The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Other Hardware/Software => Topic started by: Razmo on April 25, 2017, 02:10:27 AM
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Yes... please give us a hybrid sampler, something that will compete in it's own way with the coming Waldorf Quantum Synthesizer.
There are things I do not like about Waldorf products... they usualy have crap FX onboard, and the Quantum will only have 8 voices, which I find to be too few... With the REV2 out at the price it has, I think it should be possible to make a hybrid sampler keyboard with 16 Curtis filters as well, something I'd really like to see.
What I'd like to see such a keyboard feature is:
8/16 voice options like the REV2 (Curtis filters/amplifiers would be fine, and probably more cost effective)
Minimum 2 sample oscillators per voice
ø
A/B Layer configuration, so you can use two voices for stereo applications
Built in FX like on the REV2
a "Character section" like on the P12, but with the added abillity to do different algorithmic stuff between the two oscillators (like FM, AM, and other crazy sample mangling stuff etc.)
Granular & wavetable sampling playback capability of the oscillators
SD card storage of everything (supporting Gigabytes of storage space)
Minimum 64MB of sample RAM per "project"
Big display for editing, and an intuitive user interface that inspire you to actually USE IT, instead of using software editors.
The usual comprehensive modulation matrix of course
.............
One thing I'd like to see in a sampler is this: Make it possible for an oscillator to continuously play another sample on each keypress, chosen randomly among a set list of samples, but never playing the same sample twice in a row... the reason for this feature is, that it would give some really nice possibilities with both percussion and instruments alike... one of the major problems with samplers is that they sound static because they always fire the same sample... with this technique, you could have for example, 10 different sampled versions of an analog kick drum, or an acoustic instrument, and have every key hit sound a little different... would make the sound much more organic and dynamic.
well... I guess that was just a little dream written down here... I hope I'll see such a device some day... :)
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You know...I agree with most of that....except I feel it shouldn't have a huge screen on it. I don't know but I just dislike synths with large screens on them. Probably why I don't gravitate to workstations too much. I'd much rather have a basic screen like an Emulator II. Let your ears be the guide instead of a screen. Have everything on the front panel. Loop buttons, small 10 channel mixer on the front etc That's just me tho.
I would also say the sampler should be multitimbral and have an on board 10 track sequencer with the ability expand tracks via computer should you desire it.
The sampling also should be instantaneous and be like the Korg Microsampler where you can either use the sampling capabilities as standalone or with a computer.
Like the Synclavier, Emulators etc I think it should be a synth where you can use it with or without a computer and generally only rely on the computer to do fine editing and programming should you need to. But can easily be operational without one too.
I feel the device should avoid being just another workstation and approach it from the idea of a sampler with a P6 style layout and with a layout of a Synclavier or Emulator instead of a basic screen in the middle, few sliders and buttons here and there and the usual workstation look.
(https://jimatwood.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/emulatorii.jpg)
(http://120years.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Synclavier-II-sp.jpg)
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You know...I agree with most of that....except I feel it shouldn't have a huge screen on it. I don't know but I just dislike synths with large screens on them. Probably why I don't gravitate to workstations too much. I'd much rather have a basic screen like an Emulator II. Let your ears be the guide instead of a screen. Have everything on the front panel. Loop buttons, small 10 channel mixer on the front etc That's just me tho.
I would also say the sampler should be multitimbral and have an on board 10 track sequencer with the ability expand tracks via computer should you desire it.
The sampling also should be instantaneous and be like the Korg Microsampler where you can either use the sampling capabilities as standalone or with a computer.
Like the Synclavier, Emulators etc I think it should be a synth where you can use it with or without a computer and generally only rely on the computer to do fine editing and programming should you need to. But can easily be operational without one too.
I feel the device should avoid being just another workstation and approach it from the idea of a sampler with a P6 style layout and with a layout of a Synclavier or Emulator instead of a basic screen in the middle, few sliders and buttons here and there and the usual workstation look.
(https://jimatwood.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/emulatorii.jpg)
(http://120years.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Synclavier-II-sp.jpg)
I do not mind that the screen has the same size as the P12 for example... the point is that it should be a graphical display, because you would want to edit samples on it, and see the waveform display... the screen simply has to be big enough to be able to see what you're doing... having to rely on a computer for waveform editing misses the point, also because transfering samples will become tedious if you have to change the SD card between computer and sampler all the time... the most basic editing functions like cut, paste, truncate, loop editing (with zoom!), normalize etc. has to be there on the display in some way.
I don't care if it's touchscreen or anything... as long as there are controls to make the editing fast and intuitive... a good look on the new Elektron Digitakt display and editing is the way I want it to be.
I'm all with you on the knobs per function, but I do not want flexibility and deepness of the engine to go down, just because all and everything has to be on the front panel, so some menu-diving is necessary... the way the P12 is laid out with buttons for different segments is probably the best I've seen, when you still want some depth to the engine functions.
Also... minimum 5 octaves FATAR keybed!!!! very VERY important! :D
I'm with you also, when it comes to the approach... it should aim at being a hybrid first, but also offer something other samplers do not, otherwise you could as well get an old Akai, E-mu or Kurzweil... competing with either E-MU or Kurzweil would probably be impossible anyway, so the focus must be on the analog aspect, and the performance part as a standalone keyboard sampler.
I just feel that a hybrid sampler is one of the few directions DSI still needs to go... they only briefly touched the technology with the Tempest, but that's a totally different type of instrument, and was only a ROMpler with it's samples.
Dave has made a sampler before, so he could easily make an update, and even call it a "Prophet", as I believe his earlier sampler was called Prophet 2000!? or was it something similar?
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That would be an excellent project for a collaboration between DSI and Dave Rossum. They could name it the Dave^2.
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That would be an excellent project for a collaboration between DSI and Dave Rossum. They could name it the Dave^2.
or Cameron Jones.
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Hmm, dunno whether a keyboard-based sampler would make sense in 2017, unless it did something particularly unique from a real-time tonal sample manipulation (or digital synthesis, in general) perspective.
The computer workflow just seems sensible, once you build more complicated, layered instruments; as well, it takes the software element out of the mix, which is clearly a major project component of an embedded music hardware device.
Of course, there's the issue of the Pioneer DJ Toraiz SP-16, with which it might overlap a fair bit.
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Hmm, dunno whether a keyboard-based sampler would make sense in 2017, unless it did something particularly unique from a real-time tonal sample manipulation (or digital synthesis, in general) perspective.
The computer workflow just seems sensible, once you build more complicated, layered instruments; as well, it takes the software element out of the mix, which is clearly a major project component of an embedded music hardware device.
Of course, there's the issue of the Pioneer DJ Toraiz SP-16, with which it might overlap a fair bit.
I mean monophonic instruments don't really make sense in 2017 either but there is a market. Honestly, a sampler with a hands on analog type interface would be so different that it may actually help instead of hinder it. Especially if it's a powerhouse. The idea of a workstation but a hands on approach gets me excited just contemplating about it.
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You know...I agree with most of that....except I feel it shouldn't have a huge screen on it. I don't know but I just dislike synths with large screens on them. Probably why I don't gravitate to workstations too much. I'd much rather have a basic screen like an Emulator II. Let your ears be the guide instead of a screen. Have everything on the front panel. Loop buttons, small 10 channel mixer on the front etc That's just me tho.
I would also say the sampler should be multitimbral and have an on board 10 track sequencer with the ability expand tracks via computer should you desire it.
The sampling also should be instantaneous and be like the Korg Microsampler where you can either use the sampling capabilities as standalone or with a computer.
Like the Synclavier, Emulators etc I think it should be a synth where you can use it with or without a computer and generally only rely on the computer to do fine editing and programming should you need to. But can easily be operational without one too.
I feel the device should avoid being just another workstation and approach it from the idea of a sampler with a P6 style layout and with a layout of a Synclavier or Emulator instead of a basic screen in the middle, few sliders and buttons here and there and the usual workstation look.
(https://jimatwood.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/emulatorii.jpg)
(http://120years.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Synclavier-II-sp.jpg)
I do not mind that the screen has the same size as the P12 for example... the point is that it should be a graphical display, because you would want to edit samples on it, and see the waveform display... the screen simply has to be big enough to be able to see what you're doing... having to rely on a computer for waveform editing misses the point, also because transfering samples will become tedious if you have to change the SD card between computer and sampler all the time... the most basic editing functions like cut, paste, truncate, loop editing (with zoom!), normalize etc. has to be there on the display in some way.
I don't care if it's touchscreen or anything... as long as there are controls to make the editing fast and intuitive... a good look on the new Elektron Digitakt display and editing is the way I want it to be.
I'm all with you on the knobs per function, but I do not want flexibility and deepness of the engine to go down, just because all and everything has to be on the front panel, so some menu-diving is necessary... the way the P12 is laid out with buttons for different segments is probably the best I've seen, when you still want some depth to the engine functions.
Also... minimum 5 octaves FATAR keybed!!!! very VERY important! :D
I'm with you also, when it comes to the approach... it should aim at being a hybrid first, but also offer something other samplers do not, otherwise you could as well get an old Akai, E-mu or Kurzweil... competing with either E-MU or Kurzweil would probably be impossible anyway, so the focus must be on the analog aspect, and the performance part as a standalone keyboard sampler.
I just feel that a hybrid sampler is one of the few directions DSI still needs to go... they only briefly touched the technology with the Tempest, but that's a totally different type of instrument, and was only a ROMpler with it's samples.
Dave has made a sampler before, so he could easily make an update, and even call it a "Prophet", as I believe his earlier sampler was called Prophet 2000!? or was it something similar?
Yup Prophet 2000 was Sequential's sampler.
Is E-Mu even still active? I tried to get one of their Longboards and couldn't find them anywhere.
But yeah I have the Korg Microsampler and I love it, I use it for most of my sample based stuff and it's super fast. I think a concept like that but with analog filters, more dials and larger 5 octave Fatar keybed might be in the direction this should go.
http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/korg-microsampler
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No... E-MU got snatched up by Creative Labs long ago, to get Dave Rossum's tech knowhow for themselves in their soundcard developments... since then the company more or less fell apart, with the Audio systems (1616m 1212m) being the last we saw of them.
Today Dave Rossum is not with Creative Labs anymore though, and he is creating eurorack stuff in his own name... currently I think he's about to release the Z-Plane filter as a Eurorack module... but I do not think he will be back in sampler business.
It's true that the old hardware sampler market sort of died after software samplers came along, but I still believe that samplers have a right in the hardware market, they just have to be performance oriented in a way software samplers can never be, and one such is definitely the analog aspects of it... you would need to think out of the box for such a device to succeed... nonetheless it has happened a few times with success (Roland V-Synth for instance)... and the Quantum that is in the horizon is another such device.
Comparing it to the Toraiz on the other hand (in my opinion) is like comparing apples and oranges, they are two different types of machines that would be used in two completely different ways as performance oriented machines... they don't compare even the slightest in my opinion... the Toraiz is for groove making, while a keyboard sampler would be mainly for performing with instruments.
I'm just a bit tired of keyboard synthesizers at the moment offering only static waveforms that you have to sit and sounddesign over for hours before you get something you like... this is one of the cool things about a sample... you can swap them out quickly and get something new and inspiring really fast, seeing the rest of the soundpath as a "template" (VCF, VCA, Modulation etc.) ... just imagine having an arsenal of both short and long looped "textures" as your samples, dial in a "Pad Template" or "Lead Template", and then just scroll thru the samples on an oscillator... you get quick new sounds that are useful pretty quickly! ... with standard oscillators there is just the usual square, saw etc... maybe some wavetables, but to get any interesting movement you need to spend minutes to hours on modulating these before they get anything near interesting... this is not so with a sample instead of a "stiff" oscillator :) ... it will also give players with less sound design skills an easier day of making something useful... quickly... maybe if the sampler was even build in a way where presets were seen as "templates", and the sample oscillators was readily available for changing by scrolling thru a library on the SD card...
This is what I want... something fast, something intuitive, something that will give you instant gratification in a split second... something a performer might also like when on stage for example. The point is, that when most modulation is inherent in the sample itself, then templates get much more apparent in their useability... I do this all the time with both my V-Synth XT and E5000 Ultra, and it works! ... and it saves hours of time in sound design.
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Today Dave Rossum is not with Creative Labs anymore though, and he is creating eurorack stuff in his own name... currently I think he's about to release the Z-Plane filter as a Eurorack module... but I do not think he will be back in sampler business.
He's back in sampler business. I was just at Superbooth and had the pleasure of Dave demonstrating the Assimil8or to me amongst his various other modules. It's not fully done yet, (all main functions work, menu needs to be updated) but he's expecting to release it later this year. It has a really nasty, but musical bit crusher and can do phase modulation between samples, which also sounds really musical.
Here's a video by Sonicstate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvYvJnpckSI
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I mean monophonic instruments don't really make sense in 2017 either but there is a market. Honestly, a sampler with a hands on analog type interface would be so different that it may actually help instead of hinder it. Especially if it's a powerhouse. The idea of a workstation but a hands on approach gets me excited just contemplating about it.
Does the market really need an E-mu Emax I or Ensoniq Mirage replacement in 2017?
Or is the intention simply a hybrid synthesizer with loads of digital front-end sound generation & processing, in the style of a Hartmann Neuron? That's not really a sampler, but a digital synth with some analogue processing....
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Today Dave Rossum is not with Creative Labs anymore though, and he is creating eurorack stuff in his own name... currently I think he's about to release the Z-Plane filter as a Eurorack module... but I do not think he will be back in sampler business.
He's back in sampler business. I was just at Superbooth and had the pleasure of Dave demonstrating the Assimil8or to me amongst his various other modules. It's not fully done yet, (all main functions work, menu needs to be updated) but he's expecting to release it later this year. It has a really nasty, but musical bit crusher and can do phase modulation between samples, which also sounds really musical.
Here's a video by Sonicstate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvYvJnpckSI
Cool... but it really does not compete with a fully fledged keyboard sampler... he is mainly into eurorack as I see it :)
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It's true that the old hardware sampler market sort of died after software samplers came along, but I still believe that samplers have a right in the hardware market, they just have to be performance oriented in a way software samplers can never be, and one such is definitely the analog aspects of it... you would need to think out of the box for such a device to succeed... nonetheless it has happened a few times with success (Roland V-Synth for instance)... and the Quantum that is in the horizon is another such device.
I also had a chat with Rolf from Waldorf at Superbooth. You will be able to use the granular engine for all standard multi-sampling purposes. It won't be as powerful as Kontakt in that regard, but should get all traditional hardware sampler needs covered. You'll be able to load as many samples as you like into the Quantum via SD card.
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I mean monophonic instruments don't really make sense in 2017 either but there is a market. Honestly, a sampler with a hands on analog type interface would be so different that it may actually help instead of hinder it. Especially if it's a powerhouse. The idea of a workstation but a hands on approach gets me excited just contemplating about it.
Does the market really need an E-mu Emax I or Ensoniq Mirage replacement in 2017?
Or is the intention simply a hybrid synthesizer with loads of digital front-end sound generation & processing, in the style of a Hartmann Neuron? That's not really a sampler, but a digital synth with some analogue processing....
No it's not a "sampler" that I want... it's a Keyboard Sampling SYNTHESIZER... there is a difference there... you need to be able to manipulate the samples, but all or most older samplers from E-MU or Kurzweil also had this ability, so you certainly would need to come up with something that works in a different way... more hands on and performer oriented... also, one of the major interest I've got is to get sampling synthesis combined with analog VCF/VCA/Distortion/FX technology... there are not many that combine this unless it's from the 80's full of quirks etc...
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just imagine having an arsenal of both short and long looped "textures" as your samples, dial in a "Pad Template" or "Lead Template", and then just scroll thru the samples on an oscillator... you get quick new sounds that are useful pretty quickly! ... with standard oscillators there is just the usual square, saw etc... maybe some wavetables, but to get any interesting movement you need to spend minutes to hours on modulating these before they get anything near interesting... this is not so with a sample instead of a "stiff" oscillator :) ... it will also give players with less sound design skills an easier day of making something useful... quickly
Not sure why this would necessitate a hardware device, when a copy of Omnisphere would accomplish the same thing. It just reminds me of one of these:
(http://www.rfidjournal.com/lib/x/a/assets/2009/06/4967-3.jpg)
At what point are you not simply embedding a proprietary PC engine into a synthesizer chassis, along with its concomitant issues of maintenance / upgradability / constrained processing power?
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It's true that the old hardware sampler market sort of died after software samplers came along, but I still believe that samplers have a right in the hardware market, they just have to be performance oriented in a way software samplers can never be, and one such is definitely the analog aspects of it... you would need to think out of the box for such a device to succeed... nonetheless it has happened a few times with success (Roland V-Synth for instance)... and the Quantum that is in the horizon is another such device.
I also had a chat with Rolf from Waldorf at Superbooth. You will be able to use the granular engine for all standard multi-sampling purposes. It won't be as powerful as Kontakt in that regard, but should get all traditional hardware sampler needs covered. You'll be able to load as many samples as you like into the Quantum via SD card.
Sure.. that was also the impression I got looking at the videos... and it's dead certain, that unless DSI makes something similar with more polyphony, then I will get a Quantum when it's out :) there can be no doubt about that... I'm just fearing it's sport the usual horrible built in FX that Waldorf are known for :/
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Today Dave Rossum is not with Creative Labs anymore though, and he is creating eurorack stuff in his own name... currently I think he's about to release the Z-Plane filter as a Eurorack module... but I do not think he will be back in sampler business.
He's back in sampler business. I was just at Superbooth and had the pleasure of Dave demonstrating the Assimil8or to me amongst his various other modules. It's not fully done yet, (all main functions work, menu needs to be updated) but he's expecting to release it later this year. It has a really nasty, but musical bit crusher and can do phase modulation between samples, which also sounds really musical.
Here's a video by Sonicstate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvYvJnpckSI
Cool... but it really does not compete with a fully fledged keyboard sampler... he is mainly into eurorack as I see it :)
Well, Eurorack and software is where most innovation takes place.
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just imagine having an arsenal of both short and long looped "textures" as your samples, dial in a "Pad Template" or "Lead Template", and then just scroll thru the samples on an oscillator... you get quick new sounds that are useful pretty quickly! ... with standard oscillators there is just the usual square, saw etc... maybe some wavetables, but to get any interesting movement you need to spend minutes to hours on modulating these before they get anything near interesting... this is not so with a sample instead of a "stiff" oscillator :) ... it will also give players with less sound design skills an easier day of making something useful... quickly
Not sure why this would necessitate a hardware device, when a copy of Omnisphere would accomplish the same thing. It just reminds me of one of these:
(http://www.rfidjournal.com/lib/x/a/assets/2009/06/4967-3.jpg)
Because Omnisphere is not a selfcontained keybord, that you can bring with you on the stage, and it has no analog parts, it's a software synthesizer... if software was enough in a DAW box, then all the resurgence of analogs and hybrids we see from both DSI and others would not have been would they? ... why is it that people find it OK to see new analogs and hybrids, when they can still get it in software? ... why should it be any different just because it is a sampler!?
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Today Dave Rossum is not with Creative Labs anymore though, and he is creating eurorack stuff in his own name... currently I think he's about to release the Z-Plane filter as a Eurorack module... but I do not think he will be back in sampler business.
He's back in sampler business. I was just at Superbooth and had the pleasure of Dave demonstrating the Assimil8or to me amongst his various other modules. It's not fully done yet, (all main functions work, menu needs to be updated) but he's expecting to release it later this year. It has a really nasty, but musical bit crusher and can do phase modulation between samples, which also sounds really musical.
Here's a video by Sonicstate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvYvJnpckSI
Cool... but it really does not compete with a fully fledged keyboard sampler... he is mainly into eurorack as I see it :)
Well, Eurorack and software is where most innovation takes place.
Sure... but that does not take away the need for a keyboard sampler as I see it... Why should sampling only be for Eurorack and software? ... then why not completely diss all analog keyboard synths like the P6, OB6, REV2 etc? ... there are more than enough software that does the same? ... also, eurorack usually is not very polyphony friendly... and it is directed at a different kind of user than a stage performer... at least that type of performer I'm thinking would want a keyboard sampler synthesizer :D
I know for sure that I would want one... and I should be baffled if others would not want such a thing as well ;)
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I'd rather see something that connects to a computer (or tablet) for deep-editing purposes (i.e., for building a voice model a la Kyma), but can be used standalone–I'd want such a device to function as a drum machine (pads) or synthesizer (keys) first and foremost, not simply as a controller a la Maschine. Keep the device interface knobby / simple / musical.
The risk, though, is that you end up with a fancy ROMpler with analogue filters, should someone decide that they don't care to go deeper. The presets would tend to stagnate over time, and you'd end up with a clichéd sound that would need to disappear from the public's consciousness in the manner of a Roland D-50.
Alternately, a SampleCell-style PCIe card (or USB-based outboard chassis) with analogue filters and (multiple) audio outputs would be pretty cool, maybe as a modular counterpart to the above instruments. This would allow you to add voices in an all-computer environment, or (as standalone box) to expand your existing keyboard setup as a slave device (a la Poly Evolver).
I still own a Muse Receptor, which I loved at the time for its self-contained approach (ex E-mu folks were involved in the design), but also its ability to go deeper (VST editing). It just never caught on / was ahead of its time / was constrained by hardware expandability / noisy fan + HDD, etc.
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I'd rather see something that connects to a computer for deep-editing purposes (i.e., for building a voice model a la Kyma), but can be used standalone–I'd want such a device to function as a drum machine (pads) or synthesizer (keys) first and foremost. Keep the device interface knobby / simple / musical.
The risk, though, is that you end up with a fancy ROMpler with analogue filters, should someone decide that they don't care to go deeper. The sounds would stagnate over time, and you'd end up with a clichéd sound.
Alternately, a SampleCell-style PCIe card (or USB-based outboard chassis) with analogue filters would be pretty cool, maybe as a modular counterpart to the above instruments. This would allow you to add voices in an all-computer environment, or to expand your existing keyboard setup as a slave device (a la Poly Evolver).
Well, we all have our dreams about what we would like... mine is a Sampler Keyboard Synthesizer like I described :D ... luckily, if DSI do not want to compete with the Quantum, I'll just get that one instead... just really would have seen 16 voices on that thing... but I guess 8 will have to be enough then.
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Sure... but that does not take away the need for a keyboard sampler as I see it... Why should sampling only be for Eurorack and software? ... then why not completely diss all analog keyboard synths like the P6, OB6, REV2 etc? ... there are more than enough software that does the same? ... also, eurorack usually is not very polyphony friendly... and it is directed at a different kind of user than a stage performer... at least that type of performer I'm thinking would want a keyboard sampler synthesizer :D
I know for sure that I would want one... and I should be baffled if others would not want such a thing as well ;)
I didn't mean to play out one against the other. There's enough space for both. I was just saying that these days most innovative moves take place in either Eurorack or software. And processing power as well as flexible upgradeability make software a tough competitor in the realm of advanced sampling.
Also worth mentioning: The Assimil8or is 8 times multitimbral. One could also technically combine it with Doepfer's new polyphonic USB/MIDI to CV/gate interface for paraphonic purposes.
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Hey Razmo, what are your thoughts on the Korg Microsampler? I think somehow expanding on it might be where this idea is headed. Instant gratification and instant editing.
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I'd rather see something that connects to a computer (or tablet) for deep-editing purposes (i.e., for building a voice model a la Kyma), but can be used standalone–I'd want such a device to function as a drum machine (pads) or synthesizer (keys) first and foremost, not simply as a controller a la Maschine. Keep the device interface knobby / simple / musical.
The risk, though, is that you end up with a fancy ROMpler with analogue filters, should someone decide that they don't care to go deeper. The presets would tend to stagnate over time, and you'd end up with a clichéd sound that would need to disappear from the public's consciousness in the manner of a Roland D-50.
Alternately, a SampleCell-style PCIe card (or USB-based outboard chassis) with analogue filters and (multiple) audio outputs would be pretty cool, maybe as a modular counterpart to the above instruments. This would allow you to add voices in an all-computer environment, or (as standalone box) to expand your existing keyboard setup as a slave device (a la Poly Evolver).
I still own a Muse Receptor, which I loved at the time for its self-contained approach (ex E-mu folks were involved in the design), but also its ability to go deeper (VST editing). It just never caught on / was ahead of its time / was constrained by hardware expandability / noisy fan + HDD, etc.
Perhaps the Lo-Fi Rompler sound is exactly why people lust after Fairlights and Emulators. Does it sound dated? Meh, nor more so than the Tom Sawyer filter sweep on an analog synth but people want things for a specific reason. Old fuzz pedals, old amps, old guitars all sound "Dated" but perhaps that's the sound the player wants. Hell, people here (including myself) want a new DX to be released but to some people the FM piano is an awfully dated sound.
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I'd rather see something that connects to a computer (or tablet) for deep-editing purposes (i.e., for building a voice model a la Kyma), but can be used standalone–I'd want such a device to function as a drum machine (pads) or synthesizer (keys) first and foremost, not simply as a controller a la Maschine. Keep the device interface knobby / simple / musical.
The risk, though, is that you end up with a fancy ROMpler with analogue filters, should someone decide that they don't care to go deeper. The presets would tend to stagnate over time, and you'd end up with a clichéd sound that would need to disappear from the public's consciousness in the manner of a Roland D-50.
Alternately, a SampleCell-style PCIe card (or USB-based outboard chassis) with analogue filters and (multiple) audio outputs would be pretty cool, maybe as a modular counterpart to the above instruments. This would allow you to add voices in an all-computer environment, or (as standalone box) to expand your existing keyboard setup as a slave device (a la Poly Evolver).
I still own a Muse Receptor, which I loved at the time for its self-contained approach (ex E-mu folks were involved in the design), but also its ability to go deeper (VST editing). It just never caught on / was ahead of its time / was constrained by hardware expandability / noisy fan + HDD, etc.
Perhaps the Lo-Fi Rompler sound is exactly why people lust after Fairlights and Emulators. Does it sound dated? Meh, nor more so than the Tom Sawyer filter sweep on an analog synth but people want things for a specific reason. Old fuzz pedals, old amps, old guitars all sound "Dated" but perhaps that's the sound the player wants. Hell, people here (including myself) want a new DX to be released but to some people the FM piano is an awfully dated sound.
I'd take an 8-op FS1R with analogue filters, though that's a different proposition than sample playback. My objection to a "sampler" lies in the workflow and control.
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I'd rather see something that connects to a computer (or tablet) for deep-editing purposes (i.e., for building a voice model a la Kyma), but can be used standalone–I'd want such a device to function as a drum machine (pads) or synthesizer (keys) first and foremost, not simply as a controller a la Maschine. Keep the device interface knobby / simple / musical.
The risk, though, is that you end up with a fancy ROMpler with analogue filters, should someone decide that they don't care to go deeper. The presets would tend to stagnate over time, and you'd end up with a clichéd sound that would need to disappear from the public's consciousness in the manner of a Roland D-50.
Alternately, a SampleCell-style PCIe card (or USB-based outboard chassis) with analogue filters and (multiple) audio outputs would be pretty cool, maybe as a modular counterpart to the above instruments. This would allow you to add voices in an all-computer environment, or (as standalone box) to expand your existing keyboard setup as a slave device (a la Poly Evolver).
I still own a Muse Receptor, which I loved at the time for its self-contained approach (ex E-mu folks were involved in the design), but also its ability to go deeper (VST editing). It just never caught on / was ahead of its time / was constrained by hardware expandability / noisy fan + HDD, etc.
Perhaps the Lo-Fi Rompler sound is exactly why people lust after Fairlights and Emulators. Does it sound dated? Meh, nor more so than the Tom Sawyer filter sweep on an analog synth but people want things for a specific reason. Old fuzz pedals, old amps, old guitars all sound "Dated" but perhaps that's the sound the player wants. Hell, people here (including myself) want a new DX to be released but to some people the FM piano is an awfully dated sound.
I'd take an 8-op FS1R with analogue filters, though that's a different proposition than sample playback. My objection to a "sampler" lies in the workflow and control.
No I totally understand your objection but that simply just means a sampler isn't for you, where as for Razmo or myself it would be perfectly fine. There's a lot of hurdles with recording reel to reel on tape....yet some people prefer that. It just comes down to an individuals wants and needs. If you feel a sampler is too convoluted or cumbersome...don't get it.
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Hey Razmo, what are your thoughts on the Korg Microsampler? I think somehow expanding on it might be where this idea is headed. Instant gratification and instant editing.
Sure... I know the Microsampler, and it is a bit in the right direction... but the Microsampler is missing one of the important aspects... analog VCF/VCA etc... if the analog aspect of my idear is taken out, I don't see that it would fare very well at all, it's the hybrid architecture that would make it interesting, and possibly some more performance oriented features. it has to offer a performer something special... it's a challenge yes, but in my view not an impossible one.
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I'd rather see something that connects to a computer (or tablet) for deep-editing purposes (i.e., for building a voice model a la Kyma), but can be used standalone–I'd want such a device to function as a drum machine (pads) or synthesizer (keys) first and foremost, not simply as a controller a la Maschine. Keep the device interface knobby / simple / musical.
The risk, though, is that you end up with a fancy ROMpler with analogue filters, should someone decide that they don't care to go deeper. The presets would tend to stagnate over time, and you'd end up with a clichéd sound that would need to disappear from the public's consciousness in the manner of a Roland D-50.
Alternately, a SampleCell-style PCIe card (or USB-based outboard chassis) with analogue filters and (multiple) audio outputs would be pretty cool, maybe as a modular counterpart to the above instruments. This would allow you to add voices in an all-computer environment, or (as standalone box) to expand your existing keyboard setup as a slave device (a la Poly Evolver).
I still own a Muse Receptor, which I loved at the time for its self-contained approach (ex E-mu folks were involved in the design), but also its ability to go deeper (VST editing). It just never caught on / was ahead of its time / was constrained by hardware expandability / noisy fan + HDD, etc.
Perhaps the Lo-Fi Rompler sound is exactly why people lust after Fairlights and Emulators. Does it sound dated? Meh, nor more so than the Tom Sawyer filter sweep on an analog synth but people want things for a specific reason. Old fuzz pedals, old amps, old guitars all sound "Dated" but perhaps that's the sound the player wants. Hell, people here (including myself) want a new DX to be released but to some people the FM piano is an awfully dated sound.
I'd take an 8-op FS1R with analogue filters, though that's a different proposition than sample playback. My objection to a "sampler" lies in the workflow and control.
Sure... an FM synth with VCF/VCA would be cool, but it would defy one of the things I had in mind with the sampler; instant gratification... programing FM synthesis is a f...... pain in the neck, it is practically impossible to get what you're after, and it takes a long time to program those random outcomes.
My reason for wanting a sampler is as I allready explained; it's fast and you have all the modulation going on in the samples themselves, making the rest of the signal chain work more as a "Template"... This means that you do not have to be a sound design wizard to come up with good material, that you can use preset templates for the two sample oscillators... if the sample oscillators could time stretch on the fly as well, it would be even better, as modulation inherent in the samples would keep their time settings no matter where you play on the keyboard (like VariPhrase on V-Synth XT).
Actually I'm selling all my gear at the moment, except for my V-Synth and E5000 Ultra... simply because these two machines can do almost all and everything I need right now... and I get there A LOT faster because I'm using samples instead of spending hours on sounddesigning from static boring waveforms all the time... sure you can not do all with samplers, and for sure the other synthesis types are also intriguing and good (afterall that is what we sample with the samplers hehe)... but it's not like DSI are goinf to make samplers for the rest of their life, just because I'm asking for ONE single product with sample oscillators?
I really do think there is a market for such a sampler keyboard, as long as it is well thought out, and have that hybrid construction... I really hope they will visit this idear just once... hell, you could more or less just take the REV2 or the P12 signal path, and replace the oscillators with sample oscillators, and throw in some sort of storage medium... done! ... as long as the UI is of course altered to make it performance oriented :)
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And one HUGE thing more to consider an advantage of such a sampler is the vast amount of samples available on the internet, and how easy it is to create samples yourself... plus all the sounds impossible to synthesize like real instruments, vocal phrases, nature sound effects etc... one of the biggest problems I've had with DSI instruments is that most of the presets is completely useless to me for the genre I do... many probably know of this "dilemma"... even though my P12 is a monster synth, I rarely use it, because the presets just do not cut it for me, and it takes too long for me to program them... i want to make music, not sound design hundreds of sounds before starting to compose my music...
That's where samples are a god sent... you can always find something out there, or you can sample it yourself really fast...
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Ohh... and by the way... IF there are no interest in a modern hybrid sampling synthesizer keyboard, then I do not understand why the Emulator 1 & 2, and even the version 3 with analog filters fetch these horrible second hand prices still? ... why people still pay extreme sums for the SP1200 etc.? ... this alone contradicts that a modern hybrid sampling keyboard and groovebox should be unwanted?
Look at ANY older sampler from the 80's that had analog parts, and they seem to still go for a lot higher rates than the older digital ones... look at what en E-MU Ultra cost when they were released back then (more than 4000 US dollars)... today they are costing almost nothing, but an old AKAI with analog filter, or even an Ensoniq Mirage cost almost the same as an Ultra... people want the hybrid approach... they want the analog VCF and VCA in their samplers, just like they want it with their subtractive synthesizers and everything else :D
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A computer is still easier by far–if you know your way around EXS24, for example, you can get a device multi-sampled pretty quickly, with velocity levels (I actually still use a fifteen-year-old template for this very thing). And, you can automate the sample generation / processing / etc.
You just cannot do that with an E4, on its own (with its limited sample RAM and velocity layers) as easily; in general, I used computer-based editors such as Peak or Spark to handle sample maintenance in the old days (over SMDI or MIDI SDS, for other stuff).
I'm not as sold on the E-mu rack hardware thing as you are–to me, the Emulator X + PCI card was the beginning of the writing on the wall for that concept, which is why I'd rather see a hybrid that doesn't attempt to do too much with a tiny interface.
And while I agree with you that it'd be nice to run samples through analogue filter ICs in a modern instrument, that's no longer enough to justify the R&D required (witness the discussions on the Quantum regarding the lack of FM, even when the rest of the engine is more-than-well-equipped).
It's gotta be a fully-fledged digital instrument, or, alternately, an analogue add-on to an existing digital processing core, with the understanding that, if it's fairly well engineered, that it may outlive the lifespan of the computer systems used to design it in the first place!
I'd be happy with an iPad-based waveform/model editor, some control knobs, decent multimode filters, and a bunch of analogue outs.
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A computer is still easier by far–if you know your way around EXS24, for example, you can get a device multi-sampled pretty quickly, with velocity levels (I actually still use a fifteen-year-old template for this very thing). And, you can automate the sample generation / processing / etc.
You just cannot do that with an E4, on its own (with its limited sample RAM and velocity layers) as easily; in general, I used computer-based editors such as Peak or Spark to handle sample maintenance in the old days (over SMDI or MIDI SDS, for other stuff).
I'm not as sold on the E-mu rack hardware thing as you are–to me, the Emulator X + PCI card was the beginning of the writing on the wall for that concept, which is why I'd rather see a hybrid that doesn't attempt to do too much with a tiny interface.
And while I agree with you that it'd be nice to run samples through analogue filter ICs in a modern instrument, that's no longer enough to justify the R&D required (witness the discussions on the Quantum regarding the lack of FM, even when the rest of the engine is more-than-well-equipped).
It's gotta be a fully-fledged digital instrument, or, alternately, an analogue add-on to an existing digital processing core, with the understanding that, if it's fairly well engineered, that it may outlive the lifespan of the computer systems used to design it in the first place!
I'd be happy with an iPad-based waveform/model editor, some control knobs, decent multimode filters, and a bunch of analogue outs.
Now I think we just have to agree on disagreeing here, because I really do not agree with you on this, as it is a matter of opinion here... I'm saying this because I myself am the contradiction to what you are saying... I want a hardware sampler keyboard more than a computer integrated one... I do not use computers, and I am not the only one with that take on things, wanting to stay as much away from a computer screen as possible... and I am not even the most stubborn when it comes to that, as I like computer editors a lot :)
And I guess that we will never see if you or I am right in our assumptions until someone like DSI or Waldorf create such a machine.... which I still hope :D
I will not disagree with you in that a computer sampler is more easy to use, and more practical because of both processing power and storage fascillities... sure... but for us who do NOT want to use computer softsynths, and who really want a hardware device, we simply cannot use that argument for anything... also the computer world have ONE major flaw with regards to this... as soon as the company do not sell the sampler anymore, they stop production and support of the software meaning, that a hardware sampler would hold it's own a hell of a lot longer than a software one.
Another thing is, that the whole performance aspect is lost on a computer... you do not want to stand on a scene with a laptop, a keyboard and a mouse if you are a performer... that is why a hardware interface, specifically designed for such a sampler keyboard would be preferred by performers. And as far as I hear it when Dave talks about products, he want to make instruments for the performing musician foremost, or at least that is what I make of what he has been saying.
And regarding the Quantum and FM... this is just the usual "we can not get enough" problem ... users just cannot ever get enough, they want it all, and they all want different things, and constantly bicker and argue what is most important and what is not.... just like we do right now over this dream of mine :D
But as I wrote... we just disagree and peace with that, I don't mind, my dream still stands... and maybe I'll just have to keep on dreaming :D
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My reason for wanting a sampler is as I allready explained; it's fast and you have all the modulation going on in the samples themselves, making the rest of the signal chain work more as a "Template"... This means that you do not have to be a sound design wizard to come up with good material, that you can use preset templates for the two sample oscillators... if the sample oscillators could time stretch on the fly as well, it would be even better, as modulation inherent in the samples would keep their time settings no matter where you play on the keyboard (like VariPhrase on V-Synth XT).
Actually I'm selling all my gear at the moment, except for my V-Synth and E5000 Ultra... simply because these two machines can do almost all and everything I need right now... and I get there A LOT faster because I'm using samples instead of spending hours on sounddesigning from static boring waveforms all the time... sure you can not do all with samplers, and for sure the other synthesis types are also intriguing and good (afterall that is what we sample with the samplers hehe)... but it's not like DSI are goinf to make samplers for the rest of their life, just because I'm asking for ONE single product with sample oscillators?
No doubt. I know they don't check all the boxes for you, but i recently put the Kurzweil back in my lineup. Making sounds from good samples is like being already half way to the finish line when you start. I'm convinced I could make a granular sound using V.A.S.T. -- even though it wasn't designed for such... it's just that powerful.
But yeah... I'd like to see DSI compete with Waldorf with a modern sampler / granular / wavetable / FMish monstrosity.
If not, Waldorf will get my dough -- though I hope they decide to at least make a 12 voice version.
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My reason for wanting a sampler is as I allready explained; it's fast and you have all the modulation going on in the samples themselves, making the rest of the signal chain work more as a "Template"... This means that you do not have to be a sound design wizard to come up with good material, that you can use preset templates for the two sample oscillators... if the sample oscillators could time stretch on the fly as well, it would be even better, as modulation inherent in the samples would keep their time settings no matter where you play on the keyboard (like VariPhrase on V-Synth XT).
Actually I'm selling all my gear at the moment, except for my V-Synth and E5000 Ultra... simply because these two machines can do almost all and everything I need right now... and I get there A LOT faster because I'm using samples instead of spending hours on sounddesigning from static boring waveforms all the time... sure you can not do all with samplers, and for sure the other synthesis types are also intriguing and good (afterall that is what we sample with the samplers hehe)... but it's not like DSI are goinf to make samplers for the rest of their life, just because I'm asking for ONE single product with sample oscillators?
No doubt. I know they don't check all the boxes for you, but i recently put the Kurzweil back in my lineup. Making sounds from good samples is like being already half way to the finish line when you start. I'm convinced I could make a granular sound using V.A.S.T. -- even though it wasn't designed for such... it's just that powerful.
But yeah... I'd like to see DSI compete with Waldorf with a modern sampler / granular / wavetable / FMish monstrosity.
If not, Waldorf will get my dough -- though I hope they decide to at least make a 12 voice version.
I've been really disappointed with the recent Kurzweil stuff. I do appreciate that they are doing lower priced models but ditching 5 pin midi is just stupid. Actually a Kurzweil/DSI collaboration would be interesting.
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Very interesting thread this is.
I have Clavia nord wave that reads samples and processes in subtractive synthesis manner with various kinds of filters like Formant Filter or Multi Peak Filter etc, and also does 6-op FM synthesis, but that's all in digital so may be out of Razmo's scope. It still is a good instrument though.
I did have KORG DSS-1, and E-mu Emax S.E with digital sampling capability coupled with analog VCF/VCA, and in fact modulating samples with their twin oscillators. DSS-1 was able to hard sync the samples. Emax S.E had this Transform Multiplication Synthesis that analyzes two samples in sort of reverse-FFT manner and resynthesizes by multiplying the amplitudes of the common harmonics only in FFT manner. Although it took several tens of minutes to calculate (!!) the Emax S.E was able to make the samples "talk" by analyzing/re-synthesizing a sample with a human voice.
AND as mentioned, both DSS-1 and Emax had analog VCF/VCA. They were very interesting.
BTW, the rack module version DSM-1 didn't have hard sync, and filter resonance, only the keyboard model DSS-1 had.
So may be Razmo want a modern edition of these I suppose, and I think it's not a bad idea.
I do agree that iPad or PC/Mac software samplers offer a great UI and storage capacity, but I also do want to see a hybrid sampling synth with keyboard and knobs. That's part of the reason why I still keep and use the very first edition of Roland V-Synth the keyboard model, although it's full digital it does have TB-filter modeling from Ver.2, and lots of cool stuffs like VariPhrase, polyphonic Feedback Oscillator, TimeTrip pad, Side Band Filter, tons of modeling processors/resonators and so on.
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I've been really disappointed with the recent Kurzweil stuff. I do appreciate that they are doing lower priced models but ditching 5 pin midi is just stupid. Actually a Kurzweil/DSI collaboration would be interesting.
I haven't followed the rest of their line, but I'm really happy with the build quality and connectivity of my Kurzweil PC3K6...
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61yAHxrKueL._SL1500_.jpg)
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I've been really disappointed with the recent Kurzweil stuff. I do appreciate that they are doing lower priced models but ditching 5 pin midi is just stupid. Actually a Kurzweil/DSI collaboration would be interesting.
I haven't followed the rest of their line, but I'm really happy with the build quality and connectivity of my Kurzweil PC3K6...
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61yAHxrKueL._SL1500_.jpg)
They are slowly phasing the PC line out sadly.
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Very interesting thread this is.
I have Clavia nord wave that reads samples and processes in subtractive synthesis manner with various kinds of filters like Formant Filter or Multi Peak Filter etc, and also does 6-op FM synthesis, but that's all in digital so may be out of Razmo's scope. It still is a good instrument though.
I did have KORG DSS-1, and E-mu Emax S.E with digital sampling capability coupled with analog VCF/VCA, and in fact modulating samples with their twin oscillators. DSS-1 was able to hard sync the samples. Emax S.E had this Transform Multiplication Synthesis that analyzes two samples in sort of reverse-FFT manner and resynthesizes by multiplying the amplitudes of the common harmonics only in FFT manner. Although it took several tens of minutes to calculate (!!) the Emax S.E was able to make the samples "talk" by analyzing/re-synthesizing a sample with a human voice.
AND as mentioned, both DSS-1 and Emax had analog VCF/VCA. They were very interesting.
BTW, the rack module version DSM-1 didn't have hard sync, and filter resonance, only the keyboard model DSS-1 had.
So may be Razmo want a modern edition of these I suppose, and I think it's not a bad idea.
I do agree that iPad or PC/Mac software samplers offer a great UI and storage capacity, but I also do want to see a hybrid sampling synth with keyboard and knobs. That's part of the reason why I still keep and use the very first edition of Roland V-Synth the keyboard model, although it's full digital it does have TB-filter modeling from Ver.2, and lots of cool stuffs like VariPhrase, polyphonic Feedback Oscillator, TimeTrip pad, Side Band Filter, tons of modeling processors/resonators and so on.
Yeah... I have the V-Synth XT, and if that only had VCF/VCA... wow... I know about the Nord Wave, and find that it reminds me a lot about the Blofeld in certain ways actually, but certainly a powerful sample manipulator... I also had the DSS-1... really nice analog sound, but a horribly large and heavy monster that is! :D
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I actually would love the synth to have a body like this
(https://smlycdn.akamaized.net/data/product2/2/36e5d0abd2764b6eb6a89ffad3478e1a7520eab1_l.jpg)
Just so I can lay other stuff on top of it and save myself a stand. ;)
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I actually would love the synth to have a body like this
(https://smlycdn.akamaized.net/data/product2/2/36e5d0abd2764b6eb6a89ffad3478e1a7520eab1_l.jpg)
Just so I can lay other stuff on top of it and save myself a stand. ;)
It's like a built-in pedal board !!!!
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Yeah... I remember when I had my Eminent 310 Unique organ... nice top plate to put stuff onto :D ... but these days my studio table has a built in top plate for this, and the space between this and the desktop area beneath it has rackmounting holes... so if such a keyboard were to stand on my desktop, it would simply block all the rack gear behind it :D ... so that is not for me... I'm actually going to buy a Roland A-49 in the coming week, just to get the keys slimmed down to minimum space requirements on my desktop... and then not look back at any keyboard synth ever again... and just hope that IF DSI makes a sampler synthesizer one day, that it will be rackmountable in a 4U rackspace :D ... same goes for Quantum.
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Yeah... I remember when I had my Eminent 310 Unique organ... nice top plate to put stuff onto :D ... but these days my studio table has a built in top plate for this, and the space between this and the desktop area beneath it has rackmounting holes... so if such a keyboard were to stand on my desktop, it would simply block all the rack gear behind it :D ... so that is not for me... I'm actually going to buy a Roland A-49 in the coming week, just to get the keys slimmed down to minimum space requirements on my desktop... and then not look back at any keyboard synth ever again... and just hope that IF DSI makes a sampler synthesizer one day, that it will be rackmountable in a 4U rackspace :D ... same goes for Quantum.
History dictates that Waldorf will make a desktop module that may or may not be rack mountable... but +1 for the hope.
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Yeah... I remember when I had my Eminent 310 Unique organ... nice top plate to put stuff onto :D ... but these days my studio table has a built in top plate for this, and the space between this and the desktop area beneath it has rackmounting holes... so if such a keyboard were to stand on my desktop, it would simply block all the rack gear behind it :D ... so that is not for me... I'm actually going to buy a Roland A-49 in the coming week, just to get the keys slimmed down to minimum space requirements on my desktop... and then not look back at any keyboard synth ever again... and just hope that IF DSI makes a sampler synthesizer one day, that it will be rackmountable in a 4U rackspace :D ... same goes for Quantum.
As long as there is a keyboard version AND rack version we'll both be happy.
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Yeah... I remember when I had my Eminent 310 Unique organ... nice top plate to put stuff onto :D ... but these days my studio table has a built in top plate for this, and the space between this and the desktop area beneath it has rackmounting holes... so if such a keyboard were to stand on my desktop, it would simply block all the rack gear behind it :D ... so that is not for me... I'm actually going to buy a Roland A-49 in the coming week, just to get the keys slimmed down to minimum space requirements on my desktop... and then not look back at any keyboard synth ever again... and just hope that IF DSI makes a sampler synthesizer one day, that it will be rackmountable in a 4U rackspace :D ... same goes for Quantum.
As long as there is a keyboard version AND rack version we'll both be happy.
I believe that a law should be made, that force synthesizer companies to make both keyboard, desktop and rackmount versions of any product :D