The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Other Hardware/Software => Topic started by: Sacred Synthesis on August 30, 2016, 09:33:37 PM
-
I have always been impressed with the Prophet VS. Outside of the DSI realm, it's definitely one of my favorite instruments. It was Dave Smith's warm up for the Poly Evolver. Or is the VS better than the PEK?
There's a VS for sale in my area for $2,700, excellent condition. Golly, it's tempting!
Here's a mostly musical demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGHx7R_bFeQ
-
That's a nice demo. I wouldn't or couldn't say whether it's better or worse than the PEK. It's pretty much its own thing, as there's no vector synthesis option (although it's strictly speaking not really a form of synthesis) on the Evolver. The only thing these types of instruments share is or are the waveforms of the digital oscillators.
To me it's as unique as all the relatively early hybrids like the PPG for example. I guess when I talk about wishing for a sort of updated Wavestation by DSI, I really have the sound quality of the VS in mind, which was superior in that regard due to its analog filter and the focus on truly artificial sounds instead of the late Wavestation's integration of more natural ROMpler sounds like pianos for example. The latter's strong point was wave sequencing instead. I definitely wouldn't say no to a re-envisioned version of it, the VS plus the WS's strong points that is.
$2,700 for a VS in good condition is a good deal though. Maybe not objectively, but compared to the usual prices. If it's not too far away you should just check it out in person.
Here's another recent demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qRzCXxbUDI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qRzCXxbUDI)
-
That's a good demo, too. There are many.
The sound of the VS is so similar to that of the PEK when its waveshapes are used statically. That's probably why I like it so much. All the PEK needs is a joystick.
It seems to me there's another instrument lurking out there yet to be made - a sort of VS/PEK/PPG/Wavestation 8-voice synth - and Dave's the man for it. I'd love this sort of a digital instrument with mystique to it. Oh, and it has to be blue!
-
I'm still hoping the next synth from DSI is a VS remake. I'd get that one.
-
Absolutely. The VS stands as such a unique instrument. I'd like to see DSI approach it with something having a similarly generous number and selection of digital waveshapes. I don't think the Prophet 12 at all fills the VS vacuum. I mean, if your going to go digital, then really go digital. Then again, I'd be perfectly happy with a new and improved Poly Evolver, but Dave doesn't do such things.
-
The Prophet VS definitely has that glassy 80s texture to it, though, in spite of having Curtis filters (though I firmly believe that the MSR/DSI Curtis-on-a-chip sounds miles better, possibly due to better signal-to-noise within the audio path of the chip itself). By contrast, I don't hear this from SSM-based synths/samplers from the same period (e.g., E-mu Emax I).
FWIW, the same has been said regarding the PPG Wave's change from SSM to Curtis filter ICs.
Compared to the Prophet-12 (4x digital oscs) and the (Poly) Evolver (2x analog + 2x digital oscs), both of which use the MSR/DSI IC design, I'm not sure it holds up as well–but others may disagree.
-
This is such a superb instrument. I just love these sounds. Surely there's sonic territory here for DSI to revisit in a future synthesizer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs8jAcNVDeQ
-
Then again, I'd be perfectly happy with a new and improved Poly Evolver, but Dave doesn't do such things.
Ha! That was a good one.
-
Then again, I'd be perfectly happy with a new and improved Poly Evolver, but Dave doesn't do such things.
Ha! That was a good one.
He tricked us with the Rev2!
-
Then again, I'd be perfectly happy with a new and improved Poly Evolver, but Dave doesn't do such things.
Ha! That was a good one.
He tricked us with the Rev2!
And the P6... and the Pro 2....
-
Then again, I'd be perfectly happy with a new and improved Poly Evolver, but Dave doesn't do such things.
Ha! That was a good one.
He tricked us with the Rev2!
And the P6... and the Pro 2....
I have to admit, you're right on all of those. Well, I'm gonna sit at home and wait for my Poly Evolver Keyboard Mk II.
-
Then again, I'd be perfectly happy with a new and improved Poly Evolver, but Dave doesn't do such things.
Ha! That was a good one.
He tricked us with the Rev2!
And the P6... and the Pro 2....
I have to admit, you're right on all of those. Well, I'm gonna sit at home and wait for my Poly Evolver Keyboard Mk II.
At least the odds are in your favor.
-
I think Dave's instruments have always surpassed other company's that are currently on the market. For whatever reason other companies thus far haven't been able to really compete with DSI. Either their keybeds are too small, they don't have as many voices, the user interface is poor, or they are drastically more expensive. I think DSI has always been about standing out.
This is why at NAMM I think it would be foolish to release another analog polysynth. Korg is scheduled to do a fullsized one. I don't want to see DSI backtrack. The only thing left really in the analog realm is multitimbrality and I can't see them doing that...yet.
But I think this NAMM should be the year DSI does a swerve and does a new hybrid or digital synth with analog filters. I don't see them doing a sampler but I can see them doing a new digital based synth. I know Dave says the Prophet 12 IS the digital synth...but there's a lot of room for improvements: VS waves, more effects and maybe even throw some samples in there.
Analog has made a resurgence and I don't want to see DSI start to dwindle (like Moog). They are the measuring stick to all else in the synth realm so I'd like to see them keep moving forward.
-
This request has become the new drumbeat around here. Maybe it'll have an impact. All I can say is that I'm all for it and have been for years. But considering all the indications, I wouldn't expect to see it this NAMM.
I would agree with the view that the Prophet 12 is not that digital instrument. Not by a long shot. Having it beside my Poly Evolver Keyboard, the P12 immediately came across as a glorified stand-in for the Prophet '08, with the PEK shining as the true digital instrument.
-
This request has become the new drumbeat around here. Maybe it'll have an impact.
As far as I can tell, there are currently three very popular wishes for upcoming DSI instruments across all kinds of synth forums. One is indeed a revisited Prophet VS. The others are either an Evolver MKII or a Sampler that follows the tradtion of the Prophet 2000.
-
The drumbeat is for some form of a digital or a digital hybrid instrument. I've seen the expression "Poly Evolver Keyboard Mk II" more times than I can count. In fact, I've been seeing it for years (and not just in my own posts!).
One of the outstanding characteristics of the PEK is its particular set of digital wave shapes. Not just any wave shapes, but those in particular. If the VS/Evolver wave shapes could be cleaned up of their rather extreme digital aliasing, we'd already be partway to a new instrument. Then include the joystick for that VS morphing sound, and you've got the other distinctive element. Finally, it has to be blue!
-
One of the outstanding characteristics of the PEK is its particular set of digital wave shapes. Not just any wave shapes, but those in particular. If the VS/Evolver wave shapes could be cleaned up of their rather extreme digital aliasing, we'd already be partway to a new instrument.
This might be an iffy topic, as there is something now that is considered vintage digital, where aliasing is perceived not only as charming, but also as musical. It's like with all those old samplers that processed sounds in 8 or 12 bit. That sort of resulted in a very unique sound, be it on PPGs, the Fairlight, the LinnDrum, or the VS. Many 002 users also make use of the DeRes parameter to get that old grittiness back. So I think a good and realistic compromise would be to add a bit reduction parameter, maybe one that behaves a little more musical or predictable than the bitcrusher on the actual Evolver or P12/P2. One could for example implement a feature that allows you to choose between 24, 16, 12, and 8 bit modes. It would basically be the equivalent to the slop parameter in analog synths by providing vintage sample rates for digital oscillators.
-
Yes, I realize that, and I was about to add it to my post. I've developed an uncharacteristic liking for an amount of that aliasing, too. The problem is, it's so severe that many of the wave shapes are unusable, except for limited effects. So, I think your idea for bit reduction is an excellent and a necessary one.
-
By the way, the Prophet VS Youtube videos are quite popular, with most of them having several thousands of views, or more. The VS-PEK interest is palpable.
-
Yeah, it can definitely get nasty in the higher registers, where it can end up becoming unusable for certain purposes.
I mostly pointed this out because what many desire about the VS or PPG sound is exactly that sound, not necessarily a technically improved one that probably a not inconsiderable number of users would end up describing as too clinical. It's a bit like that with the Minimoog as well, which contained an error in the filter circuit that eventually ended up producing that particularly desired sound.
Giving the user the option to choose between clearly targeted bit modes instead of a continuous bitcrusher would make sound design easier for those who'd like to go for that vintage glitch.
What would also be exciting is to try out a vaster array of digital waveforms with different filter types, i.e. not only the Curtis filter, but also the SSM-based filter type of the Prophet-6 and the Pro 2, or the state variable filter design of either the Pro 2 or the OB-6. Tom Oberheim is said to have had plans for a hybrid in the 1980s, but he stepped back due to the still persisting aliasing issues. So an enhanced filter topography could emulate what it could have been like.
-
By the way, the Prophet VS Youtube videos are quite popular, with most of them having several thousands of views, or more. The VS-PEK interest is palpable.
The VS is extremely popular by now, just as much as there's a growing number of people asking for a rather performance oriented sampler that's build more in the tradition of the Emulators, Ensoniqs or the Prophet 2000 for example.
-
If the VS/Evolver wave shapes could be cleaned up of their rather extreme digital aliasing, we'd already be partway to a new instrument.
Evolver/VS experience: "That is way too much aliasing!"
So Prophet 12 and Pro 2 was made to make the digital oscillators work over a larger range of notes.
Prophet 12 experience: "That sounds way too thin and sterile!"
Sad fact is that cracking that oscillator nut is very very hard.
-
If the VS/Evolver wave shapes could be cleaned up of their rather extreme digital aliasing, we'd already be partway to a new instrument.
Evolver/VS experience: "That is way too much aliasing!"
So Prophet 12 and Pro 2 was made to make the digital oscillators work over a larger range of notes.
Prophet 12 experience: "That sounds way too thin and sterile!"
Sad fact is that cracking that oscillator nut is very very hard.
I think that comes down really to people not understanding that imperfections make the instruments perfect. Classic digital synthesis (VS, FM, low bit sampling) is only starting to become the new analog. Before the comments on virtual analog or digital synths were they weren’t warm and the oscillators were too perfect...now we have VCO synths with the ability to drastically detune them via a “Slop” dial. Classic Vector Synthesis, Wavetables, FM are only starting to get in style again because the analog market has been more than catered to..so we want something else. I think perhaps it’s more a case of allowing the user to dial in how “problematic” they want the machine to be...give aliasing it’s own “Slop” dial as it were.
-
If the VS/Evolver wave shapes could be cleaned up of their rather extreme digital aliasing, we'd already be partway to a new instrument.
Evolver/VS experience: "That is way too much aliasing!"
So Prophet 12 and Pro 2 was made to make the digital oscillators work over a larger range of notes.
Prophet 12 experience: "That sounds way too thin and sterile!"
Sad fact is that cracking that oscillator nut is very very hard.
Varispeed sample rate cracks that nut on the meridians, but its implementation requires a fair number of parts to make it functional.
-
If the VS/Evolver wave shapes could be cleaned up of their rather extreme digital aliasing, we'd already be partway to a new instrument.
Evolver/VS experience: "That is way too much aliasing!"
So Prophet 12 and Pro 2 was made to make the digital oscillators work over a larger range of notes.
Prophet 12 experience: "That sounds way too thin and sterile!"
Sad fact is that cracking that oscillator nut is very very hard.
If the nature of the Prophet VS-Poly Evolver digital waveshapes inescapably entails aliasing, then so be it. If they can be cleaned up a bit, then all the better. Either way, they are usable. These, coupled with a pair of digitally controlled analog oscillators having subs and waveshape modulation, together with instrument-wide bi-timbrality, eight voices, a joystick, and onboard effects, would breathe new life into the PEK. But the key really is those specific digital wave shapes. They are the VS-PEK character that people recognize and love; they are its heritage and would keep a PEK Mk II from being just another generic digital synth. Certainly these waveshapes could be added to, but they must be included.
-
If the VS/Evolver wave shapes could be cleaned up of their rather extreme digital aliasing, we'd already be partway to a new instrument.
Evolver/VS experience: "That is way too much aliasing!"
So Prophet 12 and Pro 2 was made to make the digital oscillators work over a larger range of notes.
Prophet 12 experience: "That sounds way too thin and sterile!"
Sad fact is that cracking that oscillator nut is very very hard.
If the nature of the Prophet VS-Poly Evolver digital waveshapes inescapably entails aliasing, then so be it. If they can be cleaned up a bit, then all the better. Either way, they are usable. These, coupled with a pair of digitally controlled analog oscillators having subs and waveshape modulation, together with instrument-wide bi-timbrality, eight voices, a joystick, and onboard effects, would breathe new life into the PEK. But the key really is those specific digital wave shapes. They are the VS-PEK character that people recognize and love; they are its heritage and would keep a PEK Mk II from being just another generic digital synth. Certainly these waveshapes could be added to, but they must be included.
I would say 10 voices would suffice.
-
I think that comes down really to people not understanding that imperfections make the instruments perfect. Classic digital synthesis (VS, FM, low bit sampling) is only starting to become the new analog. [...] I think perhaps it’s more a case of allowing the user to dial in how “problematic” they want the machine to be...give aliasing it’s own “Slop” dial as it were.
Spot on to all of your post, LoboLives! Fun thing is that what good sounding analog and digital sound synthesis have in common is the imperfections. Now, mastering the control of these imperfections and making them sound alive is very difficult to obtain.
-
Varispeed sample rate cracks that nut on the meridians, but its implementation requires a fair number of parts to make it functional.
Can you describe such an implementation? Any idea of how the PPG machines implemented their oscillators? Any idea of the Prophet VS oscillators were free running or always in sync?
-
These, coupled with a pair of digitally controlled analog oscillators having subs and waveshape modulation, together with instrument-wide bi-timbrality, eight voices, a joystick, and onboard effects, would breathe new life into the PEK.
I much prefer having both analog and digital oscillators in the same voice. It solves a problem as far as I can see namely that the modern machines usually have less bass contents and sound more sterile than the vintage machines. Plus it gives the instrument a far wider sonic span.
-
Can you describe such an implementation? Any idea of how the PPG machines implemented their oscillators? Any idea of the Prophet VS oscillators were free running or always in sync?
You'll find the most technological information about the PPG on Paul Maddox' PPG Webpages: http://www.ppg.synth.net/wave22/
I strongly assume that the playback of the waveforms on the VS just happened the way it does on the Evolver: 12-bit sample playback triggered by the keyboard or another modulation source.
Interestingly enough, the development of the VS was triggered by the PPG Wave. Chris Meyer, one of the product designers among Josh Jeffe, obtained one and took a look inside. He eventually came up with the cross-fading idea for which Josh Jeffe suggested the joystick as a controller.
Also interesting: The whole Arpeggiator Scratchpad idea that is found in the Prophet 12 and that allows you to insert rests, notes, and so on, stems from the VS's arpeggiator functionality.
As far as architecture and components go, I've attached an overview of the chipset from The Prophet from Silicon Valley below.
-
I would say 10 voices would suffice.
That would be even better, but we may be imagining already a fairly expensive instrument.
-
I would say 10 voices would suffice.
That would be even better, but we may be imagining already a fairly expensive instrument.
I don’t think two more voices will bump the cost up astronomically especially if it’s essentially a primarily digital synth.
-
I don't think we're talking about an exclusively digital instrument, but a hybrid related to the Poly Evolver Keyboard. That seems to be the direction we've been headed.
-
I would say 10 voices would suffice.
That would be even better, but we may be imagining already a fairly expensive instrument.
I don’t think two more voices will bump the cost up astronomically especially if it’s essentially a primarily digital synth.
Well, you'd need an extra VCA and filter for each additional voice. I guess there was a reason why the PEK only had 4 voices in total. It's also not a matter of single components costing you just a couple of cents per piece. Once you add distribution and other factors to that, costs do easily multiply.
With every additional feature not only costs increase, but also the challenges of designing an ergonomic interface that's easy to understand and how data is processed and managed by means of the firmware.
-
For all VS enthusiasts:
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/sequential-s-prophet-vs/1617
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/prophecy-fulfilled/1693
-
Those are excellent articles, Paul. Thanks for posting them. At first, I thought they were an announcement from DSI about a new VS revision! Ah well....maybe at NAMM 2020.
The descriptions sound very much like they're about a DSI synthesizer. I felt like I was reading an Evolver manual. Dave certainly has maintained a tradition all these decades.
-
I wonder....with the “moving things around” quote from Dave....maybe the menu and cursor will be moved over to the right or left hand side of the keyboard sort of like how it was to the side of the Tempest?
-
I wonder....with the “moving things around” quote from Dave....maybe the menu and cursor will be moved over to the right or left hand side of the keyboard sort of like how it was to the side of the Tempest?
Or they could be moving analog OSCs out, and moving digital wavetables in...
:)
-
Those are excellent articles, Paul. Thanks for posting them. At first, I thought they were an announcement from DSI about a new VS revision! Ah well....maybe at NAMM 2020.
The descriptions sound very much like they're about a DSI synthesizer. I felt like I was reading an Evolver manual. Dave certainly has maintained a tradition all these decades.
You're welcome. It's always funny to read these reviews from a historical perspective, particularly from a time before the D-50 and eventually the M1 hit the streets.
In the summer, Ken Flux Pierce did an interesting interview with Chris Meyer, which sheds some more light on the VS development and also covers some Sequential stories. Worth a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U9RpS_2RSk
-
I wonder....with the “moving things around” quote from Dave....maybe the menu and cursor will be moved over to the right or left hand side of the keyboard sort of like how it was to the side of the Tempest?
DSI have always been very consistent in visualizing the signal flow on their instruments' interface, at least if there was enough space to do so. So I would assume that a modification of the way they used to do the layout on instruments like the PEK, the Prophet '08 and Rev2, the Prophet 12 and Pro 2, and the Prophet-6 and OB-6 is either due to a conceptual change or to give other functions more space.
Or they could be moving analog OSCs out, and moving digital wavetables in...
:)
That could be one part of the equation, albeit that has been done with the Prophet 12 as well without leading to significant changes in the interface. So there might be more to that.