The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Other Hardware/Software => Topic started by: eXode on July 19, 2016, 05:48:06 AM
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Three different teasers for an upcoming polyphonic synth by Behringer. Supposedly developed by the MIDAS team.
Teaser 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KYEtspRa0
Teaser 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBL7rfOMyDU
Teaser 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YIsA_-iPMs
I don't care what the logo says, some of those sounds are really nice imho.
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It sounds pretty nice. Ads where they don't show the product are annoying. What do synth geeks like to know? Why, the architecture and controls! Without that, it's vaporware. That said, Arturia did the same dumb thing with the MicroBrute and I wound up wanting one.
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Three different teasers for an upcoming polyphonic synth by Behringer. Supposedly developed by the MIDAS team.
Teaser 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KYEtspRa0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KYEtspRa0)
Teaser 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBL7rfOMyDU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBL7rfOMyDU)
Teaser 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YIsA_-iPMs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YIsA_-iPMs)
I don't care what the logo says, some of those sounds are really nice imho.
I'll be interested to see what this is. Behringer has been working hard to turn around their reputation. I'll be curious to see what they have done.
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Very Juno-based in its panel design. 2 DCOs, 49 keys, at least 4-note polyphony, and with regard to the last video apparently an arpeggiator, and a high-pass filter. Not sure yet about the four aspects with regard to which this synth is supposed to be groundbreaking according to Uli Behringer. One of them might be the price.
And yes, it's been developed with the MIDAS team.
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I've heard that it will cost about €1000 EUR. I hope that it has at least 6 voices.
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And yes, it's been developed with the MIDAS team.
What is MIDAS?
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And yes, it's been developed with the MIDAS team.
What is MIDAS?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas_Consoles
http://www.music-group.com/brand/midas/ourstory?active=Our%20Story
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OK, thanks!
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New teaser video. It has 12 voices! :O
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa3h4srIzuE
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I am a slider fan, a la Roland Jupiter / Juno, so this is beginning to look like a really great option...I wonder if they have designed this using custom ICs per voice (e.g., Wavefront Semi / Alesis Andromeda), voice cards (e.g., DSI Prophet-6/OB-6), or one or two monolithic PCBs (e.g., Roland JX series, DSI Tetra / Poly Evolver).
The real message though here is market disruption: in the monosynth space, Arturia MatrixBrute vs. Moog Voyager vs. their own Minimoog Model D reissue; in the polysynth space, the DSI "new-issues" (P6, OB-6) vs. this Behringer unit which seems to uncannily resemble an older Roland Jupiter / Juno unit. And I do understand that this project has been in the works for a very long time....
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain that both the MatrixBrute and the Behringer unit are manufactured in China/APJ, to hit a specific (disruptive) price point; the notion that the Tetra is now selling new (discontinued) for less than $500 is disruptive of its own accord.
With Gibson on the skids at the moment, I can only hope that this is not the harbinger of the next wave of pain and suffering for domestic specialist MI manufacturers.
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New teaser video. It has 12 voices! :O
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa3h4srIzuE
If Richard Devine says its impressive that's a good sign!
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The real message though here is market disruption: in the monosynth space, Arturia MatrixBrute vs. Moog Voyager vs. their own Minimoog Model D reissue; in the polysynth space, the DSI "new-issues" (P6, OB-6) vs. this Behringer unit which seems to uncannily resemble an older Roland Jupiter / Juno unit. And I do understand that this project has been in the works for a very long time....
Could be. Uli Behringer also mentioned in a couple of forums that this new Behringer synth is only going to be the beginning. They're actively planning to enhance their own synth branch. In terms of resources they might even have the upper hand compared to Arturia. The timing could also be a bit unfortunate for Arturia with the announcement of the Minimoog reissue. Not really the same synths, but some people might think that they'd just continue saving a bit more to get an iconic synth instead. After all, the MatrixBrute won't appeal to impulse buyers. Plus: the mono synth market is way more saturated than the poly synth market at this point.
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Could be. Uli Behringer also mentioned in a couple of forums that this new Behringer synth is only going to be the beginning. They're actively planning to enhance their own synth branch. In terms of resources they might even have the upper hand compared to Arturia. The timing could also be a bit unfortunate for Arturia with the announcement of the Minimoog reissue. Not really the same synths, but some people might think that they'd just continue saving a bit more to get an iconic synth instead. After all, the MatrixBrute won't appeal to impulse buyers. Plus: the mono synth market is way more saturated than the poly synth market at this point.
I'm really curious to see more of this synth. Behringer has steadily been making more quality products. And a 12 voice polysynth could be a great place for them to plant their flag.
I'm not certain, but in one of the demos, I thought I heard something quite different in the voice architecture. Not sure what it was -- but something sounded "new".
Anyway, does anyone know when they are planning to unleash more specific information about this puppy?
Cheers!
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Could be. Uli Behringer also mentioned in a couple of forums that this new Behringer synth is only going to be the beginning. They're actively planning to enhance their own synth branch. In terms of resources they might even have the upper hand compared to Arturia. The timing could also be a bit unfortunate for Arturia with the announcement of the Minimoog reissue. Not really the same synths, but some people might think that they'd just continue saving a bit more to get an iconic synth instead. After all, the MatrixBrute won't appeal to impulse buyers. Plus: the mono synth market is way more saturated than the poly synth market at this point.
I'm really curious to see more of this synth. Behringer has steadily been making more quality products. And a 12 voice polysynth could be a great place for them to plant their flag.
I'm not certain, but in one of the demos, I thought I heard something quite different in the voice architecture. Not sure what it was -- but something sounded "new".
Anyway, does anyone know when they are planning to unleash more specific information about this puppy?
Cheers!
Maybe you heard a layered sound. I think there was one in the 4th video.
So far, it's offering quite a bit: 12 voices, 2 DCOs, 2 LFOs, FX, LP and HP filter (at least in one example it sounded like an HP filter is on board), arpeggiator, and probably multi-timbrality - at least for layers and splits. Maybe even a sequencer on top of it. The key point is going to be the price of course. That's the element, Behringer could really shake up the market with.
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Maybe you heard a layered sound. I think there was one in the 4th video.
So far, it's offering quite a bit: 12 voices, 2 DCOs, 2 LFOs, FX, LP and HP filter (at least in one example it sounded like an HP filter is on board), arpeggiator, and probably multi-timbrality - at least for layers and splits. Maybe even a sequencer on top of it. The key point is going to be the price of course. That's the element, Behringer could really shake up the market with.
I'll have to go back and listen again... I'm hoping that when they say "something groundbreaking" that they mean something other than price.
Don't get me wrong, price is important, but I'd like to see a new concept in synthesis. At least to me, that would be "groundbreaking".
Cheers!
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Maybe you heard a layered sound. I think there was one in the 4th video.
So far, it's offering quite a bit: 12 voices, 2 DCOs, 2 LFOs, FX, LP and HP filter (at least in one example it sounded like an HP filter is on board), arpeggiator, and probably multi-timbrality - at least for layers and splits. Maybe even a sequencer on top of it. The key point is going to be the price of course. That's the element, Behringer could really shake up the market with.
I'll have to go back and listen again... I'm hoping that when they say "something groundbreaking" that they mean something other than price.
Don't get me wrong, price is important, but I'd like to see a new concept in synthesis. At least to me, that would be "groundbreaking".
Cheers!
Yeah, I'm still curious about the groundbreaking stuff too. So far, it's hard to guess. But I assume the price will be one factor, though not the only one. The only thing I know is that before the engineering started on this synth, MIDAS did some research on how to reproduce the sounds of instruments whose components are not available anymore, like on vintage Roland stuff, etc.
As for the "game changer" thing that is often brought up by Uli Behringer, price must play a role. I assume that one message is going to be, "look, this is how affordable you can actually make an analog poly synth in 2016."
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On the last video, you could see that when some sounds are played it looks like several LED's light up at the same time. So it probably offers some way of stacking, perhaps modes inspired by the OB-Mx (Double, Triple, Quad, Hex)?
Also, this still image shows that DCO2 has something called TONE MOD.
(https://synthwaveblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/image12.png?w=365&h=206&crop=1)
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On the German synth forum Sequencer.de, one user designed a visual of what we know already:
(http://www.sequencer.de/synthesizer/download/file.php?id=19654&mode=view)
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On the German synth forum Sequencer.de, one user designed a visual of what we know already:
(http://www.sequencer.de/synthesizer/download/file.php?id=19654&mode=view)
A blue question mark! Seems about right.
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Starts to be more and more interesting :P ! Of course, always wait to test it in a store to hear the real stuff ;)
May consider buying this one instead of the hypothetic OB-P12 I'm dreaming of (4/5 oct kbd which is an OB6+P6 with P12/Pro2 interface and screen)...
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It looks pretty ugly and cheap…
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It's called the "DeepMind 12," and it has that department store Casio appearance. It does sound good, but it looks like the sort of keyboard you'd buy for your nephew on his twelfth birthday.
http://www.matrixsynth.com/2016/07/new-behringer-12-voice-analog-synth.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Matrixsynth+%28MATRIXSYNTH+Atom%29
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It's called the "DeepMind 12," and it has that department store Casio appearance. It does sound good, but it looks like the sort of keyboard you'd buy for your nephew on his twelfth birthday.
Yes. And what a cringeworthy name.
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Especially for a twelve-year-old nephew. I would have suggested the "Umm, Like."
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Especially for a twelve-year-old nephew. I would have suggested the "Umm, Like."
Well, some twelve-year-olds can already have deep minds.
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Yes, but they don't have twelve deep minds, only one, so what's your point?
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Are minds monophonic only?
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Absolutely. Two minds are called schizophrenic. But you can always have stereo filters.
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Absolutely. Two minds are called schizophrenic. But you can always have stereo filters.
How about Libras?
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And the Behringer bashing has begun... *sigh* :)
Actually I find it to be rather good looking, and the specs so far sounds very promising to me... seems it's going to be MIDI specced to it's teeth, and even WiFi onboard... I will have to wait for a rack version though.
If this is done right (and Behringer HAS BECOME A LOT BETTER OVER THE YEARS, NO MATTER WHAT THE BASHERS SAY!), this will be a major DSI contender. I read that the FX is TC and Klark as well...
I'm anxiously waiting to see/hear more of this.
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The slider caps as shown in the photos are 3D-printed, so I suspect that the finish quality of the product as released will be a bit better. I've generally been pretty impressed with Behringer's effects (e.g., their emulation of a Roland Dimension-D in the XR-Series small-format digital mixers is pretty spot-on), and they have definitely moved up a few notches as the Music Group has enlarged.
I also feel that, in some respects, their mixers have ultimately performed more reliably after an extended period of time than, say, their Mackie/Loud equivalents, so the perennial arguments about copied designs fall apart.
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As I said, it does sound quite good. We all seem to agree on that. I just don't like the appearance or name. And I've learned to be wary of instruments that offer a lot of onboard effects, because most every patch you hear is saturated with them, so that you never really get a good clean listen to the actual tone of the instrument.
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And the Behringer bashing has begun... *sigh* :)
No Behringer bashing here, simply because I never owned anything they produced. I only operated their mixers while a was a projectionist for a while.
The look is object to a personal matter of taste I guess, so there's really not much to argue about.
The only thing I'm concerned about with regard to a company like Behringer is production ethics. - Yeah, I hear the cynics say, "stop moralizing" or "then throw away your computer." However, this discussion will depend on the price they're planning to sell at.
Will they compete with DSI et al? - Yes. Is the comparison just? - No, since Behringer, or rather the Music Group conglomerate is a huge hypercapitalist manufacturer following nowadays' Silicon Valley business model that has production capacities that simply don't compare to small companies like DSI, Moog, Elektron, Vermona, Modal Electronics, and the likes.
The only things I know with regard to the production process at Behringer are based on Uli Behringer's statements. According to these, he thinks that engineers are paid the same in China, the US, and Europe, he adds fitness studios to the mix of employee self-optimization, and that all manufacturing steps "below" engineering are purely automatized.
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And the Behringer bashing has begun... *sigh* :)
No Behringer bashing here, simply because I never owned anything they produced. I only operated their mixers while a was a projectionist for a while.
The look is object to a personal matter of taste I guess, so there's really not much to argue about.
The only thing I'm concerned about with regard to a company like Behringer is production ethics. - Yeah, I hear the cynics say, "stop moralizing" or "then throw away your computer." However, this discussion will depend on the price they're planning to sell at.
Will they compete with DSI et al? - Yes. Is the comparison just? - No, since Behringer, or rather the Music Group conglomerate is a huge hypercapitalist manufacturer following nowadays' Silicon Valley business model that has production capacities that simply don't compare to small companies like DSI, Moog, Elektron, Vermona, Modal Electronics, and the likes.
The only things I know with regard to the production process at Behringer are based on Uli Behringer's statements. According to these, he thinks that engineers are paid the same in China, the US, and Europe, he adds fitness studios to the mix of employee self-optimization, and that all manufacturing steps "below" engineering are purely automatized.
A corollary to that train of thought is this: would I rather spend just a little bit more and get a synth that was handmade by a guy who's been hand making synths and synth components most of his life, and therefore knows and cares about what he's doing? Hell yes!
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Especially for a twelve-year-old nephew. I would have suggested the "Umm, Like."
Oh, you gonna love this: According to this German article, the prototype was called "Phat 12" (first photo in the article).
https://www.amazona.de/preview-interview-behringer-deepmind-12-analogsynthesizer/ (https://www.amazona.de/preview-interview-behringer-deepmind-12-analogsynthesizer/)
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Especially for a twelve-year-old nephew. I would have suggested the "Umm, Like."
Oh, you gonna love this: According to this German article, the prototype was called "Phat 12" (first photo in the article).
https://www.amazona.de/preview-interview-behringer-deepmind-12-analogsynthesizer/ (https://www.amazona.de/preview-interview-behringer-deepmind-12-analogsynthesizer/)
That's funny, because I was just thinking, "We've finally passed through the Mopho-Moogerfooger-Phatty phase of instrument naming." Both DSI and Moog seem to have retired those raunchy names, although I'm not sure about the "Mother-32". I'd be happy to see these companies use a little more taste and decency. But "DeepMind 12"? Kinda tacky. It makes me better appreciate the Prophet theme. I also liked the name, "Tetr4".
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Whatever the name, it is its capabilities and sound that are the most important.
What is also good is to have synths coming from different brands in order to extend the sonic palette.
This video tells us more about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caMT4BYFCCk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caMT4BYFCCk)
What will be interesting to test is the ratio between what you can do on the synth and more or less directly with the knobs without too much menu diving and what will be possible to do with the editor that will come with it.
I guess we can expect a price 1500-2300 EUR which would be competitive for such synth.
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Whatever the name, it is its capabilities and sound that are the most important.
That's not true for some of us. My wife wanted to incorporate a small monophonic synthesizer into her music classes for children. The instrument that perfectly suited her needs was the Mopho Keyboard. Could she use a synthesizer with such a name in such a context? Positively not. And there are other contexts where the same problem prevails.
It's a reasonable request: just keep it clean.
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I guess we can expect a price 1500-2300 EUR which would be competitive for such synth.
I'd rather assume anything between 1000 and 1500 $/€. If they want to be competitive, it will be cheaper than a Prophet '08 although it has 4 more voices. That's my guess at least.
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I don't get the objection to DeepMind as a name. It's not vulgar and it's not too insouciant (like, say MicroBrute), nor a stupid pun (like Timbre Wolf), nor meaninglessly numeric (K2500). It's sort of like "Dark Energy" or "Tetra," not the best synth name in the world*, but by no means deserving of being a point of contention.
As for the looks of it, it sort of does look like one of Casio's better arranger keyboards, but that's probably not really fair. My impression is that this isn't some off-the-cuff junk, but approaches some pretty serious territory... speaking as someone who's never been impressed by the s#!& Behringer s#!&s out.
As for effects, yeah. You'd totally want to hear it without them to get a real feel for the thing.
* Which is "Minitaur"
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I'd rather assume anything between 1000 and 1500 $/€. If they want to be competitive, it will be cheaper than a Prophet '08 although it has 4 more voices. That's my guess at least.
After reading this on the MATRIXSYNTH site, my guess is that it'll fall in the $3000USD (or €2700) bracket. They seem to be pretty proud of it, and it'll probably be up in Prophet 12 territory, price-wise.
"While the price has not been confirmed nor any price indication been given to retailers, we like to manage expectations.
With approx. 4,000 components, the DeepMind12 is one of the most complex synthesizers that has ever been built. Due to its discrete design structure, it has vastly more components than you will likely find in any of the current synthesizers on the market.
While it has always been our company philosophy to work on very small margins, we would however never sacrifice component or manufacturing quality nor sell below cost. Like all our products, the DeepMind12 will come with a 3 Year Warranty program."
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"DeepMind 12" is tacky to me, but it's not going to keep me awake at night. I was only making a few jokes about it. I don't mean to blow the issue out of proportion. The name is better than many others, that's for certain, and it is clean.
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As an add-on to my previous comment:
In the video, the developers mention that they want to present a synth not as a rich man's toy. Now, particularly in Europe, most analog (poly) synths are considered to be rich man's toys, or toys for rather wealthy people. Especially products from the US due to currency and customs duties, etc. I think the 2000 € mark is psychologically not going to work for Behringer's undertaking. This is going to be for people with average incomes that don't want to save up for months in order to get their hands on it - the masses as they say in the video. I haven't seen lots of innovative stuff about this synth yet - even the Wi-Fi implementation is something that has also been developed for the upcoming Nonlinear Labs C15 synth. So I assume that the price in itself will be innovative, i.e. competitive.
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I'd rather assume anything between 1000 and 1500 $/€. If they want to be competitive, it will be cheaper than a Prophet '08 although it has 4 more voices. That's my guess at least.
After reading this on the MATRIXSYNTH site, my guess is that it'll fall in the $3000USD (or €2700) bracket. They seem to be pretty proud of it, and it'll probably be up in Prophet 12 territory, price-wise.
"While the price has not been confirmed nor any price indication been given to retailers, we like to manage expectations.
With approx. 4,000 components, the DeepMind12 is one of the most complex synthesizers that has ever been built. Due to its discrete design structure, it has vastly more components than you will likely find in any of the current synthesizers on the market.
While it has always been our company philosophy to work on very small margins, we would however never sacrifice component or manufacturing quality nor sell below cost. Like all our products, the DeepMind12 will come with a 3 Year Warranty program."
I've read that as well, but please see my above comment. Prophet 12 territory is rich man's toys territory for most people. Hardly anyone of those, who get super enthusiastic about this synth would buy it if it was selling for $3000USD (or €2700). I truly think that Behringer's message is going to be, "see, this is what an analog poly synth can cost."
Uli Behringer also mentioned in another forum that they don't need to make a large profit, and if they do so, they are just going to reinvest it into new production.
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. o O ( speculation games )
. o O ( module please )
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. o O ( module please )
But no one likes the module people anymore. ;)
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So if the DeepMind 12 resembles a Roland Juno, it's because it was based on the Juno 106, but with many features added. Interesting.
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But no one likes the module people anymore. ;)
And obviously modules do not sell at all so only unwise manufacturers produces them. ;)
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If you don't read German (or if, like me, your German is rusty), go to the amazons.de site using the Chrome web browser... Chrome will translate the article to English for you. Not perfect, but you will be able to understand.
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The German site is estimating the price to be in the €1000 to 1500 segment.
That said, after reading that German article my interest in it has cooled off some. There seems to be way too much editing via the menu for me personally. I'm a hand's on kind of guy and I think the Prophet 08 works as the "minimum". I never clicked with the Poly Evolver Key, nor the Prophet 12 because of too many shared controls. That said, it was a bit of a face palm moment for me when I saw that setting the pulse width on the oscillator seem to require editing via the menu/display. This kind of reinforces why I think that It actually will be quite cheap (again, €1000 - €1500 is probably pretty close).
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So if the DeepMind 12 resembles a Roland Juno, it's because it was based on the Juno 106, but with many features added. Interesting.
That's a pretty good place to start, if your intention is to improve upon an old, widely-sold and simple-to-use classic. While the KiwiTechnics upgrade for the Juno-106 brings it into the modern age in terms of functionality, it's buried under the old Roland button/slider layout.
Also - from what I understood within the video, one can set the PWM to be synchronized (monophonic, like the Juno-106) or independent (polyphonic, like most everything else).
All that said - it could use a bit less beating with the ugly stick: perhaps a wash of color and a display backlight / button color synchronization - and to SS' point above, good presets that are not soaked in compression / distortion / reverb like a bad Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center.
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All that said - it could use a bit less beating with the ugly stick: perhaps a wash of color and a display backlight / button color synchronization - and to SS' point above, good presets that are not soaked in compression / distortion / reverb like a bad Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center.
I see you've been to MY local Guitar Center! ;)
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All that said - it could use a bit less beating with the ugly stick: perhaps a wash of color and a display backlight / button color synchronization - and to SS' point above, good presets that are not soaked in compression / distortion / reverb like a bad Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center.
I see you've been to MY local Guitar Center! ;)
Next to One Hundred Oaks?
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good presets that are not soaked in compression / distortion / reverb like a bad Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center.
What baffles me is how many people go crazy about the effect section. While it indeed seems to offer quite flexible routings and all that (pic below), it's still an add-on and not really the core of what makes an analog synth appealing. I mean it's absolutely practical for live purposes, but some fellows act as if Behringer were the first to do that.
(https://www.amazona.de/wp-content/uploads/2030/01/DeepMind-12-B-580x196.jpg)
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All that said - it could use a bit less beating with the ugly stick: perhaps a wash of color and a display backlight / button color synchronization - and to SS' point above, good presets that are not soaked in compression / distortion / reverb like a bad Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center.
I see you've been to MY local Guitar Center! ;)
Next to One Hundred Oaks?
or CoolSprings... they are one and the same
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All that said - it could use a bit less beating with the ugly stick: perhaps a wash of color and a display backlight / button color synchronization - and to SS' point above, good presets that are not soaked in compression / distortion / reverb like a bad Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center.
I see you've been to MY local Guitar Center! ;)
Next to One Hundred Oaks?
or CoolSprings... they are one and the same
Isn't that the convenience about Guitar Centers? ;D
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So the question is - multi- / bi-timbral? Or not?
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good presets that are not soaked in compression / distortion / reverb like a bad Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center.
What baffles me is how many people go crazy about the effect section. While it indeed seems to offer quite flexible routings and all that (pic below), it's still an add-on and not really the core of what makes an analog synth appealing. I mean it's absolutely practical for live purposes, but some fellows act as if Behringer were the first to do that.
(https://www.amazona.de/wp-content/uploads/2030/01/DeepMind-12-B-580x196.jpg)
My only issue with the effects is that I like to hear the instrument without them and to know that the designer is confident enough to let the instrument stand unprocessed. After all, there isn't a sound on God's green earth that wouldn't sound magnificent when processed through an Eventide or a Strymon pedal. I'm surprised that some comedic musician hasn't already made of video of absurdly common sounds being magnified into symphonies by a Big Sky. So, I'm always a bit suspicious when a synthesizer is provided with a number of onboard effects. Again, that's what has annoyed with many of the OB-6 demos - frequent use of the phaser. First of all, I don't usually like phaser, and secondly, it masks the actual sound of the instrument and makes you think it's better than it really is. I would only want an instrument that could stand with just a bit of reverb, nothing more.
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My only issue with the effects is that I like to hear the instrument without them and to know that the designer is confident enough to let the instrument stand unprocessed. After all, there isn't a sound on God's green earth that wouldn't sound magnificent when processed through an Eventide or a Strymon pedal.
Right. And it is obvious in the last teaser that the pad is drenched in effects.
It depends on one's approach to sound design I guess. One can of course regard effects as integral sound shaping tools that should be involved from the very beginning, just like an oscillator, etc.
Maybe it's my background as a guitarist that makes me look out for a good clean signal first before I end up adding anything else. It's also rewarding if something that already sounds great dry, can then even sound greater with a bit of delay or reverb.
From a guitarist's perspective I also learned that reverb should be rather used sparsely if you don't want to emulate a by now clichéd ambient sound. If rhythm and timing are important ingredients though, it's better to use a simple delay to enhance the spacious effect. Many people, for example, think that someone like David Gilmour uses tons of reverb, which is not true. He solely gets his big tone by delays and a couple of drives (one at a time only) and maybe something like a gently used Univibe, Phaser, or Chorus. His rig is by no means sophisticated in terms of single devices' complexity and it all starts with a good clean tone by itself, which on a synth would equal oscillator, mixer, envelope, and maybe a couple of LFO settings.
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I agree. It comes down to one's philosophy of musical sound. I was formed more by organ and harpsichord, and I view the synthesizer as just one more unique keyboard instrument. I consider reverb, delay, chorus, flanger, and phaser to be effects that are definitely separate from and added to the base sound generated by the actual instrument. Although, in the world of electronic music, a good argument can be made that these effects are part and parcel of the whole designing of sound, and every bit as fundamental as oscillators and filters, still, I prefer a philosophy that comes from playing traditional keyboard instruments: the instrument produces the fundamental musical sound, and then the acoustics subtly enhance it. So, if I were considering a harpsichord for home, I would not want to hear it played in a large auditorium from the back. No, I'd want to hear the raw sound unadorned by such acoustics. For me, it's the same with a synthesizer.
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And the Behringer bashing has begun... *sigh* :)
No Behringer bashing here, simply because I never owned anything they produced. I only operated their mixers while a was a projectionist for a while.
The look is object to a personal matter of taste I guess, so there's really not much to argue about.
The only thing I'm concerned about with regard to a company like Behringer is production ethics. - Yeah, I hear the cynics say, "stop moralizing" or "then throw away your computer." However, this discussion will depend on the price they're planning to sell at.
Will they compete with DSI et al? - Yes. Is the comparison just? - No, since Behringer, or rather the Music Group conglomerate is a huge hypercapitalist manufacturer following nowadays' Silicon Valley business model that has production capacities that simply don't compare to small companies like DSI, Moog, Elektron, Vermona, Modal Electronics, and the likes.
The only things I know with regard to the production process at Behringer are based on Uli Behringer's statements. According to these, he thinks that engineers are paid the same in China, the US, and Europe, he adds fitness studios to the mix of employee self-optimization, and that all manufacturing steps "below" engineering are purely automatized.
I cannot argue with the moral point, as I'm a firm believer in spreading wealth on this earth, and I do not like when companies get too big and leaves no room for others to share in wealth... but seen from a consumer's point of view, most musical products are very expensive, if you look at other areas of electronics... especially consumer products... and then comes the debate on quality, which of course cost more.
But I still feel that this market could use a dip down in price, since the devices MOOG and DSI produce is rather expensive... that way more (poor) people could get these products... Behringer hsa allways targeted their products at these people... and I certainly hope they will this time too.
Yes... they will compete with Modal and DSI... it's obvious that is what Uli actualy want to, because in a video he is quoted for having insisted that the DeepMind should be 12 voice, and not 8 as the engineers had first thought... this to me is a clear sign that Uli want to compete with other 12 voice machines, and there are only two... 001 and P12 :)
I'm pretty exited about this synth actually, if it delivers... every parameter is MIDI controllable (was stated in a video)... has TC and Klark effects (quality)... fully analog... 12 voices... I'm only waiting for ONE thing more... a rack version, and some in depth info on MIDI specs.
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good presets that are not soaked in compression / distortion / reverb like a bad Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center.
What baffles me is how many people go crazy about the effect section. While it indeed seems to offer quite flexible routings and all that (pic below), it's still an add-on and not really the core of what makes an analog synth appealing. I mean it's absolutely practical for live purposes, but some fellows act as if Behringer were the first to do that.
(https://www.amazona.de/wp-content/uploads/2030/01/DeepMind-12-B-580x196.jpg)
Baffled? ... i's probably because some people use the synth in another way than you are used to... to me build in effects is a god sent, because they can be part of the program itself... to me FX is a vital sound sculpting tool and if it's not part of the preset, you cannot use them to tailor them to a specific sound... it's not overly important to have them, but it's certainly a nice addition.
Delays and Reverbs I usualy want to add externally because these are FX that create space and depth and the illusion of the instruments being in the same space... thus they are needed as master FX... these I can live without on a synth... but all the modulation FX I really like to have as part of the machine... the "insert FX" so to speak... chorus, flanger, phaser, distortion etc... but delay and reverb can also be useful in the sound design.
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I do understand though, that people want to hear the raw dry sound of the thing... I would like that too... but I'm certain that will come as soon as it has been released and the first few geeks has gotten their hands on one... especialy if all the prior videos from Behringer has not shown any dry sounds... the first thing they will do is produce a video with tests and stuff :) ... I'm not one for being the "first buyer" anyway, as I like to wait a bit and see what people find (bugs etc.), so there is plenty of time to hear the raw sound as well before making the plunge ..
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I'm curious to see this thing compete with DSI and Modal as well... And I think it will come down to basic things things (at least at first) -- sound quality, feature set / modulation matrix, and price.
So far the rumour mill seems fairly positive on sound and price. I mean the demos we've seen online do sound good, and the $1500 price point for a 12-voice poly is very competitive.
I've yet to see anything on the modulation matrix... I think this will be key because that is the domain where the P12 and 001 really shine. Both have very deep modulation capabilities and are a large part of what makes these synths stand above the rest of heard.
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I don't think it will compete that much with the P12 actually because it's analog... P12 has digital oscillators capable of doing stuff that the Behringer will not touch... I'd probably rather compare it to the P8.
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Yes... they will compete with Modal and DSI... it's obvious that is what Uli actualy want to, because in a video he is quoted for having insisted that the DeepMind should be 12 voice, and not 8 as the engineers had first thought... this to me is a clear sign that Uli want to compete with other 12 voice machines, and there are only two... 001 and P12 :)
Technically, they might compete against those, but then the Prophet 12 and the 002 are hybrids, and especially the Prophet 12 offers a modulation matrix that hasn't been surpassed by any other hardware manufacturer. Also, when it comes to sonic characteristics, products like the Prophet 12 and the 002 are not designed for an audience that exclusively craves an analog poly in the first place.
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Baffled? ... i's probably because some people use the synth in another way than you are used to... to me build in effects is a god sent, because they can be part of the program itself... to me FX is a vital sound sculpting tool and if it's not part of the preset, you cannot use them to tailor them to a specific sound... it's not overly important to have them, but it's certainly a nice addition.
Nah. I said that I understand that you can use effects right away as sound sculpturing ingredients just on the same level as oscillators, filters, etc. There's no right and wrong in how and when to use effects (the rights and wrongs are determined by a particular goal only, nothing else). I'm only baffled by the fact that in some reactions towards this synth, the effects have become the center of attention, that's all. Because effects are not what makes an analog synth of any kind particularly desirable in the first place.
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Baffled? ... i's probably because some people use the synth in another way than you are used to... to me build in effects is a god sent, because they can be part of the program itself... to me FX is a vital sound sculpting tool and if it's not part of the preset, you cannot use them to tailor them to a specific sound... it's not overly important to have them, but it's certainly a nice addition.
Nah. I said that I understand that you can use effects right away as sound sculpturing ingredients just on the same level as oscillators, filters, etc. There's no right and wrong in how and when to use effects (the rights and wrongs are determined by a particular goal only, nothing else). I'm only baffled by the fact that in some reactions towards this synth, the effects have become the center of attention, that's all. Because effects are not what makes an analog synth of any kind particularly desirable in the first place.
Well... I'd say that I'll eave that decision to the individual buyer... I bet there are some for whom, the FX is a major decision factor... personally they are a big part of the whole package, but certainly not all.
I'd say, that if you wanted to have an analog synth with keys for live playing, FX built in could be an immense advantage because you would not have to drag external FX along with you, and you would be free from having to dial in the needed FX on these between sets... with built in FX, these would follow the preset.
Actualy I'm glad to see this trend of putting digital FX in with analog synths... Hypersynth Xenophone, P12, P6, OB6 and now the Behringer too...
by the way... I've seen a picture a couple of days ago, depicting a desktop version of the Behringer synth... it was released by Uli himself, asking if this would be something people would want to see... I hope it'll be made...
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As always, there is always a huge fly in the ointment. 49 keys. 12 voices (great) and 49 keys haha, not great.
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As always, there is always a huge fly in the ointment. 49 keys. 12 voices (great) and 49 keys haha, not great.
Sheesh, not for a 12-voice poly. What's the point, even?
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I thought the keyboard length was one of the most glaring shortcomings. This 49-note business is an unhealthy arrangement for serious keyboardists. It's a musical blight like mini-keys.
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I thought the keyboard length was one of the most glaring shortcomings. This 49-note business is an unhealthy arrangement for serious keyboardists. It's a musical blight like mini-keys.
I'd rather have 49 full-size keys, though, than this:
(http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/korg-microstation-379255.jpg)
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I think for up to 6 voices, 49 keys are fine. But everything from 8 voices on should have 61 keys.
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I thought the keyboard length was one of the most glaring shortcomings. This 49-note business is an unhealthy arrangement for serious keyboardists. It's a musical blight like mini-keys.
I hate mini-keys!!!! :(
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Fortunately, we don't have to worry about DSI producing mini-keys. They've taken an oath of fidelity to the standard size.
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I think for up to 6 voices, 49 keys are fine. But everything from 8 voices on should have 61 keys.
I would agree with that. There's a place for 49-note synthesizers, but the total design should make sense; fewer voices, fewer keys. Personally, though, I think 49-keys is the ideal number for a mono synth.
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the module looks good though:
(http://i0.wp.com/www.synthtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/deepmind-12-rackmount-front-e1470076771428.jpg?fit=1024%2C512)
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I thought the keyboard length was one of the most glaring shortcomings. This 49-note business is an unhealthy arrangement for serious keyboardists. It's a musical blight like mini-keys.
That depends a lot upon how you use your keyboard... 49 is the absolute minimum for me, but I can certainly live with it, even though I also prefer playing live... I think it has a lot to do with what genres you play, and what way you record. Playing a huge range makes the frequency spectrum you occupy a lot larger, allowing less space for other tracks to "!be there" as well.
I know that you record everything in one go, not doing "tracks" in that sense, so I can certainly understand your concern... but actualy, having 3 to 4 octaves can be an advantage, if you record in tracks because you will automatically be restricted to a certain part of the frequency spectrum for anything you play... play the lead in one track... shift a few octaves down, and then do the bass... etc. etc...
I often find that with a large amount of keys, I tend to go all over the range with just a single instrument... that leaves less room for other instruments later on.
I'm not dissing the need for longer keybeds, don't get me wrong... but not everyone needs 5-7 octaves... even if they are live players... there should be "frequency room" for the other players as well.
Let's just hope, that Behringer will do like Yamaha usually does... create different keysizes... then everyone can be happy (as long as they do module versions as well)
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the module looks good though:
(http://i0.wp.com/www.synthtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/deepmind-12-rackmount-front-e1470076771428.jpg?fit=1024%2C512)
Very much! :) ... I certainly hope it will be reality :)
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What are all those Edit buttons for?
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I guess they set the main screen area to edit the module they are near.
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I thought the keyboard length was one of the most glaring shortcomings. This 49-note business is an unhealthy arrangement for serious keyboardists. It's a musical blight like mini-keys.
That depends a lot upon how you use your keyboard... 49 is the absolute minimum for me, but I can certainly live with it, even though I also prefer playing live... I think it has a lot to do with what genres you play, and what way you record. Playing a huge range makes the frequency spectrum you occupy a lot larger, allowing less space for other tracks to "!be there" as well.
I know that you record everything in one go, not doing "tracks" in that sense, so I can certainly understand your concern... but actualy, having 3 to 4 octaves can be an advantage, if you record in tracks because you will automatically be restricted to a certain part of the frequency spectrum for anything you play... play the lead in one track... shift a few octaves down, and then do the bass... etc. etc...
I often find that with a large amount of keys, I tend to go all over the range with just a single instrument... that leaves less room for other instruments later on.
I'm not dissing the need for longer keybeds, don't get me wrong... but not everyone needs 5-7 octaves... even if they are live players... there should be "frequency room" for the other players as well.
Let's just hope, that Behringer will do like Yamaha usually does... create different keysizes... then everyone can be happy (as long as they do module versions as well)
Yes, what you've said is reasonable. My point is, with a long keyboard, everything is possible. You can use just two octaves of it, or the entire five. As long as you have room in your set up, there are no drawbacks to having a full five octaves (and that's one good reason for having some choices: room). It also makes possible the performance of a complete piece of music on a single instrument. In addition, I often use a full five octaves for melody playing. I wouldn't call this a "lead," because of the musical style, so it's not as if I'm into these strange wide-ranging "solos." But I definitely need every note, and I would hate to put limitations on musical ideas merely because my keyboard was too short. That could have serious musical consequences.
Five octave keyboards serve us all, regardless of what we play. But I realize not every one wants one. My issue is that four-octave keyboards and mini-keys have become more common as of late. The result is that some of us have to pass on instruments that we would otherwise like to have (Korg Arp Odyssey). The Behringer, for example, is out of the question for me. Twelve voices squeezed into four octaves? Who's the wise guy that came up with that tortuous idea? This is where the module becomes the only option.
By the way, the module does look nice. It might make a fine compliment to a Prophet 12.
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Couldn't resist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxXs0I2lS8o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxXs0I2lS8o)
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I must admit, at first I thought, "Oh no, not another stinkin' DeepMind 12 preview. Just come out with the thing and quit the hype."
I realize there's no such thing as bad advertising, but I don't think unnecessary tantalizing of potential customers is good either. Sure, when winter NAMM comes around and DSI has something new, we ask for little hints of the instrument, but these are so minor, and they're usually just before the full announcement. But Behringer has taken this practice beyond all reason, so that their multiple video glimpses have become a topic unto themselves. The above video is an example of this irritation.
I hope the DeepMind 12 is a good reasonably priced instrument and that many people like it. But I'm not interested in making an avocation out of learning about it. The way Behringer has gone about the whole announcement affair completely turns me off the instrument. I'll take another look at it in three months when the game is over.
I've never owned a product by Behringer and I know very little about the company. But I sure do dislike their style.
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Ha! "Front-mounted keyboard" indeed.
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I will just have to slum it with my OB8 and Prophet 08 until manufacturers come to their senses and realise that people might actually want 5 octaves. Funny how all the classic poly synths had 5 octave keyboards and besides the prophet 5, the Jupiter, CS80 and OBies had 8 voices. There are still people out there that like to write songs. The Gearslutz thread on the OB6 was funny with the pages and pages of debate about if the OB6 could recreate the Jump sound. Well, yes it could but as was eventually pointed out, you just could not play the song on 49 keys :-)
Not being taken in by the whole 'portability' angle either or 'just buy the module'. Each would still involve using an external 5 octave keyboard to get the best out of them so no advantage gained at all.
Although I love the OB8, my Prophet 08 still gets as much use. I really would have loved to have been able to get the OB6 instead of getting a vintage Oberheim and when DSI release something with a grown up keyboard and 8 voices, I will buy it.
Can't believe Behringer have made the same mistake.
It seems it's like the dumbing down of music. If they are only aiming at DJ's, just put one key on it. :-)
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Amen, brother! Tell it like it is.
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So $999.99 it is.
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So $999.99 it is.
It's a very competitive price, no doubt about that.
Video #6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nqiEj7StYI
Video #7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0XjNsfccSU
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Assuming that it'll sell rather well, the folks at Roland might be kicking themselves now.
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Assuming that it'll sell rather well, the folks at Roland might be kicking themselves now.
Roland blew an opportunity for a proper polysynth re-issue - the JD-Xa just wasn't it, and certainly not at 4 voices - you get far more bang for the buck with a Tetra.
They ought to do a proper Jupiter-8 re-issue and stop screwing around–no digital parts or any of that nonsense.
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I agree. Roland should read the signs of the times and re-issue at least one of the old Junos and one of the old Jupiters - or at the very least, the Juno 60. These have been wildly popular for years now, and the Juno 60 would be within the price range of many musicians.
I'm all for research and development, leading to brilliant new designs. But I also have a deep appreciation for the old and the good.
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Roland should read the signs of the times and re-issue at least one of the old Junos and one of the old Jupiters - or at the very least, the Juno 60. These have been wildly popular for years now, and the Juno 60 would be within the price range of many musicians.
This might even be too late by now. I mean, ultimately it will depend on how people that are looking for a Roland flavor are going to be satisfied with the Behringer synth. But in case most are, there's not a lot Roland could add except for pimped out reissues at a rather low price. I'm not even sure if that would be of any interest to them, but then we haven't really seen a bigger synth by Roland in 2016 yet. So maybe they're working on something for next year.
As for the price, I'm really curious about how it is going to affect the broader market. I'm not predicting a DX-7 effect, since this is nothing like a DX-7 was in 1983. Yet, I believe that the competitive price might leave a noticeable impact. If the demand is huge, Behringer will deliver more for the synth market, as they've already indicated by stating that a new synth division is in the works. If the prices for future products stay that competitive, some alternative manufacturers might actually resign, or - if it's feasible - produce exclusively for the high end market.
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Well, then Roland has inexcusably missed their golden opportunity. The Juno 60 was just the right balance of many things, including size. This is where the Behringer fails. Roland has amazed me for years now, for what they haven't produced. And having the audacity to revive the old names and appearances, for instruments that in no way resembled their old classics? That was rather obnoxious. At least DSI, Korg, and Moog have been fairly genuine in retrieving their old instruments.
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Roland should have made an all-analog 6 or 8 voice out of the technology used in the JD-Xa in my humble opinion. Could probably have been priced similarly to the Prophet-6.
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That would have been a good idea, too, but it would have needed more class than the cheap-ish JD-XA. Wood end cheeks are very popular again, and they do look sharp. As it is, the JD-XA looks like a giant cell phone.
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Roland should have made an all-analog 6 or 8 voice out of the technology used in the JD-Xa in my humble opinion. Could probably have been priced similarly to the Prophet-6.
Agreed - the voice itself does not sound bad, and the tooling is there to permit audio-rate modulation of OSC 1 from an external input. The four-voice audio board could be doubled-up fairly easily to achieve eight parts, with separate FX.
I see it more as a product-design problem than anything else.
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Longest presentation so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sy3B9plPCY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sy3B9plPCY)
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Longest presentation so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sy3B9plPCY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sy3B9plPCY)
HA!!! Dude is wearing a Roland Jupiter-8 T-shirt... Nothing subtle about that!
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Longest presentation so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sy3B9plPCY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sy3B9plPCY)
HA!!! Dude is wearing a Roland Jupiter-8 T-shirt... Nothing subtle about that!
Yeah, although it's nowhere near that one.
Also: It seems as if there's no sawtooth option available for DCO 2 - at least not from the front panel. So it looks like DCO 1 provides pulse wave and sawtooth, but DCO 2 only square wave plus tone mod.
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Longest presentation so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sy3B9plPCY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sy3B9plPCY)
HA!!! Dude is wearing a Roland Jupiter-8 T-shirt... Nothing subtle about that!
Yeah, although it's nowhere near that one.
Also: It seems as if there's no sawtooth option available for DCO 2 - at least not from the front panel. So it looks like DCO 1 provides pulse wave and sawtooth, but DCO 2 only square wave plus tone mod.
ToneMod looks like PWM but spread over 2 wave cycles instead of just one. If that's the case, a small different that can lead to some interesting timbers....
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Did someone already post the SOS demo?
https://youtu.be/uYI3Y2O5UYA
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Longest presentation so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sy3B9plPCY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sy3B9plPCY)
HA!!! Dude is wearing a Roland Jupiter-8 T-shirt... Nothing subtle about that!
Yeah, although it's nowhere near that one.
Also: It seems as if there's no sawtooth option available for DCO 2 - at least not from the front panel. So it looks like DCO 1 provides pulse wave and sawtooth, but DCO 2 only square wave plus tone mod.
ToneMod looks like PWM but spread over 2 wave cycles instead of just one. If that's the case, a small different that can lead to some interesting timbers....
Reminds me of the PWM alternatives on the MiniBrute. Something that modifies the harmonic content.
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Did someone already post the SOS demo?
https://youtu.be/uYI3Y2O5UYA
Not yet. I found this quite sobering. Once the effects get turned down in this video, the tone becomes obviously a whole less exciting and rather shallow. - Still not impressed.
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Did someone already post the SOS demo?
https://youtu.be/uYI3Y2O5UYA (https://youtu.be/uYI3Y2O5UYA)
Not yet. I found this quite sobering. Once the effects get turned down in this video, the tone becomes obviously a whole less exciting and rather shallow. - Still not impressed.
I'd Agee with that 100%.
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My problem is that I haven't seen anything but marketing yet and occasionally Uli Behringer's awkward behavior (in my opinion) on Gearslutz. Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer the "out of nowhere announcements" by DSI and a couple of other companies.
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Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer the "out of nowhere announcements" by DSI and a couple of other companies.
Yes, indeed. Behringer, please don't waste our time with any more demos of an instrument that is still a few months away from being released. When it's all ready to go, then talk to us.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsmLuUCPo0
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsmLuUCPo0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYsmLuUCPo0)
Funny. :)
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here was a quick video I shot when I first laid hands on the Deepmind 12. I have since had roughly 3-4 hours on it all to myself. a really impressive board. there will be a lot of haters. let em hate... this thing sounds DAMN good. videos don't even do it justice. and its built very solid. the faders have a bit of side to side wobble... but man its heavy and very thick metal. I still have to edit the rest of my footage. I will also have them on my Synthsummitshow mid october. (I keep trying to get Dave smith on but haven't heard a positive reply :( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEdVFSh5uiI
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Review of the Deepmind 12 by Sonic State:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-kfYzn5VvQ
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It sounds pretty good. Lots of features too. Will be a winner like the X32 was.
Shame about the keyboard :-(
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Sounds okay, but it seems to me that too many features have been stuffed inside, which doesn't help anybody. There's too much menu diving that could have been implemented in a nicer way (good example: the Prophet 12 module).
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Sounds okay, but it seems to me that too many features have been stuffed inside, which doesn't help anybody. There's too much menu diving that could have been implemented in a nicer way (good example: the Prophet 12 module).
Actually, it looks as if it implements a similar edit-page scenario....
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Similar, yes. But it's the combination of display plus the 'soft knobs' and 'soft keys' that makes editing quite intuitiv and easy on the Prophet 12 (keyboard + module) and the Pro 2 in case you need to use the display. Also, the according OLED display gives you less of a headache than this rather cheap looking one Behringer's using, which rather reminds me of some clumsy 1990s ROMpler display (by today's standards) - not very nice to stare at for a longer while.
[Edit: Sorry David, I accidently hit the modify button instead of reply. Fixed it, but hence the note beneath your post.]
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I seem to remember people wanting to discredit the X32 when it came out too. The reluctance to admit it was actually pretty good was funny to watch and for the money, it was a game changer. Now it's become the standard desk at a certain level.
Although I doubt I will be buying this synth due to the 49 keys, it is a cool little synth and the sound clips have been good. I think it has some nice tricks up its sleeve. Hope they bring a 61 key version out in the future.
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I seem to remember people wanting to discredit the X32 when it came out too. The reluctance to admit it was actually pretty good was funny to watch and for the money, it was a game changer. Now it's become the standard desk at a certain level.
Although I doubt I will be buying this synth due to the 49 keys, it is a cool little synth and the sound clips have been good. I think it has some nice tricks up its sleeve. Hope they bring a 61 key version out in the future.
It's certainly a useful synth at this price point, yes. But I don't really regard the DM12 as a game changer, even if it may be advertised as such. Like Rich Hilton said on one SonicTalk episode: people act as if DSI haven't done it before.
Yeah, maybe DSI's instrument don't come with dozens of effects, but their synth engines within themselves have always been more powerful. Plus: I don't necessarily regard an effect section as an integral part of a synthesizer outside the ROMpler world. It can be and it is a part of sound design, yes. But particularly these days, most users have all that as plug-ins already if they're on a budget, or as hardware if they can afford it. From my perspective, that adds to the gimmicky character of the DM12.
And for live use, included effects might be practical, but the amount of drowned-in-effects-sounds I've heard so far, would only make sense in conjunction with a pretty decent PA system, a great live mixer (the person), and great overall acoustics, otherwise such sounds will only turn into mud on stage.
So the only thing that remains as being "game changing" is the price, but that within itself hasn't much to do with a synth engine's quality. It only says a lot about consuming and competition. Soundwise, I haven't heard anything from the DM12 that can't be done with other instruments. Plus: I don't really get what was/is so desirable about the Juno-106, on which the DM12's synth engine is based, in the first place. It's a pretty average novice synth at best.
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Similar, yes. But it's the combination of display plus the 'soft knobs' and 'soft keys' that makes editing quite intuitiv and easy on the Prophet 12 (keyboard + module) and the Pro 2 in case you need to use the display. Also, the according OLED display gives you less of a headache than this rather cheap looking one Behringer's using, which rather reminds me of some clumsy 1990s ROMpler display (by today's standards) - not very nice to stare at for a longer while.
[Edit: Sorry David, I accidently hit the modify button instead of reply. Fixed it, but hence the note beneath your post.]
No worries - I'd agree on the display: the Korg Minilogue does so much more with so little.
In fact, the Minilogue vs. DeepMind provides a perfect inflection point in that the VCO-based Minilogue sounds great with a minimal, modeled delay; the DeepMind, on the other hand, makes use of multi-voice unison and quad effects to flesh out its sound, while the basic, single-oscillator waveforms sound as sterile as you'd expect them to on a DCO-based unit.
I'd love to see what Behringer thinks it could bring to market in the $500 street-price range–could they actually do it? Kitchen sink vs. teacup?
Plus: I don't really get what was/is so desirable about the Juno-106, on which the DM12's synth engine is based, in the first place. It's a pretty average novice synth at best.
The Roland Juno-106 is a slightly different beast with the KiwiTechnics upgrades installed; excluding the MKS-7 Super Quartet, there was never a proper rackmounted version, so the user experience is largely colored by the crap SysEx implementation, its pedestrian signal flow layout, and the noisy (yet characterful) stereo chorus effect.
That said–I much prefer the JX-3P, which gets you closer to Jupiter sound for such crazy little money (around $300 used, if you look hard enough) these days. Add the Kiwi upgrade and an external knobby controller (the Behringer one is quite good), and you're really pretty well set for a DCO-based, six-voice analogue polysynth. (And 61 keys!)
At six voices, you'd have to spend money to get to a Prophet '08 from that point, or to reach to a Prophet-6 or OB-6 to ascend to the next level.
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In fact, the Minilogue vs. DeepMind provides a perfect inflection point in that the VCO-based Minilogue sounds great with a minimal, modeled delay; the DeepMind, on the other hand, makes use of multi-voice unison and quad effects to flesh out its sound, while the basic, single-oscillator waveforms sound as sterile as you'd expect them to on a DCO-based unit.
Interesting that you bring up the Minilogue, but I would agree. It definitely does more with less gimmicks (although I don't perceive effects as gimmicks per se, which I hope I made clear before) and it would be interesting to see a slightly bigger version. The only problem I perceived about the delay though, is that it's really rather noisy.
The Roland Juno-106 is a slightly different beast with the KiwiTechnics upgrades installed; excluding the MKS-7 Super Quartet, there was never a proper rackmounted version, so the user experience is largely colored by the crap SysEx implementation, its pedestrian signal flow layout, and the noisy (yet characterful) stereo chorus effect.
Gotcha. I was just referring to the historical version if you like. Although I'm aware of the Kiwi upgrade, it's always a bit tricky to keep track with updates for devices one doesn't use, which is about the only excuse I have in this case.
That said–I much prefer the JX-3P, which gets you closer to Jupiter sound for such crazy little money (around $300 used, if you look hard enough) these days. Add the Kiwi upgrade and an external knobby controller (the Behringer one is quite good), and you're really pretty well set for a DCO-based, six-voice analogue polysynth. (And 61 keys!)
You can even find them quite often with the original controller. But yeah, the JX-3P definitely makes for a more interesting DCO synth.
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It's certainly a useful synth at this price point, yes. But I don't really regard the DM12 as a game changer, even if it may be advertised as such. Like Rich Hilton said on one SonicTalk episode: people act as if DSI haven't done it before.
Yeah, maybe DSI's instrument don't come with dozens of effects, but their synth engines within themselves have always been more powerful. Plus: I don't necessarily regard an effect section as an integral part of a synthesizer outside the ROMpler world. It can be and it is a part of sound design, yes. But particularly these days, most users have all that as plug-ins already if they're on a budget, or as hardware if they can afford it. From my perspective, that adds to the gimmicky character of the DM12.
And for live use, included effects might be practical, but the amount of drowned-in-effects-sounds I've heard so far, would only make sense in conjunction with a pretty decent PA system, a great live mixer (the person), and great overall acoustics, otherwise such sounds will only turn into mud on stage.
So the only thing that remains as being "game changing" is the price, but that within itself hasn't much to do with a synth engine's quality. It only says a lot about consuming and competition. Soundwise, I haven't heard anything from the DM12 that can't be done with other instruments. Plus: I don't really get what was/is so desirable about the Juno-106, on which the DM12's synth engine is based, in the first place. It's a pretty average novice synth at best.
I actually said the X32 was a game changer. :-)
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I actually said the X32 was a game changer. :-)
It sounded to me as if you said the DM12 was one as well. My bad.
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It sounded to me as if you said the DM12 was one as well. My bad.
Er, no. I never once said that in my post.
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It sounded to me as if you said the DM12 was one as well. My bad.
Er, no. I never once said that in my post.
That's why I said "my bad." I thought you were drawing parallels between the X32 and the DM12 that's all.
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The Module:
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Sweetwater demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhOsUBwb5no
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Sweetwater demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhOsUBwb5no
Unfortunately, the factory presets seem to exhibit that characteristically staid DCO temperament in voiced chords, which is a bit of a bummer, though at $999, it's probably a decent first analogue polysynth that fits the bill in 2017 in a manner similar manner to that of the Roland Juno-*6* some thirty(-five) years earlier.
Word from those I trust who have had their hands on a review / early production unit is that the keybed feels a little price-conscious (looks to be a Behringer-manufactured keybed?), but I suspect that it'd be cheap to replace as a repair part if that's the case.
That said - much as I have my complaints about the Korg Minilogue, it might ultimately represent better sonic value. But what do I know, anyway?
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I have to admit that I've become less and less interested in the DeepMind 12 during the coarse of time.
I think the instrument lacks reasonable balance. I think Uli said that it started off as a Juno 106 clone and then expanded into it's own thing. Well, you can really tell because I think several things seem like an afterthought when it comes to the overall design and features.
You can clearly see the Juno 106 layout of the panel. The second oscillator is, as far as I'm concerned, just a glorified sub oct generator. The display and the amount of menu diving that seem present is very discouraging, and the fact that they are using a control knob and single buttons for the menus make me think of rack mounted romplers in the 90's - Compare it to the Prophet 12 with it's buttons and four knobs associated with the OLED. It's like the stone age in comparison.
And then there's the whole feature balance. The DeepMind 12 lacks two full oscillators and cannot be tuned more than +/- 12 semi tones appart, but offer high quality effects, WiFi and augmented reality? And baked in a very strangely compromised hands on interface with quite horrible menu diving. Something went wrong in the conceptual design process.
My only hope is that since this is Behringers first venture into hardware synthesizers that they've learned a couple of things on the way and that the next product they do (if any) will be designed with more afterthought put into the functionality and UX.
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The second oscillator is, as far as I'm concerned, just a glorified sub oct generator. The display and the amount of menu diving that seem present is very discouraging, and the fact that they are using a control knob and single buttons for the menus make me think of rack mounted romplers in the 90's - Compare it to the Prophet 12 with it's buttons and four knobs associated with the OLED. It's like the stone age in comparison.
And then there's the whole feature balance. The DeepMind 12 lacks two full oscillators and cannot be tuned more than +/- 12 semi tones appart, but offer high quality effects, WiFi and augmented reality? And baked in a very strangely compromised hands on interface with quite horrible menu diving. Something went wrong in the conceptual design process.
Very good points–and not unusual for Behringer.
Sometimes I think that they're one paper wall away from a genius move, only to find that they've only wandered into the wrong room by mistake, so to speak; the XR-Series mixers are a perfect example of this (and I still own one of the old DDX3216 digital mixers, which squarely falls into the brilliant-but-flawed category).
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GEOSynths Demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDc9-Dz2XtI
There's not a lot in this demonstration, but it's the best I've heard the instrument sound so far. The pads sound a bit like the PEK.
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You can clearly see the Juno 106 layout of the panel. The second oscillator is, as far as I'm concerned, just a glorified sub oct generator. The display and the amount of menu diving that seem present is very discouraging, and the fact that they are using a control knob and single buttons for the menus make me think of rack mounted romplers in the 90's - Compare it to the Prophet 12 with it's buttons and four knobs associated with the OLED. It's like the stone age in comparison.
And then there's the whole feature balance. The DeepMind 12 lacks two full oscillators and cannot be tuned more than +/- 12 semi tones appart, but offer high quality effects, WiFi and augmented reality? And baked in a very strangely compromised hands on interface with quite horrible menu diving. Something went wrong in the conceptual design process.
I'd stopped paying much attention to the DM12 until recently when it started getting into the hands of a few users. I've heard enough demos now to think it can be programmed to sound pretty good and with more flexibility than I expected. Also had a read of the manual and it looks as if both oscillators can be set to different ranges (16', 8', 4') so it should be possible to get them more than an octave apart.
I'm still a little sceptical of the menu diving and reliance on the display. I think I'll only know if its a hindrance when I get to try one sometime. I keep thinking it has the 2 LFO, 3 ENV and mod matrix features that I've really missed on simpler synths (P6, System-8 etc.) and at a price that doesn't punish the wallet too much.
Still think I'm more in the market for a desktop module, especially if the keys aren't all that. Any more keyboard synths here will break the ergonomics of the room anyway. :)
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Yeah, I saw that I was wrong re the feet" which is good of course. Still not enamored in the menu diving aspect. I think the vangelis style lead shows some potential.
Some more GEOSynth demonstrations.
Vangelis style lead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnvimLqMTBk
10 custom patches (no talking): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-dTXFVKvqM
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Still not impressed, rather bewildered by the hype. It seems to me that price obviously means more to people than content.
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Still not impressed, rather bewildered by the hype. It seems to me that price obviously means more to people than content.
I don't think the hype is that strange, it's an affordable instrument that gives you a lot of bang for your buck after all. I think it's a shame that you make an assumption that price would mean more to people than content just because you don't like it. Tastes differ after all, and I have a hard time believing that anyone would hold on to one if they didn't like the basic tone of the instrument.
I've been considering the DeepMind 12 as a potential addition, but I haven't heard or seen anything that would sway me. In contrast to your price remark, I am considering other more expensive instruments as well - because both their UX and tone appeal more to me. :)
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Still not impressed, rather bewildered by the hype. It seems to me that price obviously means more to people than content.
I don't think the hype is that strange, it's an affordable instrument that gives you a lot of bang for your buck after all. I think it's a shame that you make an assumption that price would mean more to people than content just because you don't like it. Tastes differ after all, and I have a hard time believing that anyone would hold on to one if they didn't like the basic tone of the instrument.
There's basically only one thing I don't like about Uli Behringer in general, and that's his pseudo-altruistic bla-bla and his customer suck-up gestures on forums like GS. Some might perceive it as a super nice guy image, I'd call it bad taste, a lack of decency (especially with regard to his cloning plans), and a reason for vicarious embarrassment. - There are certainly more elegant ways to behave like a prostitute. But that's only what I would describe as an obnoxious business practice, just like the aim to clone every classic there's ever been. Yawn - yet another 808, 909, etc. It's a pure mass market strategy concerning things that are designed for mass consumption, I get it. It's just not very exciting.
As for the DM12: I personally don't care about internal effects, so that side of the instrument could be there or anywhere in my view. It will serve its purpose for the live use, yes, but at the same time you have to be rather careful with especially reverbs in that context, as they can easily turn the sound into mud and be a nightmare for the front of the house mixer. I emphasize the latter because a vast number of sounds that I've heard in the demos are drenched in effects like there's no tomorrow. What I've heard dry on the other side, sounds pretty average, not bad, but also not outstanding. The synth engine in itself is not particularly compelling, rather what you would expect to get at this price point. In fact, the only interesting thing I could find is the various ways in which you can adjust the envelope curves - exponentially, logarithmically, and linear. Okay, that's cool. All the rest looks like an instrument that became more and more crammed over time - in other words: badly designed (at least if you consider the ability to know when to say stop a precondition for well laid-out instruments or tools in general). But what was this synth supposed to hark back to in the first place? A Juno-106. There is already my first question mark, as I simply don't get what is so desirable about the Juno-106 in the first place, except for being a piece of nostalgia for those, who couldn't afford anything better back in the day. So basically the whole concept of the DM12 is bewildering to me from the get-go.
As for price over content: I'm not sitting on a high horse when it comes to affordable instruments. There are lots of great affordable instruments, many of which have been released over the past couple of years: from the MiniBrute to the Volcas and beyond. I get the impression though, that the price of the DM12 becomes a sort of knockout argument in most reviews, as if it was a means to an end already. And to me this seems to be the only true piece of innovation there is about this synth. While that may be exciting or interesting from an economical perspective, I fail to see what's so exciting about the DM12 in terms of synthesis though - especially since a Prophet '08 can still run circles around it.
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I appreciate your clarification. :)
I'm not going to pretend that I don't agree with many of your points as I've made similar assessment on several of them.
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Sorry for the rant though. It's just that I find this Behringer guy hard to swallow, as his whole attitude is so annoying to me (must be the charming mix between insurance agent and self-proclaimed guru). I think it would be easier for me to take the DM12 for what it is if they had announced it without all the hubbub and all the references. And that's something I miss about Behringer: Just putting something together that's rather unique, not based on the whole retro hype or anything like that. If it was more like a suddden announcement, as in "Hey, we've put together an affordable 12 voice poly. It has its limitations but it's still a pretty decent package we think", that would have been different. But instead Behringer and almost all the reviewers act as if they've reinvented the wheel, and that's something I don't get.
I still remember the first SonicTalk episode, in which the DM12's announcement was discussed, and a rather unimpressed Rich Hilton said something like, "Dave Smith has been doing it for years". So that's basically where I'm coming from: "It's just one amongst many, so please calm down everyone."
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Sorry for the rant though.
Paul, as far as rants go, that was a masterpiece. It belongs in the Ranter's Hall of Fame as a model for all who would like to rant. It contains wit, sarcasm, indignation, and disgust. A masterpiece of rantism.
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...especially since a Prophet '08 can still run circles around it.
Oh, and thanks for that. ;D
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:o . o O ( copycat newcomers )
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Just in case you ever fancied a job at Behringer: https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Overview/Working-at-Behringer-EI_IE334438.11,20.htm?countryRedirect=true
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A decent variety of sounds, and an embarrassing bit of maintenance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbQsago-Jdw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RopzRGcuAeI
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The same thing happens with the Kronos but in the opposite direction with the white keys contacting the front.
When transporting it you need to pack some material like cardboard between the white keys and the front bar.
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That's a tad embarrassing for a manufacturer, isn't it? I mean, treating an instrument with care or having to perform an occasional act of maintenance is one thing, but this is something different. It's a basic design flaw. I hope Behringer fixes it.
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I guess though that Behringer will fix the problem in upcoming revisions, Korg never did.
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This seems like a pull-out-all-the-stops type synthesizer. It's wedded to densely-applied effects. I guess it suits ambient type electronica.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rty0C0lmveI
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You can clearly see the Juno 106 layout of the panel. The second oscillator is, as far as I'm concerned, just a glorified sub oct generator. The display and the amount of menu diving that seem present is very discouraging, and the fact that they are using a control knob and single buttons for the menus make me think of rack mounted romplers in the 90's - Compare it to the Prophet 12 with it's buttons and four knobs associated with the OLED. It's like the stone age in comparison.
And then there's the whole feature balance. The DeepMind 12 lacks two full oscillators and cannot be tuned more than +/- 12 semi tones appart, but offer high quality effects, WiFi and augmented reality? And baked in a very strangely compromised hands on interface with quite horrible menu diving. Something went wrong in the conceptual design process.
I'd stopped paying much attention to the DM12 until recently when it started getting into the hands of a few users. I've heard enough demos now to think it can be programmed to sound pretty good and with more flexibility than I expected. Also had a read of the manual and it looks as if both oscillators can be set to different ranges (16', 8', 4') so it should be possible to get them more than an octave apart.
I'm still a little sceptical of the menu diving and reliance on the display. I think I'll only know if its a hindrance when I get to try one sometime. I keep thinking it has the 2 LFO, 3 ENV and mod matrix features that I've really missed on simpler synths (P6, System-8 etc.) and at a price that doesn't punish the wallet too much.
Still think I'm more in the market for a desktop module, especially if the keys aren't all that. Any more keyboard synths here will break the ergonomics of the room anyway. :)
After much deliberation on the matter I just got one. Here's the scoop from spending about 10 hours with it now:
Everything works. Shipped from Sweetwater in two days-for free. I update OS to 1.03, right away, but did so simply as precaution rather than need. I can say that I was a bit nervous about purchasing this- being new and not terribly good press on it. With exception of Nick's positive reviews from Sonic State, the other videos and talk I heard out there would not have convinced me much. But I'm one of those wierdos that actually loves my Berhinger mixers so I figured I'd give our friends across the pond a try.
The unit is very well made. There is no wobbly knobs- not even close to being an issue. Keys feel good. The LCD display is not as grainy as I expected. Nice heavy feel to it....probably because it is heavy! weighs more than any my other synths. Even has a fan aboard (I cannot hear it) which is good for nostalgic electronics I guess.
The manual is very wordy at 136 pages and has no index. I printed one off so you will need a rack of paper. They did not even include a CD manual which I think is really lame.
I was able to find my way around pretty quickly, and any previous synth owner would probably as well. I simply used the manual to look up questions I have about features as I go (otherwise I'd still be reading). My biggest reservation about getting this unit was menu diving. This turns out is not to be issue for me at all and is much less than I thought. In find the interface very cleverly laid out. The screen is an absolute must for some of the deeper features. Effects are quite nice and rival the Virus effects which seems to have been the standard thus far.
Sound banks hold like 1000+ patches. Quite peculiar that none were left open for USER sounds so to save your own sounds need to over wright existing sounds. This is easy to do. I wish I could delete all the existing patches and make all slots basic patches. Anyway...the good news is that there is only like 20-30 presets worth keeping. Most are just the usual obligatory generic noise that manufactures seem to add (IMO). Ironically what is strangely absent from the presets -is what this instrument shines at.
Fuseball - I should mention that you can indeed set oscillators more than 12 semi apart.
Basic patch is easy to set. But here's the catch, and I hope it's a resolvable fix in some future update. If you set just osc 1 to sawtooth and then play more than two notes at once there is a strange cyclic clicking. Very noticeable with filter wide open. I tried everything to squelch it: recalibrating, making sure no other mod exists, no effects etc... The good news is that this is avoidable and does NOT happen if you simply create your own basic patch. I took an existing patch and zeroed everything out, saved it as "basic patch". Clicking no longer an issue. So the issue from what I can tell is limited to their on-board basic patch.
I'm not a big apeggiator user, but it has quite a few nice patters. The sequencer is different than lets say a PO8 or OB6. Not useful like if you wanna just play in a pattern for example. But I think it is really his meant more as an additional mod source- for which its powerful. Nevertheless I figured out how to dial in tones and quantitize them as notes. One you have a sequence set up you have to set it into mod slot to make it work. I feel this step could be eliminated in some future update.
Bottom line: I really like the sounds I'm getting with this. As a pad monster this will excel and allows me to sell my Virus Snow which I hardly use due to the menu diving. As for PWM pianos and such I'm also having some good success and getting really pretty sounds. I will share some soon.
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Interview with Uli:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQpsYTynFlo
Personally, I far prefer the brunette....
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A video of few patches I did on this instrument.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7es4ZvYZIA&feature=youtu.be