-button. You will then get a basic saw patch.
2. Turn the Cut off filter knob to sweep the filter, that should make a difference to the sound, darker or brighter.
3. Then start changing the OSC 1 shape to explore those shapes, the pulse width will be the most "changing" sound while turning the knob. If you turn it all the way to the left it will turn Off and you have disabled the OSC1. Set it back to a Saw.
4. Try changing the attack and the realease of the envelope in the vca section. You should hear slower attacks and longer realeses.
If that works for you, then nothing is broken, knobs work. You have just operated the basic Osc-> Filter -> VCA without any modulation. Congrats!
If that works and you feel "meh, that's it?!" Then I don't know what to tell you. The Prophet 08 is not Omnisphere. Not even the Prophet 12 is Omnisphere. You will have to add distortion, flanger and other effects outside of the P08. Most likely in your DAW with software effect plugins.
Can the prophet sound different than that basic saw patch? Absolutely! Digging into the lfo, the modulation and sequenser section you will start to understand the depth of the Prophet 08. But you need to grasp subtractive synthesism before you understand what types of sounds it can do.
Whenever I would choose basic patch it would be by scrolling with the knob till i got to patch 128 lol. By pressing global+yes gave it a rich basic sound that I already started playing with. I went to osc 1 and tweaked it a bit but definitely responsive! the VCA section was really responsive as well with the decay and release features. I'm already starting to experiment now. My only question now is that I still don't get is the
"Envelope 3" section what are its main functions compared to VCA? and how can I use that more?
I understand your explanation on how its not an omnisphere, but it always helps when somebody with experience can point out creative and powerful applications of a synthesizer. Could you give me some strong points that the p8 has? Is it known for any sound it can produce? (basslines, mid range synths or bells, leads?)
Or something else? I ask because I want to focus on the strong points the p8 has and over time get really into the core of it. I love the basic patch though! jeez its so nice lol
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Envelope 3 does not have a set destination or purpose. It is there if you need a different envelope shape to control a destination of your choosing. For example, you could use it to fade in noise or filter resonance. While you are learning the Prophet'08 I would ignore Envelope 3. If you are figuring out how existing sounds are made then it might be worth looking at Envelope 3's destination, just to check if it is being used. 90% of the sounds I make do not use Envelope 3. :)
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One of the most common uses for Envelope 3 is delayed vibrato. Set the rate in one of the LFO (without adding any amount) and then set Envelope 3 to effect that LFO's amount. By slowing down the Attack, the vibrato will gradually enter at the same speed. Then, using the other parameters, you can cause the vibrato to fade away while you're holding a note, or have it stop immediately when you release a note, etc.
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Don't worry about env3, there's a whole thread on that one in this forum when you are ready :)
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As for the sounds the Prophet 08 can make; there's a very long thread with links to different pieces that people have made. Read that :)
But since you want a fast answer, I made a little synthpop multitrack demo where every single sound comes from the Prophet 08, even drums. https://soundcloud.com/lnetzel/dsi-prophet-08-multi-track-demo. BTW I was completely impressed by the snare I managed to get.
My thoughts on what the best thing to use the Prophet 08 for is probably in that track. Electronic music. But then you also have Sacred Synthesis in this forum who has mastered pads and strings to a ninja-level and use if for an organic synth take on classical music. It's just a very useful 8-voice machine.
The only thing it can't do well at all is Metallic FM-type of sounds. You can get okay bell-attack sounds but then the tracking is off and it's just hard to use it for more than that "spooky dissonant" stuff I show in my demo. I think it also lacks that distinct aggressive tone for synth-bass used in old school EBM (like DAF and Nitzer Ebb).
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As for the sounds the Prophet 08 can make; there's a very long thread with links to different pieces that people have made. Read that :)
But since you want a fast answer, I made a little synthpop multitrack demo where every single sound comes from the Prophet 08, even drums. https://soundcloud.com/lnetzel/dsi-prophet-08-multi-track-demo. BTW I was completely impressed by the snare I managed to get.
My thoughts on what the best thing to use the Prophet 08 for is probably in that track. Electronic music. But then you also have Sacred Synthesis in this forum who has mastered pads and strings to a ninja-level and use if for an organic synth take on classical music. It's just a very useful 8-voice machine.
The only thing it can't do well at all is Metallic FM-type of sounds. You can get okay bell-attack sounds but then the tracking is off and it's just hard to use it for more than that "spooky dissonant" stuff I show in my demo. I think it also lacks that distinct aggressive tone for synth-bass used in old school EBM (like DAF and Nitzer Ebb).
i love that snare you made! really nice man. :) Are those bell sounds connected to the spooky dissonant sound or are those two difference sounds? Bell chimes at the end of the track are sick
The kick is really sick too. I point these sounds out because I couldn't imagine how you would create those. I love all the sounds in that track though.
I will keep experimenting and wait til i get into the env 3 section then. Thanks for your guys help.
From here I can experiment and find my way to creating sounds now.
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Excellent programming, Inetzel. Very impressive.
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i love that snare you made! really nice man. :) Are those bell sounds connected to the spooky dissonant sound or are those two difference sounds? Bell chimes at the end of the track are sick
Actually snare sounds are a bit of a mystery to me. You need a good source sound. and a good reverb. You can't get a good snare sound without both (IMO). So the reverb I used helps getting that "sound" a lot. On the other hand, the source sound from the P08 has the ingredients for that reverb to really make it shine, such a strange world, that snare world.
The kick is pretty simple, just a filter envelope in 4-pole mode and pretty closed filter.
The bells and spooky sounds are different sounds. The bell-sound is the "FM Bell" I mentioned earlier in this thread.
Excellent programming, Inetzel. Very impressive.
Thank you!
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i love that snare you made! really nice man. :) Are those bell sounds connected to the spooky dissonant sound or are those two difference sounds? Bell chimes at the end of the track are sick
Actually snare sounds are a bit of a mystery to me. You need a good source sound. and a good reverb. You can't get a good snare sound without both (IMO). So the reverb I used helps getting that "sound" a lot. On the other hand, the source sound from the P08 has the ingredients for that reverb to really make it shine, such a strange world, that snare world.
The kick is pretty simple, just a filter envelope in 4-pole mode and pretty closed filter.
The bells and spooky sounds are different sounds. The bell-sound is the "FM Bell" I mentioned earlier in this thread.
Excellent programming, Inetzel. Very impressive.
Thank you!
ok well I started out with a basic patch and messed around with a few knobs in the VCA section. From there I go to Osc 1 and 2 and the Low pass filter and mess with a few knobs there till i get an interesting sound but the issue now is I dont know where to go from here and after going through those three sections I still cant transform my basic sawtooth i had intially except for its evelope really.
I'm really interested in making not exactly like MOOG bass (i should just get a moog bass at that point) but basslines of that kinda style. I can achieve a nice synth basline but nothing too interesting like the p8 factory preset synth basses sound like. Could you throw out any tips on how to get more creative with that?
As far as LFO/Modulation section I would keep that to the last step.
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I don't need bass sounds as much, but I can say that the Tetra has a lot of different basses (which do sound slightly better because of the sub-octave generator). One thing that has saved me a lot of time in learning programming and getting the sounds that I like is downloading other sounds for the '08. I found this to be much easier with the aid of a Tetra (which are getting pretty cheap on eBay)... but you can download straight to the Prophet too. Once you have several that you like, of course you can go back and do some reverse engineering.
http://www.davesmithinstruments.com/prophet-08-factory-sounds/
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... but the issue now is I dont know where to go from here and after going through those three sections I still cant transform my basic sawtooth i had intially except for its evelope really.
I'm really interested in making not exactly like MOOG bass (i should just get a moog bass at that point) but basslines of that kinda style. I can achieve a nice synth basline but nothing too interesting like the p8 factory preset synth basses sound like. Could you throw out any tips on how to get more creative with that?
As far as LFO/Modulation section I would keep that to the last step.
Never tried copying a moog sound. But if you want something more than a sawtooth with a bit of Envelope on the filter, which is what you seem to have figured out now (good boy!) you need to get deeper.
Idea 1: Try the unison button.., but protect your ears/speakers.
Idea 2: If you are using both OSCs, definately try tuning OSC1 done a bit on the fine tune and the OSC 2up a bit. That makes it more "fat". (I have never through the slop-value is enough for this)
Idea 3: You could set the OSCs to be a pulse width. Then set LFO 1 to be a triangle, pretty slow rate, and the destination to be one or both of the OSCs pulse width. That gives a sweeping sound of the tone but if you go to much it gets "thin". Play around. Using two LFOs, one for each osc, with different rates will be better probably. You will enter chip-tune-territory.
Idea 4: Use 4-pole filter with a bit of resonance (not to much) instead of the 2-pole. I have found to get most low end from eitehr using 2-pole with Resonance set to 0. OR 4-pole with a higher but not too high value. stay on the lower half. When you go high you get screamy/zappy sounds, away from anything bass:ish.
Idea 5: Add a tiny bit of noise.
Idea 6: Use an LFO with random shape and set the destination to the OSC FREQ, high rate and play around with the amount. It will add some dirtyness. Might only wanna do that on ONE of the OSCs though, if you do both you will probably lose some bass-characteristics and more into weird stuff.
Idea 7: Set one OSC to be a Square wave (Pulse width 50) and tune it down an octave to have it act as a sub osc (like Jason with the tetra mentioned). A better version of this is to make a sound you like on Layer A, then stack with Layer B and have Layer B be that "Sub OSC".
Now when you are more familiar with the prophet 08, reverse-engineer a preset-patch you like. Check what modulation and LFO destinations they have and remove them to see what happens.
Play around, have fun, if it doesn't turn out to be a moogy bass sound, so what. If it sounds cool it will be useful and you probably learnt something along the way :)
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Strange Quark Starr made an awesome tutorial for the Prophet 08, not bass, but you will probably learn something, it's starts from Basic Patch as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kohXSEdVU5Y
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I would suggest a book-ish approach as well. Yes, experiment away, but also learn about the fundamentals of synthesis so that, in turning a parameter, you know what to expect. Take the guessing out of designing sounds. Here are two excellent books that will give you a good general knowledge of synthesis:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0240520726?keywords=Synthesizer&qid=1458143686&ref_=sr_1_9&s=books&sr=1-9
http://www.amazon.com/Power-Tools-Synthesizer-Programming-Reference/dp/0879307730/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1458143728&sr=1-30